Recommendation? 440C vs D2 steel for a Ganzo knife?

[Danke42]

I searched through Hackenslash 's post that you quoted and didn't see a single mention of Microtech. Is there a discussion of Microtechs somewhere else in this thread?

Kinda like when Homer explains why it's OK to steal cable.

 

[jbmonkey]

I've had good 440C on more expensive knives and I've had really bad 440C on cheap knives.

thats cause the cheap knives are not 440c. they mislabel them all the time.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

You do realize that the "legitimacy" comment was preceded by "a point that's been made elsewhere," which points to it being something someone else has said. Jumping on his case for quoting someone else and following it up with "I quoted you" is very questionable.

Yes, I did notice that. The thing is that it was a point Chronovore himself made in other threads. The reason he said "a point that's been made elsewhere," is because it was a sneaky way to insinuate that many others agree with that particular argument. This battle has been waging over multiple threads. So taken in the context of this thread alone I can see how you came to that conclusion.
I'd also like to point out that the point was never made. He argued the point vociferously, but never quite made it.

Probably the best thread to check out is this one. Oh, and have some popcorn ready cuz it's a doozy!
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-latest-ganzo-firebird-d2-knives.1726486/
It should give a very clear idea on where many of us stand on the subject. Especially chronovore.

Regarding Marfione & Microtech.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that whole thing about how he copied the 0777 with the Matrix a huge f@#k you to Kai/ZT after some kind of argument regarding the subframe lock? Not condoning Marfione's actions here. I've heard he can be a less than pleasant person when his dander is up. Just pointing out how the situations differ. Plus I'm pretty sure Microtech would love to see the cloners/counterfeiters go away completely as well. Considering how many of their designs have been stolen.

 

[Danke42]

Yes, I did notice that. The thing is that it was a point Chronovore himself made in other threads. The reason he said "a point that's been made elsewhere," is because it was a sneaky way to insinuate that many others agree with that particular argument. This battle has been waging over multiple threads. So taken in the context of this thread alone I can see how you came to that conclusion.
I'd also like to point out that the point was never made. He argued the point vociferously, but never quite made it.

Probably the best thread to check out is this one. Oh, and have some popcorn ready cuz it's a doozy!
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-latest-ganzo-firebird-d2-knives.1726486/
It should give a very clear idea on where many of us stand on the subject. Especially chronovore.

Regarding Marfione & Microtech.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that whole thing about how he copied the 0777 with the Matrix a huge f@#k you to Kai/ZT after some kind of argument regarding the subframe lock? Not condoning Marfione's actions here. I've heard he can be a less than pleasant person when his dander is up. Just pointing out how the situations differ. Plus I'm pretty sure Microtech would love to see the cloners/counterfeiters go away completely as well. Considering how many of their designs have been stolen.

No kidding. As seen on TV case lots of Microtech Swtichblades all with "factory" boxes and branding etc but all 100% fake. Being seized at LaGuardia incoming from China.

Makes you wonder about those folks on Reddit etc. with a stack of ten Benchmades or Microtechs that they're moving out at half price. They swear they're real because they have them NIB.

 

[soc_monki]

No kidding. As seen on TV case lots of Microtech Swtichblades all with "factory" boxes and branding etc but all 100% fake. Being seized at LaGuardia incoming from China.

Makes you wonder about those folks on Reddit etc. with a stack of ten Benchmades or Microtechs that they're moving out at half price. They swear they're real because they have them NIB.

That's because they're probably not authentic. Having a couple of one knife is believable, but having 10 Infidels or combat troodons is a little fishy imo.

I wouldn't buy a microtech anyway. Autos do nothing for me, and I also don't like how Marfione stole the 0777 design. At least he did quit making them though...

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I searched through Hackenslash 's post that you quoted and didn't see a single mention of Microtech. Is there a discussion of Microtechs somewhere else in this thread?

No, which was sort of my point. I was addressing the "two camps" theory that he put forth. If the "IP theft camp" is legit, I'd expect those people to also put Microtech in that box. But, I suspect that a lot of the ones who say they’re in the IP theft camp when their actual issue with is with Ganzo being Chinese. I'd much prefer folks do what you've done and just say they won't buy Chinese knives rather than come up with some BS moral argument that they don't really believe. If someone says they hate Ganzo because they’re clones, but they don’t care about Microtech ripping off designs, then that makes their statement suspicious.

