A Flaw in the Heat Treat? Or something else?

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NothingCoherent said:
Anyway, I think I may have been a bit harsh in my earlier posts... but I wont lie, I was disappointed. I'm sure the tone of this thread reflects that. People tend to get very defensive when something they love is "attacked" in any way - and for good reason.

I didn't intend for that to happen. I just wanted to know how to fix my knife, and now I know. So that's a success. I will put the knife through some hard use when I get it back - things I expect a blade like that to do - and see how it handles things after its been reground. I'll make sure to update here.

Thanks again for all the help to those of you posting here.
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:thumbup: This shows good character. :thumbup:
 
My understanding is that Bark River knives are heat treated in large batches, so if one had a flaw, likely all of them would. As has been pointed out, the edge was most likely ground a bit thin. I have several Bark Rivers, and have had lots more that got sold to make room for others, and have yet to have an issue personally.

I just ordered a Recluse in natural canvas micarta, so hopefully I'll be able to give my 2 cents on it soon. I'd like to buy one of Andy's custom knives at some point, hopefully one of those SWEET machetes will make it's way into my hands when they're available.
 
I have no problem with any complaining going on in my forum. BUT!! I don't like Jerkit smileys. I saw a few in this thread. Please refrain from using them in my forum.


pitdog said:
A good warranty is fine and dandy but I'd rather have a knife that doesn't fail me to start with. I've seen 3 damaged/broken Barkies in recent posts on this forum, that's a little too regular for me to have confidence in their product. If I was looking for a knife just to be used for skinning or food prep then they would probably be a great option but for hard use I'm not sure anymore.
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I'm kinda disapointed in this post Pit. You know that nothing in life is perfect. No company has a zero failure rate. BRKT is a good AMERICAN company. There are a lot of variables that could cause this that no amount of QC can stop. Any small inclusion in the steel could cause this.

And that Video of the dumbass in a frickin hasmat suit beating the ever living shit out of a knife was ludicrous. He was trying to cause failure, not trying to split wood. None of us would have batonned our knife into a stubborn knot like that when out on a trip. Thats frickin dumb!

Wouldn't have happened with a 1.5mm thick Busse edge either. What an insurance policy it is to not put on an edge.


NothingCoherent said:
Yeah, exactly.

To the guys saying put away the pitchforks... you might change your tune after spending a lot of money on a big name knife, only to have it crap out on you while carving a freakin' stick. The bottom line is, I'm a poor student, and it took some saving up to get this blade. There was a lot of anticipation and expectation. I had my eye on the Recluse ever since I saw the first prototype's picture posted by Andy. And then I finally get it all those months later, and a little knot in a twig defeats it. That, my friends, is disappointment.

To have to send it in to be reground is silly. Now I have to pay for postage to another country, and wait a week or two just to get my blade back. This shouldn't be happening out of the factory at all, especially at the price tag of a BRKT. Yes, they make a lot of knives. But what about quality control? A company with such a highly praised reputation is expected to be quality across the board. However, as others have pointed out, there have been quite a few cases of failing blades recently. Who knows how many others aren't reported? How many are bought as display knives, and don't even get the chance to fail? This shouldn't be happening, PERIOD. Not with that price. Not with that reputation.

As I said in an earlier post, Mike over at BRKT is great. He's a fantastic businessman and does his customers a great service. There's no doubt in my mind that he works hard. It's awesome that BRKT is willing to fix up their knives, and they have a good warranty. But that doesn't change the fact that they sold me what is, in my eyes, a faulty product.

Criticism is NOT a bad thing, guys. It leads to improvement.

If you guys are still interested a couple weeks from now, I will update again when I have received my knife. It's going in the mail on Monday.
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Certainly sorry to hear of this. I'm back in town now, and see that Mike has warranted it, and Derrick has stepped up also. I will offer you a %25 discount on your next purchaase from myself as well.

To say this should never happen is not very realistic, and makes this sound a bit more like a pitchfork carrying rant than a criticism IMO. The damn space shuttle blew up with a teacher on it. They've got strict QC there at NASA, believe me.

My knife will be ground thin. In QC, if it is still thick, it gets reground.


abarnhart said:
Three turned up through searching out of how many knives? Thousands? :jerkit:

You are missing my point. The percentages are wildly in BRKT's favor. We're not talking about 1% failures... but less than a percentage failures. If you are going to bad mouth that (which you have done), I'm not quite sure what your expectations are. I doubt any knife-maker can have 100% success rate in heat-treat and grind. If you think otherwise, you're getting a little glossy-eyed about a favorite maker.


Exactly. Take care of the issue... if there still is a problem, then air your dirty laundry.

Reign in the horses and douse the torches... no need for a BRKT witch-hunt. You lads are just getting a little excited about flinging some mud.
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Nice post Ted. Thanks.

okbohn said:
I am sorry....I was away from the forum for a few days.

This does happen. The deflection is a quality of A2--it does that rather than chipping. It is not a big deal--just send it in and they will fix it. If they don't fix it to your liking, I will replace the knife.

