A.G. Russell Traditonal Knives: Should They Be Made In The USA Or Not?

[GeorgeSPatton]

....depends upon how astute one's feelings are.

And you believe yours are more astute than everyone elses?

 

[Kohai999]

And you believe yours are more astute than everyone elses?

No, not necessarily.

I have 20+ years in the knife community, including operating my own retail knife business in Seattle, WA for 5 years, work at GT Knives as shop slave and salesman, and a short stint at Buck Knives. Worked on design and sales for V-tech Knives after that around 2002, most of the stuff was (sadly) made in Taiwan. Admittedly, the vast majority of my experience is with custom knives. I started speaking with A.G. Russell on the telephone back in 1986.

How about you?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Leadfoot2]

You see, you Brits are so proper...over here they say it's like having relations with an unattractive partner...it might feel good but you don't want anyone to know!

(I worded that ever so carefully so as not to have my "moderator" card revoked. )

Best post of yesterday, too funny

Leadfoot

 

[Blue Sky]

A.G. Russell Traditonal Knives: Should They Be Made In The USA Or Not?

The operative word of course is "should". Because of it, the answer must be no because "should" suggests to me Mr. Russell shouldn't have the free will to source his product as he and he alone sees fit. He does. I wish they could be made here, because they are some of the most unique and compelling versions of old classics that have come along in years imo, and I would love to own a couple of them. But I will not, because of their source. His decision, my decision, simple.

I know full well that we can't always pick and choose where our stuff comes from, but when I can, I do.

 

[GeorgeSPatton]

No, not necessarily.

I have 20+ years in the knife community, including operating my own retail knife business in Seattle, WA for 5 years, work at GT Knives as shop slave and salesman, and a short stint at Buck Knives. Worked on design and sales for V-tech Knives after that around 2002, most of the stuff was (sadly) made in Taiwan. Admittedly, the vast majority of my experience is with custom knives. I started speaking with A.G. Russell on the telephone back in 1986.

How about you?

These statements are directly contradictory. You say "not necessarily" but then try to give a reason why you're so much more important than everyone else.

All I'm going to say is, having built a successful business of my own, I know enough about business not to tell other people how to run theirs.

 

[Kohai999]

These statements are directly contradictory. You say "not necessarily" but then try to give a reason why you're so much more important than everyone else.

Definitely not most everyone else, most likely more important than you....smarter too, and probably better looking....unless you are a dwarf, not taller.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i would guess you are probably taller than the majority of the population of dwarves.

 

[GeorgeSPatton]

I believe they like to be called "little people". Racists...

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I believe they like to be called "little people". Racists...

someone's height and/or genetic predisposition to dwarfism has nothing to do with race.

you're an idiot.

 

[Kohai999]

I'm not telling A.G. what to do....if I feel that traditional pattern knives should not be made in China....and start a thread about it, and the majority of people participating are saying they would not purchase a Chinese-made traditional patterned knife, that is potentially useful information for future decisions, is it not?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[AusieGav]

This thread has totally inspired me to go and buy a few AG Russell knives!

Thanks to the OP.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

I'm not telling A.G. what to do....if I feel that traditional pattern knives should not be made in China....and start a thread about it, and the majority of people participating are saying they would not purchase a Chinese-made traditional patterned knife, that is potentially useful information for future decisions, is it not?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Well the thread this was split from was about 4 pages long of people loving and enjoying the ones they bought , it was only you who had an issue with them being made overseas. You did not start a thread about it , you commented in another thread. And that comment was enough to have it split , So no , I would not say the majority. If the majority of buyers felt that way I doubt they would be selling as well as they are , and I doubt there would be 111 posts in the original thread speaking highly of them.

 

[Blues]

Well the thread this was split from was about 4 pages long of people loving and enjoying the ones they bought , it was only you who had an issue with them being made overseas. You did not start a thread about it , you commented in another thread. And that comment was enough to have it split , So no , I would not say the majority. If the majority of buyers felt that way I doubt they would be selling as well as they are , and I doubt there would be 111 posts in the original thread speaking highly of them.

Just to be clear...this thread was started (and split off from the original thread in the "Traditional Forum") not because it is a debate deemed unworthy of having or from any prejudice against it, but because it is a topic better handled elsewhere on the site.

Per the guidelines for the Traditional Forum:

"We understand that many knives and brands/marks that were once produced here in the USA are now produced overseas, whether that offshore manufacture resides in Europe, South America or Asia.
Be that as it may, the Traditional Forum exists to discuss the knives (pro and con) as opposed to hosting rants about overseas manufacture in general or specific countries in particular.
We feel it is safe to say that we all want to see the U.S. cutlery industry thrive. If for some reason you cannot countenance purchasing knives manufactured overseas, then by all means "vote" with your dollars but do not use the forum for promoting any particular agenda.

