A close encounter in NYC yesterday...

[edlex]

I'm glad I live in Florida!

 

[Skimo]

I carry a backpack in NYC, no knife printing and it keeps the stuff I carry close, luckily I had heard here before I went. It coulda been bad.

 

[JPD1998]

Work may possibly move me there in the new year. I'm dreading it... Is there any folding knife that will not catch attention from the police? Am I simply not allowed to clip it to my pocket? I've grown very fond of my folders and would hate to not be able to carry them.

My company moved here last year. I pass through the Times Square subway station and Grand Central terminal everyday. I pass a dozen or more NYPD during my daily commute and will only carry a small slip-joint in my pocket. A clipped knife will get you busted, sometimes I even get paranoid if the knife is showing too much through my pants pocket. NYPD is very active, especially the subway.

 

[Noctis3880]

Remove the clip and carry completely concealed. My preference is the right front trouser pocket. Check yourself in front of a full-length mirror to determine the effectiveness of your concealment technique. If you can see your knife "printing", rest assured that any nearby LEO will see it too.

That does raise an interesting question though. Do the cops have the right to go through your pockets without good cause? That bump in my pockets could be an oversized sharpie or a flashlight. It also seems risky to carry a knife with the clip attached even if it's not clipped to your pocket as an asshole enough cop could go through your pockets, yank it out, and claim that it was clipped to your pocket and showing. History shows that if it's your words versus the police, the judge will not favor you.

I also don't get the whole Spyderdrop method. Sure it means you can open a knife one-handed when it may not be possible otherwise(certainly not the case with regular Spydercos), but while I attempted it with my Buck 110 with only one hand and moving my hand back down to the handle(one hand again) I ended up dropping the knife on my bedsheets. I don't see it having any merit as an argument against weapon use as with two handed opening it merely took a second or two longer to open and it would stab just as well as a one-handed opener. Not to mention the hundreds of Spydercos this method was used for doesn't even need to be opened in such a ridiculous manner in order to be opened with one hand.

I was watching a video of a cop doing it as a pretense to arrest someone and I felt that someone needed a prompt lesson in manners with a belt buckle.

 

[xylum]

So let me get this straight. A knife concealed in my pocket is safer for the public than a knife clipped on my pocket? Is that because a criminal wouldn't have a knife, but my obvious knife (remember pocket clip) is just too attractive to him, so he would obviously take my knife and go stab someone? While if it in my pocket, he wouldn't know it was there and thus wouldn't have a knife, and thus wouldn't stab someone?

What is the logic behind concealed is better?

 

[Noctis3880]

Actually from what people are saying it sounds like the cops can still bust you even if the knife is concealed and they know it's there. Seems like the cops in NYC are more hired thugs than anything else, which isn't helped by the policies in the department.

 

[Striderco]

U cant carry a little folding knife in NYC but in the thousands of restaurants in the city there are countless chefs knives and paring knives and boning knives and butchers knives. All of which are used to commit most knife related crimes. Some thug isn't holding a damascus Sebbie to someones throat demanding their wallet.

 

[Damn_Animal]

I live in south west NY and all I can say is I enjoy living as far away as possible from NYC, while still being in NY. That place is a madhouse

 

[JTR357]

U cant carry a little folding knife in NYC but in the thousands of restaurants in the city there are countless chefs knives and paring knives and boning knives and butchers knives. All of which are used to commit most knife related crimes. Some thug isn't holding a damascus Sebbie to someones throat demanding their wallet.

You nailed it!:thumbup:

 

[HeavyHanded]

Actually from what people are saying it sounds like the cops can still bust you even if the knife is concealed and they know it's there. Seems like the cops in NYC are more hired thugs than anything else, which isn't helped by the policies in the department.

This goes back to Terry vs Ohio - if the cops believes a "crime" may be being committed (your unconcealed knife, or a bulge that looks to a highly trained eye like it might be a gravity knife) they can run your pockets for a weapon. I sent an email to the Manhattan DAs office asking for clarification re gravity knives and they sent me back detailed info on two successfully prosecuted cases. In one case (outside of NYC and its concealed requirement for knives - some town about 40 miles North - don't have the name right now) the arresting officers RAS was based on the fact the knife had a pocket clip and the officer "knew from training that gravity knives frequently come with pocket clips". The judge allowed this to fly and it resulted in a conviction. You have no 4th amendment rights that a cop must honor at the time, not even in your home ( Kentucky vs King), its been reduced to something you can bring up in court after the fact -- to an unsympathetic judge.