Shoot me an email with how much it cost to send it in and I will give you a credit on my website for the shipping.

Bark River makes great knives. That is why when Andy and I started working on this project we wanted them to make the production knives.
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NothingCoherent said:
That's very kind of you. I don't think it should cost TOO much to ship, so I'm not going to worry about the costs so much.... but thanks for the response. KSF remains my favorite online vendor because of things like this. You guys rock.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm constantly amazed by the commitment and general friendliness of the people involved in... well, knives, on this forum and others. Hell, here's a recent example: I had just broken a Ka-Bar, and made a thread asking for suggestions on a replacement, when out of nowhere the freakin' chief engineer (or some similar title) of Ka-Bar knives responded with an address, telling me to send it in to be replaced! I was not expecting that kind of response. I didn't end up sending it in, as the broken blade still holds sentimental value (my first knife... sniff), but still. I didn't even know my basic little Ka-Bar has a warranty like that. So, what I'm trying to say is that all you knife guys rock. Especially Andy, for letting all this "huey" go down in his forum! :p

Anyway, I think I may have been a bit harsh in my earlier posts... but I wont lie, I was disappointed. I'm sure the tone of this thread reflects that. People tend to get very defensive when something they love is "attacked" in any way - and for good reason.

I didn't intend for that to happen. I just wanted to know how to fix my knife, and now I know. So that's a success. I will put the knife through some hard use when I get it back - things I expect a blade like that to do - and see how it handles things after its been reground. I'll make sure to update here.

Thanks again for all the help to those of you posting here.
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I'm very glad you're feeling better, and your knife is going to be fixed! This is why I teamed up with BRKT, and Knives Ship Free!
 
Fiddleback said:
None of us would have batonned our knife into a stubborn knot like that when out on a trip. Thats frickin dumb!
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I WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT!...

:D

Hatchula

u.jpg


t.jpg



Tango

TangoDestructionH.jpg



Delta Foxtrot

IMG_8744.jpg


I can't find the pictures showing the Delta flex around a knot or the one I batonned through another knife. Andy, what did we do with those edge vs. edge pictures?

By the way, NOBODY DO THIS STUFF WITH KNIVES!

;)
 
Fiddleback said:
I have no problem with any complaining going on in my forum. BUT!! I don't like Jerkit smileys. I saw a few in this thread. Please refrain from using them in my forum.




I'm kinda disapointed in this post Pit. You know that nothing in life is perfect. No company has a zero failure rate. BRKT is a good AMERICAN company. There are a lot of variables that could cause this that no amount of QC can stop. Any small inclusion in the steel could cause this.

And that Video of the dumbass in a frickin hasmat suit beating the ever living shit out of a knife was ludicrous. He was trying to cause failure, not trying to split wood. None of us would have batonned our knife into a stubborn knot like that when out on a trip. Thats frickin dumb!

Wouldn't have happened with a 1.5mm thick Busse edge either. What an insurance policy it is to not put on an edge.
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The quote about the Busse made me smile, TOPS also falls into the same bracket although both companies now seem to be trying to produce some cutters as opposed to just choppers.

I have to say Andy that everytime I find myself posting in a thread like this I always regret getting involved as it basically does no good for anyone.
In my defense I will say that I wasn't just basing my comments on the 3 cases I mentioned but don't wish to further flame the thread anymore by going into detail. Like you say they make thousands of knives and we do hear of very few issues, so once again :foot::D
 
I've posted with you a long time now my friend. I'm glad we can have this frank a discussion together. I took that for granted, and I've been nervous that you'd get offended all day. I'm glad you didn't.
 
Fiddleback said:
I've posted with you a long time now my friend. I'm glad we can have this frank a discussion together. I took that for granted, and I've been nervous that you'd get offended all day. I'm glad you didn't.
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No fear of that buddy !;):thumbup:
 
Ask HornDog about his BRKT experiance. Based on what happened to him I won't buy one.
 
Falcor said:
This has occurred with the Bravo 1s in A2 as well as the BRKT golok in 1095. Yet another BRKT model that is showing HT problems. I wonder how many more?
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For the record, it's happened to at least one 1080-C Golok, too -- mine. Not to anywhere near the extent of the OP's problem, but same kind of failure. I simply chalked it up to too thin an edge. Even my friend who knows nuthin about knives commented on the razor-thin edge seeming out of place on a hard-use outdoors knife. But I love BRK Goloks and I'll keep trying all the different steels until they find one that works with that grind on that knife. Like many others are noting, stuff happens, get on with it. As long as the company is honest with me and honours their warranty, I guess I'm okay.
 
I have never owned a Bark River or a Fiddleback, but certainly would not hesitate to do so if the opportuntiy presented itself. I have heard very good things about both from sources I trust.
 
Acetylene said:
I have never owned a Bark River or a Fiddleback, but certainly would not hesitate to do so if the opportuntiy presented itself. I have heard very good things about both from sources I trust.
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I have owned several of both and they are excellent tools. Your sources are correct. :thumbup:
 
I've just realized that I've owned more BRKT knives than Fiddleback knives - need to rectify that!
 