 

[craytab]

No, which was sort of my point. I was addressing the "two camps" theory that he put forth. If the "IP theft camp" is legit, I'd expect those people to also put Microtech in that box. But, I suspect that a lot of the ones who say they’re in the IP theft camp when their actual issue with is with Ganzo being Chinese. I'd much prefer folks do what you've done and just say they won't buy Chinese knives rather than come up with some BS moral argument that they don't really believe. If someone says they hate Ganzo because they’re clones, but they don’t care about Microtech ripping off designs, then that makes their statement suspicious.

You need to reread what most of the anti-ganzo folks have said on this topic.

 

[DocJD]

And the "anti-'s" maybe also need to reread and open their minds a little ?

I'm somewhere in the middle , the absolute worst place to be .

 

[Hackenslash]

Examples of IP theft in America are often raised to contrast and legitimize IP theft from China. I don’t think those arguments stand the test of reason.

IP infringement in America (or anrywhere the concept is honored) is different than in China.

In this part of the world, contesting manufacturers have the legal right to negotiate a settlement between each side. If that fails, they have the right go to court and let law and/or arbitration find a resolution.

A few examples of IP strife in the western world are the Benchmade Spydiehole, the Matrix/Natrix, the Ritter/Hogue Grip and the proliferation of “Buck 110s”. Each of these are different and should be handled individually.

First, each of these instances has a demonsrabale resolution.

In the Benchmade/Spydiehole debacle, there’s a “gentleman’s agreement” inferred by Mr. Glesser and Mr. De Asis
on each side. We, as consumers, don’t have a right to demand more.

In the case of the Ritter knives, we’ve been assured by Mr. Ritter that there are no issues between him and Mr. Pardue. If we can’t trust the singular force entrusted with the rights of knife users, our hobby might be doomed from the get-go.

The Matrix/Natrix issue is just a little bizarre. We know there were attempts at litigation. We know Microtech no longer produces the Matrix. We know that Kershaw proudly stamps the sub-frame lock patent number on each specimen, although Kershaw remains chippy over it. We know that a popular, internet knife reviewer faced libel charges from Microtech for commenting on the sub-frame lock kerfluffle.

It’s obvious to a casual observer that the legal process has been active and working here.

The Buck 110 issue is unresolved...but the next time someone defends clones by braying “they copied the Buck 110”, I’ll throw it back in their court and ask them to prove some one didn’t make it first. We’re 50 years removed from the 110; at some point the accuser needs to prove the property of Buck.

I know I’m running too long, but please bear with me.

Each of these examples of IP infringement show some kind of resolution. It might be a gentleman’s agreement, a court settlement or binding agreements made out of court. Regardless, there are avenues in the western world to gain satisfaction and win protection from IP infringement.

There are no such avenues available to western manufacturers under Chinese IP law.

There, that’s it...and it took too many words.

Don’t defend Ganzo IP theft with examples of IP theft in America. These are two different worlds and there is no “apples to apples” equivalent.

 

[DocJD]

Examples of IP theft in America are often raised to contrast and legitimize IP theft from China. I don’t think those arguments stand the test of reason.

IP infringement in America (or anrywhere the concept is honored) is different than in China.

In this part of the world, contesting manufacturers have the legal right to negotiate a settlement between each side. If that fails, they have the right go to court and let law and/or arbitration find a resolution.

A few examples of IP strife in the western world are the Benchmade Spydiehole, the Matrix/Natrix, the Ritter/Hogue Grip and the proliferation of “Buck 110s”. Each of these are different and should be handled individually.

First, each of these instances has a demonsrabale resolution.

In the Benchmade/Spydiehole debacle, there’s a “gentleman’s agreement” inferred by Mr. Glesser and Mr. De Asis
on each side. We, as consumers, don’t have a right to demand more.

In the case of the Ritter knives, we’ve been assured by Mr. Ritter that there are no issues between him and Mr. Pardue. If we can’t trust the singular force entrusted with the rights of knife users, our hobby might be doomed from the get-go.

