9mm

I vote Browning Hi-Power or CZ. I had a CZ 75SA and it was a sweet shooter. The trigger was plastic and flexed a bit, but it shot accurately enough for a combat pistol with a single-action. It wasn't creep-free though, that's for sure. My bone stock Ruger SR1911 Commander's trigger is much better than that CZ's was.
 
Sulaco said:
I vote Browning Hi-Power or CZ. I had a CZ 75SA and it was a sweet shooter. The trigger was plastic and flexed a bit, but it shot accurately enough for a combat pistol with a single-action. It wasn't creep-free though, that's for sure. My bone stock Ruger SR1911 Commander's trigger is much better than that CZ's was.
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That's probably a first, Ruger trigger is better than CZ trigger...... :) I can't help but think this is only because 1911's tend to allow for quite nice triggers, Ruger triggers are generally the DEFINITION of 'lawyer proof'...... ;)

I handled someone's Ruger P95 a week ago, it had literally the WORST trigger I've ever had the privilege of experiencing. The double action felt like all of 20 lbs. and the single action hit a wall that made me actually stop and check that the safety was off. I was literally baffled by how horrible it was.....:barf:
 
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aaaa_cccc said:
Perhaps you'd volunteer as a test subject to prove that 9mm only makes folks irritable...... :)

BTW, the reality is that plenty of people have been shot by 9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP and all other sorts of handgun cartridges and lived to tell about it. I've yet to see someone volunteer their body to prove that 9mm is wimpy and can be easily shrugged off.....:rolleyes:

Any projectile .17" and up can be fatal upon humans when placed properly, which is the number one factor in regards to incapacitation. Shot placement is first, penetration second, expansion/diameter third - in that order of importance. A .22 LR shot that hits the central nervous system will have a much better result than a .45 ACP to the big toe...... ;)

Do you honestly believe that an extra .10" projectile or 100 ft/lbs energy is what really matters when your life is in the balance? He who hits first/most/most accurately wins.... :)
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Uhmm ya here's the deal. Although I am currently practicing a Cardiothoracic/Vascuar surgeon, I am also general surgery boarded and have spent many years on trama call in Level 1 trauma center. I can assure that I have repaired my share of all varieties of bullet holes (hundreds, thousands?); I also enjoy shooting as a hobby. During my days as a trauma surgeon I was amazed at the number of people who came in shot with 9mms or .38 specials or .380s who were awake talking and indeed frequently combative in the ER. Many of these people took respectable hits and were still fully combat functional; I personally saw this much less with bigger or higher energy bullets. This of course is just my observation, however based on many analysed conflicts, the most famous of which was the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, the FBI became disappointed with the performance of the 9mm round, as people not infrequently take torso hits and keep shooting back. Following the FBI there has been a huge migration in many law enforcement agencies away from 9mm; .40 is the most dominant replacement.
My original post was largely tongue in cheek, a small attempt at humor. I did not mean to offend, or criticize anyones weapon. Of course, shot placement is key, and any individual is better off with what they shoot well, however I have more experience with these things than most and after having to wrestle a number of shot up gangbangers to ER gurneys... I lost a little faith in the 9mm, and try to steer my friends to heavier rounds.
Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.
 
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I respect your views on the topic, mach 5. Just wanted to make sure that you weren't just believing all the poo-pooing you can read on the internet about the 9mm being next to worthless and the 45 ACP is god's gift to the good guys. Not saying 9mm doesn't have it's downsides (everything has it's pros and cons), but that's not to say it doesn't have advantages.

Just curious what exactly you mean by respectable hits?
 
Something not mentioned frequently enough is bullet selection. Of course a .45 JHP will out perform 9mm ball, and vice versa.

Shot placement is of course king, but number of rounds on target is also very important. A single pistol GSW in any common caliber is very survivable, half a dozen changes the picture drastically.
 
aaaa_cccc said:
I respect your views on the topic, mach 5. Just wanted to make sure that you weren't just believing all the poo-pooing you can read on the internet about the 9mm being next to worthless and the 45 ACP is god's gift to the good guys. Not saying 9mm doesn't have it's downsides (everything has it's pros and cons), but that's not to say it doesn't have advantages.

Just curious what exactly you mean by respectable hits?
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By respectable shot I loosely mean torso shot, but would also include other injuries that would be expected to be fight stopping. The goal of any defensive use of gun is to stop the fight, prevent the aggressor from attacking you; this is different than rendering a lethal injury. In that FBI shootout I mention above the bad guys sustained injuries that were eventually life threatening but did not provided enough impact render them incapable of returning fire.
 
mach 5 said:
By respectable shot I loosely mean torso shot, but would also include other injuries that would be expected to be fight stopping. The goal of any defensive use of gun is to stop the fight, prevent the aggressor from attacking you; this is different than rendering a lethal injury. In that FBI shootout I mention above the bad guys sustained injuries that were eventually life threatening but did not provided enough impact render them incapable of returning fire.
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That is what I thought you meant, but the reality is that the only shots that can guarantee an immediate incapacitation are ones that destroy the central nervous system. Torso shots cannot guarantee this even with rifle calibers as many times deer will run for a distance after taking a .30-06' to the heart/lungs. Yes, they are the walking dead at that point but if they were a human attacker it would leave plenty of time to do you some serious harm.
 