G'day Andy


Fiddleback said:
...And that Video of the dumbass in a frickin hasmat suit beating the ever living shit out of a knife was ludicrous. He was trying to cause failure, not trying to split wood. None of us would have batonned our knife into a stubborn knot like that when out on a trip. Thats frickin dumb!
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Please see my previous comment about the handle movement (& therefore introduction of laterall stress on the edge), that IMO caused the buckling of the edge. :thumbup:

With regards to batoning through knots, as with a lot of things, correct technique makes the seemingly "impossible", possible. :D

For example have a look at the attached video. It shows a laminated stainless blade (the stainless edging steel is 62 RC) being batonned through knots in seasoned Aussie hardwood. BTW, since most here aren't familiar with Aussie hardwoods, they are right up there with Mesquite for hardness :eek:

How was this possible when so many internet Outdoor & Wilderness "survival experts" will emphatically state that stainless is not suitable for an outdoors blade :D


[youtube]Jkpn1_SaKvc[/youtube]


I really feel for yourself & other knife makers.

Do they make their blades with edges made to withstand the "recent" need to be able to chop through concrete, or do they make their knives to actually act like knives and be good cutters?

For what it's worth, I'd suggest manufacturers like yourself (that make knives to cut), take consolation from the fact that those who profess the absolute need for an indestructable blade are also the very same ones' who do not provide any evidence they actually venture off the beaten track.

BTW, did you notice my compliance with your request to not use the jerkit smiley. :D





Kind regards
Mick
 
Guys, I baton with all my knives. But I do it carefully. I know you have to hit the spine, but I don't go wailing on it for all my might. And I don't need a tyvek suit and full head gear to protect myself when I do it. (I wonder if his mom is terified of what that dude does in her basement?) I've batonned THIN (3/32" thick) Nessmuks with high approaching flat convex grinds cross grain through 1-2" thick hickory branches. No problem.

But had I wailed on it like that guy it would certainly have failed. That was the intention, obviously, from watching the video. If you guys have a knife fail, I will replace it. If you immediately cause another failure, I'll know you are a destruction tester guy because I know that two of my knives in a row aren't bad. So this time I'll just refund your $ and refuse to sell to you anymore. My knives are tools. I make cutting tools.

That said, what happened to the OP isn't cool. The knife needs to be fixed or replaced. This was the immediate response of the producer, and that is why they are a good company.

What was the cause? When a problem happens to 1 in 200 it is very hard to say. Lots of possibilities get thrown against the wall, but without a pattern, or extensive testing at a lab ($$$$$$, and only justified if there is repeat performances), there just isn't any way to know which is the right guess, and which is just a mess.

By the end of this year I'll have made over 600 knives. I've had maybe ten back for repair. I one time had a Scanid'd edge roll just barely, and was fixed by the customer with a steeling, the knife wasn't returned to me, and no further problems were reported with the knife. I've re-handled 3 knives. These were because of wood movement, probably not covered under my warranty, but I replaced them anyway.

So now you know all the dirt on Fiddleback Forge. No maker is perfect! No knife is perfect. We strive, and strive. Does this mean I make a knife you can't trust in the woods? I do everything I can to make sure that isn't the case. AND, I carry my own work into the woods. Mine is a 1/8" thick Recluse with a high thin convex grind in 01 steel. I trust it. I've batonned with it, dug with it, drilled with it, done food prep, tried to make traps (unsuccessfully), used the spine as a flint and steel and as a striker for my ferro rod, carved walking sticks, etc. I sweated over it when it was made, and its mine.




pitdog said:
No fear of that buddy !;):thumbup:
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Good. You be sure to correct me when I've gone and Cajuned things up with my horrible mouth too!:foot:
 
Man did you see that Miami Game on Sunday! A great win in Overtime, Go Fins!!!!!






























:p
 
Just finished reading this thread from the beginning, usually I read posts and don't generally reply since my knife experience is limited compared to the users here.

Reading through the thread really kept my attention. I wanted to see the various viewpoints on the matter as my experience with BRK&T and A-2 is limited to what I've read and seen on forums and YouTube. I'm glad that it didn't get overly out of hand and repetitive. I saw some really good civility prop up here.

I'll admit I was debating if I wanted to purchase a BRK&T Bravo I in A-2 based on less than flattering tests and reports I've seen, but I think I saw some more perspective in this thread and others. I sometimes have a tendency to swim in the details and forget to step back and see the other moving parts (Review all relevant information before drawing your own conclusion). One definitely has to consider the QC process and costs/benefits to the consumer. I would think that companies with effectively no questions asked warranties (i.e. BRK&T, ESEE, don't know the others) do all within reasonable cost and time to assure that quality knives are produced and their warranty costs don't sky rocket. I decided that I'll go ahead and pull the trigger when I find a price for a Bravo I that I can afford in the next few weeks or so (fingers crossed). This should be my 1st convex blade.

Thanks for everyone's input on this thread!
 
After reading this thread you're going to buy a Bravo 1??? :eek:

Get a Recluse! :foot: :D
 
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