Recommendation? 440C vs D2 steel for a Ganzo knife?

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Chronovore said:
Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.
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You just don't get it.
It's not about pitchforks and firebombing.

What you consistently fail to comprehend is this:
This is not a political debate. It's not about the global economy and understanding the geopolitical landscape.
It is about right and wrong.
Ganzo and their kin steal designs.
Legalities aside, That is wrong. No debate.
There is documented proof that such acts harm this hobby we love.
So yes, I will point this fact out any time I see the word Ganzo (or Eafengrow, or any of the others) in a thread.
That's it. Pretty simple actually.

I do suggest that you to edit your above statement. It comes across as childish, spiteful and vindictive. You are better than that.
 
Chronovore said:
Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.
Click to expand...
You're yet again simply announcing that your arguments stand rather than supporting them with evidence. And in this statement you're simply providing the evidence that your position is based on emotion rather than logic in that you'll buy one of the copycats that you claim not to support because we had the audacity to disagree with you. That's not a logical or rational response, it's the action of a petulant child.
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
You just don't get it.
It's not about pitchforks and firebombing.

What you consistently fail to comprehend is this:
This is not a political debate. It's not about the global economy and understanding the geopolitical landscape.
It is about right and wrong.
Ganzo and their kin steal designs.
Legalities aside, That is wrong. No debate.
There is documented proof that such acts harm this hobby we love.
So yes, I will point this fact out any time I see the word Ganzo (or Eafengrow, or any of the others) in a thread.
That's it. Pretty simple actually.

I do suggest that you to edit your above statement. It comes across as childish, spiteful and vindictive. You are better than that.
Click to expand...

I've addressed these points elsewhere. Eafengrow is another story. At least Ganzo uses real D2. Eafengrow is currently batting zero on steel confirmation tests. It's been mostly 8Cr13Mov and one was 5Cr15! :eek:

As far as suggesting that I edit my previous post due to it coming "across as childish, spiteful and vindictive", am I really "better than that"? As you suggested, I'm not on par with Atticus Finch or Gene Kelly. At least I have the courage of my convictions. So...

Congratulations! You are the first winner of our Unofficial Ganzo Salesperson game! I just bought one in your name.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
You're yet again simply announcing that your arguments stand rather than supporting them with evidence. And in this statement you're simply providing the evidence that your position is based on emotion rather than logic in that you'll buy one of the copycats that you claim not to support because we had the audacity to disagree with you. That's not a logical or rational response, it's the action of a petulant child.
Click to expand...

The logic is in the original arguments. I'm referring you back to them as you haven't properly dealt with them. There is nothing wrong with that. Then we've got yet another assertion about my motives or the basis of my argument. Luckily, I've already detailed that logic too. Speaking of...

Congratulations! You just sold another knife for Ganzo!
 
Chronovore said:
The logic is in the original arguments. I'm referring you back to them as you haven't properly dealt with them. There is nothing wrong with that. Then we've got yet another assertion about my motives or the basis of my argument. Luckily, I've already detailed that logic too. Speaking of...

Congratulations! You just sold another knife for Ganzo!
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I don't mind that at all. Given what you've proven about yourself in this thread I'll be happy to either bankrupt you or make you a liar one Ganzo at a time. I can continue indefinitely.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I don't mind that at all. Given what you've proven about yourself in this thread I'll be happy to either bankrupt you or make you a liar one Ganzo at a time. I can continue indefinitely.
Click to expand...

Like I said, proof is in the pudding. My previous posts are available for all to see.

Sorry, it's one countermeasure per burning torch and supplies are limited. (My fun budget for the month already supported a new Kizer from BladeHQ and a donation to Knife Rights.) If you really love Ganzo and you really want me to buy a large quantity of their knives, I'm going to have to figure out some kind of crowdfunding initiative or something...
 
Chronovore said:
Like I said, proof is in the pudding. My previous posts are available for all to see.