The Matrix/Natrix issue is just a little bizarre. We know there were attempts at litigation. We know Microtech no longer produces the Matrix. We know that Kershaw proudly stamps the sub-frame lock patent number on each specimen, although Kershaw remains chippy over it. We know that a popular, internet knife reviewer faced libel charges from Microtech for commenting on the sub-frame lock kerfluffle.

It’s obvious to a casual observer that the legal process has been active and working here.

The Buck 110 issue is unresolved...but the next time someone defends clones by braying “they copied the Buck 110”, I’ll throw it back in their court and ask them to prove some one didn’t make it first. We’re 50 years removed from the 110; at some point the accuser needs to prove the property of Buck.

I know I’m running too long, but please bear with me.

Each of these examples of IP infringement show some kind of resolution. It might be a gentleman’s agreement, a court settlement or binding agreements made out of court. Regardless, there are avenues in the western world to gain satisfaction and win protection from IP infringement.

There are no such avenues available to western manufacturers under Chinese IP law.

There, that’s it...and it took too many words.

Don’t defend Ganzo IP theft with examples of IP theft in America. These are two different worlds and there is no “apples to apples” equivalent.

As a lowly consumer , IP is really not high in my list of priorities .

I'm just trying to find the best values available . IP is a matter best left to the parties most concerned and the courts / governing agencies that have authority .

Is a product legal for me to buy ? If so than that's about my level of involvement .

I expect that's the case for the vast majority of regular people everywhere .

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

As a lowly consumer , IP is really not high in my list of priorities .

I'm just trying to find the best values available . IP is a matter best left to the parties most concerned and the courts / governing agencies that have authority .

Is a product legal for me to buy ? If so than that's about my level of involvement .

I expect that's the case for the vast majority of regular people everywhere .

Thats a very myopic, selfish and dangerous view to have
The more stolen crap you buy....
The more you hurt legitimate industry and empower the thieves.

It may be saving you $20-50 bucks, but as a whole, companies like Ganzo have stolen millions of dollars worth of profits from the people and companies who've invested the time & money into developing those products.
You saved a few bucks? Good for you. If all the rest of us lowly consumers held that same principle, innovative companies like Spyderco, Benchmade, Kai and Cold Steel would be forced to shut down. Also, new creators would never even bother. Since whatever they do will just be ripped off and sold cheaper.

 

[Chronovore]

Thats a very myopic, selfish and dangerous view to have
The more stolen crap you buy....
The more you hurt legitimate industry and empower the thieves.

It may be saving you $20-50 bucks, but as a whole, companies like Ganzo have stolen millions of dollars worth of profits from the people and companies who've invested the time & money into developing those products.
You saved a few bucks? Good for you. If all the rest of us lowly consumers held that same principle, innovative companies like Spyderco, Benchmade, Kai and Cold Steel would be forced to shut down. Also, new creators would never even bother. Since whatever they do will just be ripped off and sold cheaper.

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read through that previous thread to sort things out. Luckily, anyone who actually does will see my position laid out very clearly and be able to contrast it with the false attributions made here.

Now, should we talk about "theft"? We are using the word in two ways in this debate. First, you can steal a concrete thing in which you gain it and the victim loses it. Second, you can improperly copy a thing such that you gain it and the victim still has it. A consistent problem in arguments like the one made above is the conflation of these two types of theft.

Now, let me be absolutely clear. I think it is in poor taste to improperly copy the work of others regardless of the exact legal or geopolitical technicalities. However, there are at least three points that should be considered.

First, claims about "stolen profits" and harm to various companies are necessarily based on counterfactual premises. Effectively, they concern assumptions about what would have happened in alternate realities in which the copy did not exist. Such alternate realities are not the case. The exact nature of consumer decisions in those alternate realities are no more knowable than the future is in our reality.

Second, the fact is that we are talking about different geopolitical zones, cultures, legal systems, etc. This should be considered before using words like "illegal", "criminal", etc. It's definitely worth asking how much blame for apparent wrong-doing belongs to Ganzo and how much belongs to the systemic factors or actors which allow this copying to continue and no less allow Ganzo's copycat products to be sold through major American retailers such as Amazon.