Regardless of personal point of view, "China Bashing" is not welcome and will not be tolerated. Please discuss and critique the knives themselves...not the country of origin. This goes for any "offshore" point of production."

(We understand that not all agree with the decision to exclude such content from the forum.)

 

[Kohai999]

The thread was started from a split in Traditional.

I have continued this thread, and there have been a number of participants who have chimed in that they have similar views....not many came over from Traditional to chime in one way or the other.

You can say whatever you want, John...the facts are the facts.

I think that the reason for this is the same reason that Elliott split the thread....many of the participants in Traditional feel safe and comfortable with the environment that Elliott and Gus have set up for them over there, and don't wish to be part of contentious discourse in other parts of the Forums.

Do you have inside information from A.G. on how well the Chinese made Traditional knives are selling? Do you own any of these knives? Do you intend to?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Well the thread this was split from was about 4 pages long of people loving and enjoying the ones they bought , it was only you who had an issue with them being made overseas. You did not start a thread about it , you commented in another thread. And that comment was enough to have it split , So no , I would not say the majority. If the majority of buyers felt that way I doubt they would be selling as well as they are , and I doubt there would be 111 posts in the original thread speaking highly of them.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

As I mentioned to you before , I use and carry all my knives .

Local law dictates to carry concealed the blade must be under 3" , so while I would enjoy one of these latest offerings from AG , and I have spent a good bit of time fondling those that friends have bought , I don't buy something I can't legally carry.

I was very impressed by the fit and finish of these latest 3 knives he is having made. I rate them at least equal in quality to the Case Bose knives costing much much more.

If I can't use it , I don't buy it.

I will be picking up one of these shortly from AG :
http://www.agrussell.com/ag-russell-curved-regular-jack/p/RUShhhCJ13AJB/ (this will replace one of the Case Sodbusters I gave to a co-worker , and a Remington Baby Bullet that was given to a friend.)

And no I don't have any inside info regarding AG's sales numbers , but judging by the people that are happy with them on various forums , I would venture to guess they are selling well.

 

[midnight flyer]

OK, NOW this thread is taking on a more "traditional" (sorry, Elliot ) tone. Calling one another names, playing (or trying to play) the race card, justifications of why one guy is more important than another, madly typing away one's credentials... this is the stuff of Blade Forums discussions.

I always think these threads about foreign made knives are amusing as they only seem to target one country.

From another point of view, I worked with a man in the mid 70s (only 30 years after WWII) that was in his early 60s. He wouldn't touch ANYTHING made in Germany. Nothing. Not a tool, not a knife, not a car, not a radio, NOTHING. He recalled in no uncertain terms the amount of killing, ruin of whole countries, genocide, and mass murder he had seen with his own eyes while marching across Europe as a grunt. He never got over it as he thought that he could be carrying a knife, using a tool or in some way supported a nation that led this nation into two world wars that cost the United States so dearly. As he told me then, the knife I was carrying (a Tree Brand) could have actually been made by someone that killed US soldiers.

Good Point. I didn't buy anything but CASE for years after that.

The same existed with my best buddy's father. He just passed (92!!) and served with distinction in the Army Air Corps, the later in Korea with the Air Force, and lastly as an officer in Vietnam. The things he saw, the atrocities he either witnessed or saw the results of left him with a deep burning hate of anything Japanese (and pretty much anything from an Asian country). He felt like anyone that used any Japanese product of any sort was a traitor to this country and as he told me "slapped the face of anyone that served or lost someone in the war".

So I guess we all have our point of view. I think about those those older fellas that had a real stake in the well being of our society when I see "traditionals" that are German made, or some of the older Seki branded knives that are made in traditional patterns. It is ironic to me that in the spirit of nationalism and protectionism that usually fires these debates that German knives are exempted from conversation. In fact, many hold them in great regard.

But didn't the German makers take away from our economy when they were here in force under the names of Boker, Puma, Schlieper, Forstner, Henckels, etc., etc.?

Personally, having my own business and running another, I wouldn't tell anyone how to run theirs. But even as far off as this topic has gotten (idiot! racist! dwarf!) I don't think SG was telling AGR to move his production, just expressing his desire to see his traditional patterns made here in the USA. In this case, I am with him. I love the old American knives and seek them out as my favorites.