PeterPHWS said:
That CZ is nicely spec'd :thumbup: Did you get the extended barrel with a view to looking at a silencer or just for accuracy?

Angus does a good job!
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I got the extended barrel really only to set my CZ apart a bit more from the other CZs. It gives a slight increase in velocity. It's actually too short to thread for a silencer which was never my intention anyway, although the CZs make great suppressor hosts.

cchu518 said:
That's really nice! :) How does the short reset feel do you like it?
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It feels fantastic. It's basically a 1911 feeling trigger on a DA/SA platform. I have had several comments from 1911 owners that said the single action felt nicer than on their tuned 1911s.
 
aaaa_cccc said:
Perhaps you'd volunteer as a test subject to prove that 9mm only makes folks irritable...... :)

BTW, the reality is that plenty of people have been shot by 9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP and all other sorts of handgun cartridges and lived to tell about it. I've yet to see someone volunteer their body to prove that 9mm is wimpy and can be easily shrugged off.....:rolleyes:

Any projectile .17" and up can be fatal upon humans when placed properly, which is the number one factor in regards to incapacitation. Shot placement is first, penetration second, expansion/diameter third - in that order of importance. A .22 LR shot that hits the central nervous system will have a much better result than a .45 ACP to the big toe...... ;)

Do you honestly believe that an extra .10" projectile or 100 ft/lbs energy is what really matters when your life is in the balance? He who hits first/most/most accurately wins.... :)
Click to expand...




Well said brother!
 
The Taurus version of the Berreta 92 can be carried cocked and locked because they have a frame mounted safety.
 
Yeah I had a taurus 92 clone years ago and it was a good solid gun never had a malfunction or any issue with it. I've had several cz and cz clones and all of those were good guns too. My daughter's current favorite is a eaa witness full size frame with a compact slide. In 45 though. Lol.
 
mach 5 said:
Uhmm ya here's the deal. Although I am currently practicing a Cardiothoracic/Vascuar surgeon, I am also general surgery boarded and have spent many years on trama call in Level 1 trauma center. I can assure that I have repaired my share of all varieties of bullet holes (hundreds, thousands?); I also enjoy shooting as a hobby. During my days as a trauma surgeon I was amazed at the number of people who came in shot with 9mms or .38 specials or .380s who were awake talking and indeed frequently combative in the ER. Many of these people took respectable hits and were still fully combat functional; I personally saw this much less with bigger or higher energy bullets. This of course is just my observation, however based on many analysed conflicts, the most famous of which was the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, the FBI became disappointed with the performance of the 9mm round, as people not infrequently take torso hits and keep shooting back. Following the FBI there has been a huge migration in many law enforcement agencies away from 9mm; .40 is the most dominant replacement.
My original post was largely tongue in cheek, a small attempt at humor. I did not mean to offend, or criticize anyones weapon. Of course, shot placement is key, and any individual is better off with what they shoot well, however I have more experience with these things than most and after having to wrestle a number of shot up gangbangers to ER gurneys... I lost a little faith in the 9mm, and try to steer my friends to heavier rounds.
Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.
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Interesting observations :thumbup:

Calibre's used by gangs and the likelihood of surviving a shooting where the shooters are scared and untrained and are "spraying and praying" is actually a "comfort".

Iraq was a conflict where the Rambo movies played their part and saved a lot of lives... AK's being blatted off at full auto was frightening until you went to Afghanistan and started to hear "double taps" ... the irony was we remembered training them when they were on the friendly list ...

"Skill" is the killer with any firearm ... the 9mm has probably killed more people than any other calibre ... but if you lack skill the next best thing is firepower ... and the 9mm is a round favoured by both.

Some take comfort in having 19 rounds in the mag ... others take comfort that head shots can be done faster with less recoil recovery ...
 
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Willing to bet that anybody that has been shot by a 9mm didn't turn around and ask what caliber it was......
 
I have had most popular handgun calibre in my life time. Still enjoy most and have a few. Just one thing though and that with a little age I quit trying to go for that accuracy thing and now day just plan on ending the problem. Even sitting around the camp fire in Bear country it don't get any better!!!
 
aaaa_cccc said:
That's probably a first, Ruger trigger is better than CZ trigger...... :) I can't help but think this is only because 1911's tend to allow for quite nice triggers, Ruger triggers are generally the DEFINITION of 'lawyer proof'...... ;)



I handled someone's Ruger P95 a week ago, it had literally the WORST trigger I've ever had the privilege of experiencing. The double action felt like all of 20 lbs. and the single action hit a wall that made me actually stop and check that the safety was off. I was literally baffled by how horrible it was.....:barf:
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Yeah not really seeing how you can compare your experience with a P95 and mine with an SR1911.
 
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