Third, as evidenced by the OP's circumstances in this thread, Ganzo serves the global economy in a different capacity than many of its suggested victims. For instance, Ganzo distributes its copycat products in places where the copied product might not be readily available. How do some of the claims being made about Ganzo hold up in those cases? Is there a difference between Ganzo selling their lower-quality imitation of a Benchmade in America versus a foreign land where Benchmade isn't an option?

 

[Smiling]

Third, as evidenced by the OP's circumstances in this thread, Ganzo serves the global economy in a different capacity than many of its suggested victims. For instance, Ganzo distributes its copycat products in places where the copied product might not be readily available. How do some of the claims being made about Ganzo hold up in those cases? Is there a difference between Ganzo selling their lower-quality imitation of a Benchmade in America versus a foreign land where Benchmade isn't an option?

Just to say, the original products Ganzo copied ARE AVAILABLE here on Balkan, they're just more expensive than Ganzo, and OP's main concern is not to spend much.

Number of local webshops will have them and they'll get shipped to you faster than a knife from AliExpress.
I got my Warcraft Tanto in just 3 days and I ordered through reputable European webshop. I even got free shipping, my friend who bought that same knife had the same experience.
In case you're paying shipping because your order is under price limit for free shipping - shipping cost is just 5-10€ depending on the webshop.

 

[DocJD]

Thats a very myopic, selfish and dangerous view to have
The more stolen crap you buy....
The more you hurt legitimate industry and empower the thieves.

It may be saving you $20-50 bucks, but as a whole, companies like Ganzo have stolen millions of dollars worth of profits from the people and companies who've invested the time & money into developing those products.
You saved a few bucks? Good for you. If all the rest of us lowly consumers held that same principle, innovative companies like Spyderco, Benchmade, Kai and Cold Steel would be forced to shut down. Also, new creators would never even bother. Since whatever they do will just be ripped off and sold cheaper.

I totally disagree .

I've never bought a copied design because I thought it was just as good as the brand name original . Not the same quality at all and little or no customer service .

No knowledgeable consumer would make that mistake . At least , not twice .

That's why actual counterfeits are the real problem . They claim to be the name brand product under false pretense .

Spyderco has gotten a small fortune out me so I'm not suffering much guilt here . If I've now mostly stopped buying from them , it's because of MAPP and just not providing as much bang for buck as Cold Steel (for example) .

Don't believe any big name brand has lost a dime from me buying a few Ganzo products . It's not necessarily a zero sum game .

A line of consistently high quality product with great customer service will win customer loyalty to a brand . The guilt trips and shaming will accomplish nothing but hard feelings and alienation , IMO .

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read through that previous thread to sort things out. Luckily, anyone who actually does will see my position laid out very clearly and be able to contrast it with the false attributions made here.

Now, should we talk about "theft"? We are using the word in two ways in this debate. First, you can steal a concrete thing in which you gain it and the victim loses it. Second, you can improperly copy a thing such that you gain it and the victim still has it. A consistent problem in arguments like the one made above is the conflation of these two types of theft.

Now, let me be absolutely clear. I think it is in poor taste to improperly copy the work of others regardless of the exact legal or geopolitical technicalities. However, there are at least three points that should be considered.

First, claims about "stolen profits" and harm to various companies are necessarily based on counterfactual premises. Effectively, they concern assumptions about what would have happened in alternate realities in which the copy did not exist. Such alternate realities are not the case. The exact nature of consumer decisions in those alternate realities are no more knowable than the future is in our reality.

Second, the fact is that we are talking about different geopolitical zones, cultures, legal systems, etc. This should be considered before using words like "illegal", "criminal", etc. It's definitely worth asking how much blame for apparent wrong-doing belongs to Ganzo and how much belongs to the systemic factors or actors which allow this copying to continue and no less allow Ganzo's copycat products to be sold through major American retailers such as Amazon.

Third, as evidenced by the OP's circumstances in this thread, Ganzo serves the global economy in a different capacity than many of its suggested victims. For instance, Ganzo distributes its copycat products in places where the copied product might not be readily available. How do some of the claims being made about Ganzo hold up in those cases? Is there a difference between Ganzo selling their lower-quality imitation of a Benchmade in America versus a foreign land where Benchmade isn't an option?

