Recommendation? 440C vs D2 steel for a Ganzo knife?

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Chronovore said:
For the first point, you side-stepped the logical argument entirely and waved your hands with an appeal to authority.

For the second point, are you asserting that a law was broken? These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States. So has either the government or the injured parties brought legal action? An important part of this point was the question over those "rules" and where both blame and appropriate activism might best be aimed.

For the third point, you claim that I "constantly ignore" a fact regarding the first point. (Would it be worth exploring the first point in more detail relative to such statements?) As far as this "new global economy", are we really there yet? I don't know for sure but I imagine that there are still parts of the global economy where you can readily get your hands on one of Ganzo's copycats but not the original. You are right that cost is a factor. It's certainly possible that in some places, you could get the Benchmade but it would be radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers. Of course, even in places where you can't get the Benchmade, you are right that you can probably find other alternatives besides Ganzo that don't come with all this baggage. (I've recommended a few other brands that might be available to the OP.)

Of course, two new issues jump out from that last paragraph. In the first of those new issues, the extreme price difference in remote parts of the world reduces to the price difference here. That's where we've seen arguments about competitive tiers. For instance, does the $20-something Ganzo copycat of a Benchmade really compete with the higher-quality Benchmade that costs several times as much and if so, to what extent? Ultimately, that discussion tends to run afoul of the logical problem from the first bold point.

In the second of those new issues, we have a very serious question. Is Ganzo alone in having baggage? For instance, what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here? In my estimation, that is a hundred times worse and a thousand times more dangerous than the copycat issue. That isn't to say "yeah but what about" as an excuse for Ganzo. That's an important question of consistency, scope, and priority for those who consistently choose to raise their activist torches in the anti-Ganzo crusade.
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BLEEP BLEEP Defender Drone detected.
 
To quote Sal from a separate but recent and related discussion...

Sal Glesser said:
Thanx Jack. As Jack mentioned, An early "Economy", later name changed to Standard.

Some history;

The clip stamped out od the scale was considered very innovative at the time, and other companies used the stamped clip (to thin liners with the clip stamped out of the outer layer). We later learned that the clip being the same size as the hole would scissor cut the pocket, so we changed sizes and a later model used a separate screw in clip. Prices in Japan were going up due to the stronger yen. We made the less expensive model to fight the knock offs which had already begun. As Jack mentioned, the next "solution" to fight the "Knock offs" was the first generation Delica based on the "Standard pattern. We've been fighting "Knock offs" since the mid 80's. Talk about an unnecessary PITA.

sal
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Chronovore said:
For the first point, you side-stepped the logical argument entirely and waved your hands with an appeal to authority.

For the second point, are you asserting that a law was broken? These products are still on sale at the largest retailer in the United States. So has either the government or the injured parties brought legal action? An important part of this point was the question over those "rules" and where both blame and appropriate activism might best be aimed.

For the third point, you claim that I "constantly ignore" a fact regarding the first point. (Would it be worth exploring the first point in more detail relative to such statements?) As far as this "new global economy", are we really there yet? I don't know for sure but I imagine that there are still parts of the global economy where you can readily get your hands on one of Ganzo's copycats but not the original. You are right that cost is a factor. It's certainly possible that in some places, you could get the Benchmade but it would be radically cost-prohibitive to the point of not being a real option for native consumers. Of course, even in places where you can't get the Benchmade, you are right that you can probably find other alternatives besides Ganzo that don't come with all this baggage. (I've recommended a few other brands that might be available to the OP.)

Of course, two new issues jump out from that last paragraph. In the first of those new issues, the extreme price difference in remote parts of the world reduces to the price difference here. That's where we've seen arguments about competitive tiers. For instance, does the $20-something Ganzo copycat of a Benchmade really compete with the higher-quality Benchmade that costs several times as much and if so, to what extent? Ultimately, that discussion tends to run afoul of the logical problem from the first bold point.

In the second of those new issues, we have a very serious question. Is Ganzo alone in having baggage? For instance, what if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization whose policies over time had contributed to the underlying situation that the anti-China folks are up in arms about? What if an American knife company had donated money to members of a political organization that was actively trying to diminish or destroy a fundamental right of the American people that is arguably related to the hobby we have in common here? In my estimation, that is a hundred times worse and a thousand times more dangerous than the copycat issue. That isn't to say "yeah but what about" as an excuse for Ganzo. That's an important question of consistency, scope, and priority for those who consistently choose to raise their activist torches in the anti-Ganzo crusade.
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You accuse him of side stepping and appealing to authority because he cited testimony from a primary source that is one of the very few people who has actual hard information about how clones affect sales. That's not you being logical, that's you attempting to poison the well in service to an point.

It's become increasingly clear that you are heavily invested in defending Ganzo. I don't know why, but despite previous denials that's the position you have established.
 
Wow. I'm so glad I linked "appeal to authority" so that people could understand what that actually means with respect to logical arguments. I'm also glad that I clarified a later statement about another knife company only to have people whine, without addressing its reality or its place with respect to activism against knife companies.