Sorry, it's one countermeasure per burning torch and supplies are limited. (My fun budget for the month already supported a new Kizer from BladeHQ and a donation to Knife Rights.) If you really love Ganzo and you really want me to buy a large quantity of their knives, I'm going to have to figure out some kind of crowdfunding initiative or something...
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And here you once again expose your character for all to see. In the end people do what they want to do and rationalize it however they see fit. You wanted to buy Ganzo knives from the beginning and you found your rationalization for it through your counter crusade. Nothing we said or failed to say was going to change the end result, you buying Ganzo knives, but now when you speak up about them we can point to this thread to demonstrate your actual motivation in defending them.
 
Planterz said:
It has always astonished me the lengths people will go to try to justify, to themselves and others, for being immoral and unethical.
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As I said, it was always and entirely about wanting to buy Ganzos. Either the logical arguments amazed us all into agreement and that could be used to buy them with a clean conscience, or our disagreement would cast us as villains to fight against, and striking out at villains could be used as the justification for the purchase.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
As I said, it was always and entirely about wanting to buy Ganzos. Either the logical arguments amazed us all into agreement and that could be used to buy them with a clean conscience, or our disagreement would cast us as villains to fight against, and striking out at villains could be used as the justification for the purchase.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget the supporting imagery of sharpened pitchforks and well-oiled torches.

Still, I appreciate the diversity of views in BladeForums. It helps prevent forming an echo chamber. I like hearing from those who do not share my opinions. In this case however, what’s right and wrong are plain to see. There is no rationalizing the theft of others’ works.

Chronovore, if you insist on buying Ganzos just because some strangers on the Internet don’t agree with you, well, it’s your money. No sarcasm here, I hope you get your money’s worth.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
And here you once again expose your character for all to see... You wanted to buy Ganzo knives from the beginning and you found your rationalization for it through your counter crusade. Nothing we said or failed to say was going to change the end result, you buying Ganzo knives, but now when you speak up about them we can point to this thread to demonstrate your actual motivation in defending them.
Click to expand...

No it wasn't. Anyone is free to track this thread or any of the threads in which I've rebuffed the anti-Ganzo crusade. There is no secret motive finally revealed through some grand scheme. My reasoning is on the table for all to see. As far as anything you did or didn't say changing the result, notice that my action is a direct result of your choice. If you want to share a brief, civil, fact-based PSA about Ganzo improperly copying designs or design elements whenever the subject comes up, I'll applaud you for it. If you want to get nasty about it, make false claims or personal attacks, or commit logical fallacies in pursuit of your agenda; I'll simply counter any possible effect of your activism, thus rendering it a non-profitable activity. It's not perfect but it's the best I've got.

DangerZone98 said:
... I appreciate the diversity of views in BladeForums. It helps prevent forming an echo chamber. I like hearing from those who do not share my opinions. In this case however, what’s right and wrong are plain to see. There is no rationalizing the theft of others’ works... Chronovore, if you insist on buying Ganzos just because some strangers on the Internet don’t agree with you...
Click to expand...

I also appreciate the diversity of opinion here. I might not do justice to all of the concepts and viewpoints I've tried to share on the topic in this thread and elsewhere, but I clearly don't see my efforts as justification for thievery. As should be evident in my above response, this is not about agreement. It's about civility or the opposite, especially in pursuit of misguided activism. That lack of civility and either charity or tolerance regarding my previous efforts have left me burned out and turning to this new approach.
 
Chronovore said:
No it wasn't. Anyone is free to track this thread or any of the threads in which I've rebuffed the anti-Ganzo crusade. There is no secret motive finally revealed through some grand scheme. My reasoning is on the table for all to see. As far as anything you did or didn't say changing the result, notice that my action is a direct result of your choice. If you want to share a brief, civil, fact-based PSA about Ganzo improperly copying designs or design elements whenever the subject comes up, I'll applaud you for it. If you want to get nasty about it, make false claims or personal attacks, or commit logical fallacies in pursuit of your agenda; I'll simply counter any possible effect of your activism, thus rendering it a non-profitable activity. It's not perfect but it's the best I've got.