 

[robot37]

I've been to NYC three times on business and once for my sister's wedding. Last trip there I naively had a CS Recon clipped to my pocket and was completely ignorant that the law could be so different from Upstate NY. Luckily I wasn't apprehended by NYs finest. I will never willing set foot in that place again, the police and government there give the entire state a bad name.

Well, the noise and the stench of NYC don't help much either.
But it's pretty bad when I'm more afraid of the cops there than I am of getting mugged or robbed by the citizenry.
I avoid that place at all costs.

-nate

 

[Macchina]

Gosh, that makes me sick. From what i read here, I am thinking those guys were not even cops. A good cop would not treat a civilian that way. I am an officer myself, and if I were to see another officer harrasing a civilian, I would make sure they get a lesson in manners that they will not forget. Aikido style.

Hold on! You're saying that you are an officer who would attack another officer if you saw him aggressively doing his job (even if we don't like the laws or agree with the laws, carrying a knife is not constitutionally supported). I'm not supporting NY knife laws in the least, but I'm also not supporting karate chopping officers.

 

[TOM1960]

This goes back to Terry vs Ohio - if the cops believes a "crime" may be being committed (your unconcealed knife, or a bulge that looks to a highly trained eye like it might be a gravity knife) they can run your pockets for a weapon. I sent an email to the Manhattan DAs office asking for clarification re gravity knives and they sent me back detailed info on two successfully prosecuted cases. In one case (outside of NYC and its concealed requirement for knives - some town about 40 miles North - don't have the name right now) the arresting officers RAS was based on the fact the knife had a pocket clip and the officer "knew from training that gravity knives frequently come with pocket clips". The judge allowed this to fly and it resulted in a conviction. You have no 4th amendment rights that a cop must honor at the time, not even in your home ( Kentucky vs King), its been reduced to something you can bring up in court after the fact -- to an unsympathetic judge.

Again, it goes back to concealment. Concealed means concealed. Next time you see Obama making a public appearance, take a good look at the stern-faced, dark-suited gentlemen (and sometimes a lady or two) who are at his side and back. Do you see any evidence of weapons being carried? Rest assured, the Special Agents of the Secret Service are well-armed. They carry a folding ASP baton, a SIG semi-auto in .357 SIG, an extra magazine for the SIG, handcuffs and their surveillance kit (radio on the belt, sleeve-mounted mike and ear piece). Some carry the HK P90 SMG. Good concealment is king, folks. Know it, practice it and fully incorporate it into your daily lives.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Again, it goes back to concealment. Concealed means concealed. Next time you see Obama making a public appearance, take a good look at the stern-faced, dark-suited gentlemen (and sometimes a lady or two) who are at his side and back. Do you see any evidence of weapons being carried? Rest assured, the Special Agents of the Secret Service are well-armed. They carry a folding ASP baton, a SIG semi-auto in .357 SIG, an extra magazine for the SIG, handcuffs and their surveillance kit (radio on the belt, sleeve-mounted mike and ear piece). Some carry the HK P90 SMG. Good concealment is king, folks. Know it, practice it and fully incorporate it into your daily lives.

Here's the issue - there's no mandate to conceal your knife in NY outside of NYC - this case make it obvious that no amount of concealment is good enough. If LE wants to pat you down under the flimsiest of pretenses or none at all, they not only can, but the findings will stand in court as well. The fact that this officer was allowed to make a statement that viewing a knife with a pocket clip (or in this case what appeared to be a knife) was probable cause to search an individual is pure BS. A bulge from your smart phone could equal RAS and they're off to the races, with a sycophantic judiciary rubber stamping virtually every excess perpetrated by LE. Who hasn't seen the video of a man having both his dogs shot and his wife and kid manhandled at gunpoint to serve a warrant for a misdemeanor drug charge (that was later dropped)? LE was found to be operating entirely within the law.

Its not possible to have a conversation about NYC LE without viewing it in this larger context. Plenty of folks chime in saying NYC wasn't like this 15-20 years ago. The War on Drugs and the WOT have turned into a War on the Bill of Rights - the govt's not doing such a hot job on the first two, but they're doing a bang-up job on the third.

Sorry to vent.

You're right, keep your knife concealed and keep the eye contact nice and easy - smile and nod whenever possible.