One thing that has been pointed out here is a double ended dagger. "Vote with your pocketbook" is well preached. The guys that buy the Chinese knives are definitely voting with their pocketbooks. I think many here would gladly pay more for a USA made knives and even overlook a flaw or two to stay in the country. But they won't pay 5, 6, 7 times the amount of money to get something of the same quality just because of COO markings.

I haven't gone over to the Chinese side yet as I currently have a really deep love affair with Queen thanks to Mike Latham. But having seen and handled some of them side by side with GEC, Great Eastern, CASE, etc., at the last several gun shows, they acquit themselves quite nicely, and in many cases the Chinese offerings showed better fit and finish at 20% of the price of their American counterparts. Yikes! I am glad the Chinese haven't stepped up to D2!
That could be a game changer for me.

Robert

 

[sheathmaker]

Good post, Midnight. Seems to have been well thought and considered PRIOR to pressing submit. Therefore you can probably expect to take some flak for it. Now if you are waiting for the "but" or the other shoe to drop, it won't because I'm through!

Paul

 

[FLymon]

...they acquit themselves quite nicely, and in many cases the Chinese offerings showed better fit and finish at 20% of the price of their American counterparts. Yikes! I am glad the Chinese haven't stepped up to D2!
That could be a game changer for me.

Robert

That is exactly what I have been saying for some time:

I have a few of the RR knives, and yes they are cheap, but just like almost everything else imported from China, today's cheap is a whole different world from yesterdays cheap. One of mine is a little split spring whittler and for $9.99 to my door, I don't see how they do it.
I am interested to see if as a by-product of the advances sure to come in the steel used in the Chinese made Bemchmade/Spyderco etc, that whoever is making these RR, Boker, Schrade, Owl Head etc.. starts upgrading these for very little increase in cost. We might end up with knives that rival Case for under $20. They aren't really close right now, but they will probably only get better.

I agree that RR steel doesn't seem to be bad, but I will check back in about 20 years and see how today's RR knives have held up in under a few decades of carry/use before I will concede they even hold a candle to a Case knife. I bought mine as a sort of novelty, and to try a few patterns on the cheap, and IMHO from the few I have handled they are nice for the money, but everything about them is not really close to Case standards.

Now, If they can somehow manage to put out twice the quality at twice the price, then I think we could be looking at a real challange to Case.

The particular knives we are talking about have sort of leapfrogged what I was talking about back in 2009. Instead of having a $20 challenger to a $50 USA made knife, some are saying what we have here are $60-$70 challengers to $300 dollar knives. In the F&F department I believe they probably back that up. I still don't believe the quality of the materials is there myself.

I too am concerned that the people building and commissioning these knives will "wise up" and use 1095, A2, O1, 154CM, ATS-34, D2 etc... sourced here, instead of 8Cr13MoV (or whatever other alphabet soup they care to use) sourced there. In other words, remove any doubt about the quality of the steel, and still come in under 50% of the cost of their domestic counterparts, and be able to advertise USA steel blades. That really would be a big time game changer.

Don't get me wrong, I will love to see it for my own benefit. My concern is that the domestic manufacturers relying on large volume sales will never know what hit them, and by the time they figure it out it will be too late to do anything about it. I will always be a customer for the stuff made here, but I see us possibly getting steamrolled, sooner rather than later.

 

[Horizon_Seeker]

Phil, I hope you could tell from the tenor of my post that the issue of the etch (and its ability to be removed...to whatever purpose) was not at all directed at A.G. or his business practices.

I have received A.G's catalogs for many a year and I am familiar with the fact that he makes no secret of a knife's country of origin or the fact that it's imported. Nor should he. I'd be shocked if it were otherwise.

(I have not seen any of these recent "traditional" imports in person and cannot comment upon them but, again, they weren't what I was directing my earlier comment toward.)

I have seen the etch on some knives such as Rough Rider, Steel Warrior (and similar) that were sent to me by forum members for examination. On those knives the etch was easily removed. I had been alerted to this characteristic and so tested for myself. Once removed there was no indication of point of origin beyond name recognition and the characteristics of those knives.

Getting back to my earlier post...my point was simply that one should (imho) have the courage of their convictions. If you like the knife and don't mind the overseas origin then you should get over how it is "marked". On the other hand, if the "mark" is somehow bothersome (beyond the cosmetic) then perhaps it is indicative of deeper running currents. Whether that current derives from feeling bad about purchasing a knife of overseas manufacture OR simply from fear of embarrassment of not being able to hang out with the "cool kids" is something each must answer for themselves. (When I rode a Honda I knew that some of the Harley guys might look askance at it but I never tried to remove the badges to hide its origin. Then again, most guys I knew that were riders could appreciate a good machine, regardless.)

(emphasis mine), +1 to this view point.