I also appreciate the diversity of opinion here. I might not do justice to all of the concepts and viewpoints I've tried to share on the topic in this thread and elsewhere, but I clearly don't see my efforts as justification for thievery. As should be evident in my above response, this is not about agreement. It's about civility or the opposite, especially in pursuit of misguided activism. That lack of civility and either charity or tolerance regarding my previous efforts have left me burned out and turning to this new approach.
Click to expand...
I agree that there was no secret motive, it was blatant and obvious from the very beginning. You wanted to buy Ganzo knives and found a way to justify doing so. The proof is that you did exactly that. If we had agreed with you that maybe Ganzo wasn't so bad you would have used that as your justification to do so. You invoke logic, but try to place responsibility for your choices on us, which is irrational and illogical. Your decision to buy Ganzos was made from the start, the only question was how you arrived there.
 
Chronovore said:
Insipid Moniker Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.
Click to expand...

Wow, for that being your final say, you sure have a lot more to say...

My reason for not buying Ganzo and hoping others won't as well has nothing to do with impacting the company. I don't consider myself that important. It has to do with impacting me. I feel better when I do the right thing.
 
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I think all this is less about being an “anti Ganzo crusader”, and more about doing the right thing. As an objective unbiased onlooker, I read all this and I personally take issue with a company that thinks they can take all the hard work companies put into design and just push generic copies for profit.
 
Ganzo.......a knife built for those who don’t care
If the manufacturer falsifies it’s product specifications
Unethical business practices (IP theft)
Products designed for an uneducated knife buying public

When one chooses/buys/promotes Ganzo in these forums knowing what a Gonzo is
One shows what knife knowledge, personal character and ethics they possess.
 
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I seriously do not understand the appeal of buying piles upon piles of cheap knives. You've seen the pictures, and we've all made fun of them. You know the ones I'm talking about. Some basement dweller who goes by the internet moniker of "xXMASTERGOKU69Xx" or "MASTERD3ATHK!LLA" brags about his "collection" and it's a bunch of UC Gil Hibben fantasy crap, ninja stars, those goofy 3 bladed folding Batman knives, and a whole lot of MTech, Master Cutlery, Tac Force, and similar garbage and rat tang wallhanger swords. Hundreds of dollars of vaguely sharp scrap metal.

Buying a whole bunch of Enlans, Ganzos, Eafengrows, and no-name Chinese framelocks masquerading as high-end production and custom knives isn't much better, and hardly any different.

Give 3 men $300 to spend on knives. Knives that he'll actually use and not just post pictures of it on instagram.

One buys a $300 knife. It's all he'll ever carry, and it'll last him the rest of his life. You can respect the man because he understands the value of quality tools and the pride in ownership that comes with it.

One buys a $100 Spyderco, a $150 Benchmade, and Mora fixed blade and a SAK. You can respect him because he is still getting high-quality tools, and he clearly understands the "best tool for the job" mentality. And he can be proud of owning them.

The 3rd man buys 10 $30 Ganzos and calls it a "collection". The first 2 men shake their heads and roll their eyes at the 3rd man. Instead of 10 junk knives, he could have bought 4 $75 knives that nobody else would scoff at. He could have bought just one $30 Ganzo as a "beater", then spend the remaining $270 one or two or three or four knives of much higher quality.

Similarly, do you want to buy a bunch of Foster Grants that bend and break easily, or do you want one good pair of Ray-bans or Maui Jims?
Do you want Harbor Freight or Snap ON?
Do you want a bunch of shoes from Payless that fall apart in a couple months, or do you want Timberlands?
Do you want an assortment of Timex watches or one Rolex?
A garage full of Huffys or one Santa Cruz?
A half-dozen Hi-Points or one Sig Sauer?
40 burgers off the dollar menu or a 9oz filet mignon?

I'm baffled there's actually people here who join to discuss Ganzos and other knock-off junk. It's a forum of hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals. I can't see any self-respect or pride in buying low-quality knockoffs. I can't see any enjoyment to be had in that either, but I guess not everybody feels the same way. And it in no way is tied to the cost (or lack thereof) of them, but in the choice of picking a Ganzo knockoff of a ZT 0300 or Spyderco Native by a Chinese company in a communist country when one can get a Kershaw or Byrd that is an original design by an American company to support hard-working people for the same price or a paltry few dollars more.

Buying knock-offs, and knives made by companies that make knock-offs, hurts the legitimate companies in the industry and by extension hurts the hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals that buy knives from legitimate countries. How such people can do that, yet still consider themselves to be part of the knife enthusiast community, is beyond my comprehension.
 
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