 

[tom19176]

Not too good to hear that upstate is viewing the state law like NYC does concerning gravity knives with your statement about a town 40 mile north of NYC responding that way. NYC started the concealment requirement (NYC Admin Code 10-133) under Mayor Koch to stop people from openly carrying a knife on their belts. This was really in response to bikers and others who would wear a large fixed blade in plain site or a large folder ( they did not go crazy on the BS gravity knife wording back then) in a belt sheath for all to see. The police could not stop this method of carry since it was not illegal by state law, so the city passed their local law. It was largely not enforced till Mayor Mike came around. Pocket clips were not common on knives till the late 1980s and where not mentioned in the law directly, however, the city courts have allowed the clip as a means of considering the knife to be visible and therefore in violation of the law unless you fall into one of the exceptions. Any part of the knife being exposed leagally allows for an officer to say " let me see if it is legal" to you. Anywhere in NYS that you wear a exposed knife clip gives an officer the right to check the knife you are carrying is legal or not with out any other PC needed.
The main issue with NYC is the officer's requirement to make arrests and meet performance requirements with a force of over 30,000 that means these needless arrests will continue. When the first "gravity knife" arrests were made many years ago for a simple lock back that could be flicked open, no one took the court ruling to a higher court to challenge it. When the present NYS law was passed in the 1950s, there were several NYS knife makers who did not view this as a ban on their folding and locking knives. Stores sold them everywhere ( NYC included), and it was clear that a gravity knife was a certain type of knife that did not include a simple locking folder that you could forcefully flick open. The courts allowed this to change over the years and that has left us with our present condition. The NYPD even considers assisited openers to be switchblades even though they clearly are not so by the defined law ( a Queens jury understood this last year). It seems amazing that a DA can make a normal locking folder into a gravity knife because of the wording of that defintion but then cast aside the clear wording of what is a switchblade and how an assisited opener does not meet that defintion and yet still move ahead with that case!

 

[JPD1998]

I see people coming into the city from upstate NY everyday wearing multitools on their belt or knives clipped to their pockets. I always wonder how many of them will be stopped by NYPD.

If I wasn't a member of this forum, I would have probably made the mistake of clipping a knife to my pocket. When I worked in Westchester County it was a normal thing to do.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Chalk that up with the butterfly import ban despite the ruling that bali songs are not gravity knives under the wording of state law, handed down from the highest court in the state.

Here are a few responses I pulled from an LE forum in response to this question:

are butterfly knives illegal in the state of NY? i thought they were until i started reading and this court ruling says that because its not technically a gravity knife, its not illegal (as long as there is no malintent).

http://thehighroad.org/library/blades/ny/People v. Zuniga - 303 A.D.2d 773 (2003).html

this is where i got my information about this ruling. if any LEOs have any information on this matter it would be greatly appreciated if you shared.

Followed by these responses:

If I arrest you, and you have a butterfly knife, I'm going to consider it a dangerous knife, and charge you with CPW.

You're a collar; criminal possession of a weapon

You are right, the court case states that a buterfly knife isn't a gravity knife. I would arrest you because I believe that knife is a dangerous knife as stated in Penal Law 265.01
and with a dangerous knife, intent to use unlawfully is implied in 265.15 sub 4.

Sounds like just about any knife the arresting officer wants to make an issue out of, they can make an issue out of. Since they can articulate virtually any reason for RAS, you aren't in the clear with ANY knife on your person. NYC cops even busted a Chef for having a 2" non-locking folder on a watch fob - the knife was in his pocket, the fob counted as a displayed "weapon" since knives are sometimes attached to fobs!?

 

[parbajtor]

Remove the clip and carry completely concealed. My preference is the right front trouser pocket. Check yourself in front of a full-length mirror to determine the effectiveness of your concealment technique. If you can see your knife "printing", rest assured that any nearby LEO will see it too.

Note to self: Remember to wear thick underwear in NYC.

EDIT: And take a cold bath before going out.

 

[tapedeck74]

Gosh, that makes me sick. From what i read here, I am thinking those guys were not even cops. A good cop would not treat a civilian that way. I am an officer myself, and if I were to see another officer harrasing a civilian, I would make sure they get a lesson in manners that they will not forget. Aikido style.

Police are civilians.
(( way out of line ... this is not whine & cheese lite ))

 

[CalBearTactical]

wow, they have some rediculous knife laws in nyc.....I look at it this way,they shouldn't be having these communist type of laws restricting law abiding citizens to carry certain knives,,,,the criminals will always have illegal guns & knives no matter what the law is.

the state that I live in restricts certain types of assault rifles and ak-47s,but that doesn't stop the gangs around here from getting ahold of ak-47s and what not....so basically the laws in cali makes it so the gangbangers could out gun the good citizens in a home invasion,SMH.