I'll be quick
First, There are no assumptions made when Sal Glesser (founder and former head of Spyderco) himself has stated that these copycat companies in fact have in the past, currently do, and will continue to hurt his business.

Second, If you sell a product in another location, you must be aware of their specific laws. As I said before, My backyard. You play by my rules. Otherwise, pick up your ball and go home.

Third, The victims are NOT suggested! You constantly ignore the fact that there are actual statements from people who have truly been affected by Ganzo's thievery.
To answer your question. No. There isn't a difference. In this new global economy, If you want a Benchmade there is always a way to get it. Price does factor in though. I don't doubt that with some research the OP can find some other inexpensive alternatives besides Ganzo available.

 

[Smiling]

I totally disagree .

I've never bought a copied design because I thought it was just as good as the brand name original . Not the same quality at all and little or no customer service .

No knowledgeable consumer would make that mistake . At least , not twice .

That's why actual counterfeits are the real problem . They claim to be the name brand product under false pretense .

Spyderco has gotten a small fortune out me so I'm not suffering much guilt here . If I've now mostly stopped buying from them , it's because of MAPP and just not providing as much bang for buck as Cold Steel (for example) .

Don't believe any big name brand has lost a dime from me buying a few Ganzo products . It's not necessarily a zero sum game .

A line of consistently high quality product with great customer service will win customer loyalty to a brand . The guilt trips and shaming will accomplish nothing but hard feelings and alienation , IMO .

I agree

 

[craytab]

And the "anti-'s" maybe also need to reread and open their minds a little ?

I'm somewhere in the middle , the absolute worst place to be .

No thanks. There is only one right stance here. Sorry.

BTW, people in the middle don't constantly promote clones

 

[Chronovore]

I'll be quick
First, There are no assumptions made when Sal Glesser (founder and former head of Spyderco) himself has stated that these copycat companies in fact have in the past, currently do, and will continue to hurt his business.

Second, If you sell a product in another location, you must be aware of their specific laws. As I said before, My backyard. You play by my rules. Otherwise, pick up your ball and go home.

Third, The victims are NOT suggested! You constantly ignore the fact that there are actual statements from people who have truly been affected by Ganzo's thievery.
To answer your question. No. There isn't a difference. In this new global economy, If you want a Benchmade there is always a way to get it. Price does factor in though. I don't doubt that with some research the OP can find some other inexpensive alternatives besides Ganzo available.

For the first point, you side-stepped the logical argument entirely and waved your hands with an appeal to authority.

For the second point, are you asserting that a law was broken? These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States. So has either the government or the injured parties brought legal action? An important part of this point was the question over those "rules" and where both blame and appropriate activism might best be aimed.

For the third point, you claim that I "constantly ignore" a fact regarding the first point. (Would it be worth exploring the first point in more detail relative to such statements?) As far as this "new global economy", are we really there yet? I don't know for sure but I imagine that there are still parts of the global economy where you can readily get your hands on one of Ganzo's copycats but not the original. You are right that cost is a factor. It's certainly possible that in some places, you could get the Benchmade but it would be radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers. Of course, even in places where you can't get the Benchmade, you are right that you can probably find other alternatives besides Ganzo that don't come with all this baggage. (I've recommended a few other brands that might be available to the OP.)

Of course, two new issues jump out from that last paragraph. In the first of those new issues, the extreme price difference in remote parts of the world reduces to the price difference here. That's where we've seen arguments about competitive tiers. For instance, does the $20-something Ganzo copycat of a Benchmade really compete with the higher-quality Benchmade that costs several times as much and if so, to what extent? Ultimately, that discussion tends to run afoul of the logical problem from the first bold point.

In the second of those new issues, we have a very serious question. Is Ganzo alone in having baggage? For instance, what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here? In my estimation, that is a hundred times worse and a thousand times more dangerous than the copycat issue. That isn't to say "yeah but what about" as an excuse for Ganzo. That's an important question of consistency, scope, and priority for those who consistently choose to raise their activist torches in the anti-Ganzo crusade.

 

[craytab]

For the first point, you side-stepped the logical argument entirely and waved your hands with an appeal to authority.