This is why I bailed in the other thread. Taking time out of my day to write logical, comprehensive posts only to have them go unanswered, unconsidered, apparently not understood, or largely responded to with flagrant personal attacks, ranging from calling me a "drone" to criticizing my use of college-level English, is radically disappointing. Seeing the cheering section to such comments really depresses my faith in humanity.

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps at least posted something relevant and interesting. The existence of clones, though not necessarily Ganzo's clones, did cause Spyderco to take adaptive measures in the reference case. That involves a real cost.
 
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Chronovore said:
Wow. I'm so glad I linked "appeal to authority" so that people could understand what that actually means with respect to logical arguments. I'm also glad that I clarified a later statement about another knife company only to have people whine, without addressing its reality or its place with respect to activism against knife companies.

This is why I bailed in the other thread. Taking time out of my day to write logical, comprehensive posts only to have them go unanswered, unconsidered, apparently not understood, or largely responded to with flagrant personal attacks, ranging from calling me a "drone" to criticizing my use of college-level English, is radically disappointing. Seeing the cheering section to such comments really depresses my faith in humanity.

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps at least posted something relevant and interesting. The existence of clones, though not necessarily Ganzo's clones, did cause Spyderco to take adaptive measures in the references case. That involves a real cost.
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You badly misused a logical fallacy to try to win an argument and got called out on it. Now, rather than actually addressing that fact, you're begging the question by concluding that your posts are logical without proving or examining their logic.

You don't strike me as particularly logical or knowledgeable, you simply strike me as being educated, verbose and wanting to ethically justify and defend your purchase of Ganzo knives.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
You badly misused a logical fallacy to try to win an argument and got called out on it. Now, rather than actually addressing that fact, you're begging the question by concluding that your posts are logical without proving or examining their logic.

You don't strike me as particularly logical or knowledgeable, you simply strike me as being educated, verbose and wanting to ethically justify and defend your purchase of Ganzo knives.
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Beat me to it. :thumbsup:
 
Chronovore said:
Wow. I'm so glad I linked "appeal to authority" so that people could understand what that actually means with respect to logical arguments. I'm also glad that I clarified a later statement about another knife company only to have people whine, without addressing its reality or its place with respect to activism against knife companies.

This is why I bailed in the other thread. Taking time out of my day to write logical, comprehensive posts only to have them go unanswered, unconsidered, apparently not understood, or largely responded to with flagrant personal attacks, ranging from calling me a "drone" to criticizing my use of college-level English, is radically disappointing. Seeing the cheering section to such comments really depresses my faith in humanity.

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps at least posted something relevant and interesting. The existence of clones, though not necessarily Ganzo's clones, did cause Spyderco to take adaptive measures in the references case. That involves a real cost.
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Let me say this as plainly as I can... You are not above me. You are not smarter than me. You are not more enlightened than me.

My repeated rejections of your assertions in no way equates to my not understanding or considering your posts or the overall scenario. I simply and emphatically disagree with you. I make things for a living. I compete against Chinese manufacturers, the good and unethical ones. I know right from wrong and I will, when I can, make what to me, are easy choices for the right side. I see no need to over complicate this issue.

I've spent years reading, watching, and following @Sal Glesser . He has proven to the world to not just be a cutlery icon but a man worthy of admiration. I have tremendous respect for him and how he conducts himself.

Ganzo sucks.
 
Okay, that's fine. I suppose it doesn't matter if I was right on anything, or if I made solid points on anything, or if I was adhering to a higher standard of logic regardless of Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker 's interpretation. I gave credit to Eli Chaps Eli Chaps for contributing something meaningful to the discussion and just got a mini-lecture about being smart.

Look, I bothered here not just because of my perception of an angry mob with pitchforks, etc.; but an angry mod that is both dedicated to something that I don't think really helps our community and also tends to undermine itself in the way it argues. I could go into more detail but things like conflating tool quality and business ethics or attacking people personally reflects poorly upon a position.

Perhaps it was lost in too much text but I'd love to see everyone who care about some of these issues taking deeper and more effective steps to address them. (Kudos to those who already do.) On rights, take a minute to donate to Knife Rights. On accountability for the systemic factors that allow Ganzo to consistently profit from copycat knives in the United States, including through major retailers like Amazon; take up activism either politically or socially to change the system that allows that to be a profitable activity. The same goes for the anti-China folks and the actual causes for things like the trade balance or the prosperity of domestic manufacturing. On accountability for companies, the Benchmade example is very real but apart from saying it's "off the ranch" or "a distraction", it's yet another unaddressed point. Beyond being a matter of consistency or priorities for members taking up the activist mantle here, apply a point made by the anti-Ganzo crew and realize that it is happening in your "backyard".
 
Chronovore said:
Okay, that's fine. I suppose it doesn't matter if I was right on anything, or if I made solid points on anything, or if I was adhering to a higher standard of logic regardless of Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker 's interpretation. I gave credit to Eli Chaps Eli Chaps for contributing something meaningful to the discussion and just got a mini-lecture about being smart.

Look, I bothered here not just because of my perception of an angry mob with pitchforks, etc.; but an angry mod that is both dedicated to something that I don't think really helps our community and also tends to undermine itself in the way it argues. I could go into more detail but things like conflating tool quality and business ethics or attacking people personally reflects poorly upon a position.

Perhaps it was lost in too much text but I'd love to see everyone who care about some of these issues taking deeper and more effective steps to address them. (Kudos to those who already do.) On rights, take a minute to donate to Knife Rights. On accountability for the systemic factors that allow Ganzo to consistently profit from copycat knives in the United States, including through major retailers like Amazon; take up activism either politically or socially to change the system that allows that to be a profitable activity. The same goes for the anti-China folks and the actual causes for things like the trade balance or the prosperity of domestic manufacturing. On accountability for companies, the Benchmade example is very real but apart from saying it's "off the ranch" or "a distraction", it's yet another unaddressed point. Beyond being a matter of consistency or priorities for members taking up the activist mantle here, apply a point made by the anti-Ganzo crew and realize that it is happening in your "backyard".
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Logic isn't about interpretation, it's about proofs. If X then Y, so forth and so on. If any point in that chain is questionable or untrue then the end point isn't logical. You are announcing that your arguments are logical without doing the base work to demonstrate that they are and expecting us to fall into line because of your announcement. I don't simply disagree with your end conclusion, I disagree with many of your base assumptions and you've done nothing to prove them to me.
 
A) The company (Ganzo Knives) was built on theft of others property.

B) Any original designs for sale now are the fruit of a poison tree and inadmissible.

Yes theft is easy and dishonest people will encourage it in others as it makes them feel that their bad acts "aren't so bad" and "they've turned over a new leaf. That's irrelevant. Demanding that honest people participate actively or otherwise condone this under the banner of can't we compromise or open our minds is ludicrous.

How much theft is too much? 10%, 20%, more? Theft is OK, what other crimes "really aren't so bad if you look at it" mindset? Anything as long as it doesn't directly affect the apologists.
 
Let’s entertain for a nanosecond that the D2 original designs are the first step into legitimacy. If the company still manufactures stolen designs from Spyderco, Benchmade, Ontario etc. to this day, any notion of going straight is rendered insincere. That’s like promising to spend more time with the wife and kids and calling yourself a good man while continuing to cheat with other women.

I’ve opened my mind and arrived at the same conclusion. It cannot be right to support copycats.

But I fear we digress from the topic. If a consumer has a limited budget and all he can afford is a Ganzo, that’s on him. I do not judge. But I will continue to enjoy free speech and call out counterfeit/clone makers as I can.
 
Chronovore said:
Okay, that's fine. I suppose it doesn't matter if I was right on anything, or if I made solid points on anything, or if I was adhering to a higher standard of logic regardless of Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker 's interpretation. I gave credit to Eli Chaps Eli Chaps for contributing something meaningful to the discussion and just got a mini-lecture about being smart.

Look, I bothered here not just because of my perception of an angry mob with pitchforks, etc.; but an angry mod that is both dedicated to something that I don't think really helps our community and also tends to undermine itself in the way it argues. I could go into more detail but things like conflating tool quality and business ethics or attacking people personally reflects poorly upon a position.

Perhaps it was lost in too much text but I'd love to see everyone who care about some of these issues taking deeper and more effective steps to address them. (Kudos to those who already do.) On rights, take a minute to donate to Knife Rights. On accountability for the systemic factors that allow Ganzo to consistently profit from copycat knives in the United States, including through major retailers like Amazon; take up activism either politically or socially to change the system that allows that to be a profitable activity. The same goes for the anti-China folks and the actual causes for things like the trade balance or the prosperity of domestic manufacturing. On accountability for companies, the Benchmade example is very real but apart from saying it's "off the ranch" or "a distraction", it's yet another unaddressed point. Beyond being a matter of consistency or priorities for members taking up the activist mantle here, apply a point made by the anti-Ganzo crew and realize that it is happening in your "backyard".
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“Blah, blah, my logical argument got clowned. I agree! Donate to knife rights. Blah. Take up activism against companies that allow these turds to sell the knives I champion at every opportunity! While we’re at it, we should change China’s economy so they don’t make so much off these shit knives! Something, something Benchmade, in your own backyard.”

Lol. o_O
 
Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. D Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.
 
Chronovore said:
One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.
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I feel you for this one, and I'm sorry that anyone on this forum got to feel that way.

I'm not a Ganzo supporter but I'm not here to judge their customers either.

I got accused to be some dude who got banned in the past when I mentioned Chinese knives BTW, and also when I made thread about people who are really biased about Cold Steel :D
I got used to it :D
Chronovore said:
I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.
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And you got a point here, if their copycat knives sell less than their original knives, they might abandon them. I still wouldn't support them at all, but at the end of the day, we all have a right to choose ourselves, if you like their design or price, go ahead.

My personal concern would be that they sold me some different steel than one I agreed to buy.

Chronovore said:
From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.
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This sounds like a rather interesting game tho :D
 
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