For the second point, are you asserting that a law was broken? These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States. So has either the government or the injured parties brought legal action? An important part of this point was the question over those "rules" and where both blame and appropriate activism might best be aimed.

For the third point, you claim that I "constantly ignore" a fact regarding the first point. (Would it be worth exploring the first point in more detail relative to such statements?) As far as this "new global economy", are we really there yet? I don't know for sure but I imagine that there are still parts of the global economy where you can readily get your hands on one of Ganzo's copycats but not the original. You are right that cost is a factor. It's certainly possible that in some places, you could get the Benchmade but it would be radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers. Of course, even in places where you can't get the Benchmade, you are right that you can probably find other alternatives besides Ganzo that don't come with all this baggage. (I've recommended a few other brands that might be available to the OP.)

Of course, two new issues jump out from that last paragraph. In the first of those new issues, the extreme price difference in remote parts of the world reduces to the price difference here. That's where we've seen arguments about competitive tiers. For instance, does the $20-something Ganzo copycat of a Benchmade really compete with the higher-quality Benchmade that costs several times as much and if so, to what extent? Ultimately, that discussion tends to run afoul of the logical problem from the first bold point.

In the second of those new issues, we have a very serious question. Is Ganzo alone in having baggage? For instance, what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here? In my estimation, that is a hundred times worse and a thousand times more dangerous than the copycat issue. That isn't to say "yeah but what about" as an excuse for Ganzo. That's an important question of consistency, scope, and priority for those who consistently choose to raise their activist torches in the anti-Ganzo crusade.

I thought you were done arguing about this, at least that's what you said.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

For the first point, you side-stepped the logical argument entirely and waved your hands with an appeal to authority.

For the second point, are you asserting that a law was broken? These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States An important part of this point was the question over those "rules" and where both blame and appropriate activism might best be aimed.

For the third point, you claim that I "constantly ignore" a fact regarding the first point. (Would it be worth exploring the first point in more detail relative to such statements?) As far as this "new global economy", are we really there yet? I don't know for sure but I imagine that there are still parts of the global economy where you can readily get your hands on one of Ganzo's copycats but not the original. You are right that cost is a factor. It's certainly possible that in some places, you could get the Benchmade but it would be radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers. Of course, even in places where you can't get the Benchmade, you are right that you can probably find other alternatives besides Ganzo that don't come with all this baggage. (I've recommended a few other brands that might be available to the OP.)

Of course, two new issues jump out from that last paragraph. In the first of those new issues, the extreme price difference in remote parts of the world reduces to the price difference here. That's where we've seen arguments about competitive tiers. For instance, does the $20-something Ganzo copycat of a Benchmade really compete with the higher-quality Benchmade that costs several times as much and if so, to what extent? Ultimately, that discussion tends to run afoul of the logical problem from the first bold point.

In the second of those new issues, we have a very serious question. Is Ganzo alone in having baggage? For instance, what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here? In my estimation, that is a hundred times worse and a thousand times more dangerous than the copycat issue. That isn't to say "yeah but what about" as an excuse for Ganzo. That's an important question of consistency, scope, and priority for those who consistently choose to raise their activist torches in the anti-Ganzo crusade.

For the love of....... Sidestepped?!?! Appeal to authority??!!?? No! I would call that a statement of fact. Made by someone with direct and intimate experience on the subject. I am not making any "appeal to authority", I am deferring to authority. One that happens to be higher than myself (or you) when it comes to the effect of clones (Ganzo specifically) on our hobby. Yet you consistently dismiss this as theory or conjecture, because it destroys most of your narrative in support of Ganzo.
And considering you actually say the following in your very next statement...
"These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States. So has either the government or the injured parties brought legal action?"
So Amazon is now the foremost authority on what can be legally sold in the US? THAT is an appeal to authority.

Whenever presented with a fact you don't like, YOU side-step and just get more pretentious and drone on about things being "radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers" instead of saying "Too expensive there" or going completely off the reservation with statements like "what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here?" Instead of saying "Benchmade supports anti-gun politicians"

If he wasn't dead, I'd swear you were Gene Kelly. The way you tap dance around statements and facts with rhetoric and overly wordy statements meant to distract the reader from the fact that you really have no leg to stand on.