A.G. Russell Traditonal Knives: Should They Be Made In The USA Or Not?

i dont mind that the stockman i just received was made in china so long as the fit and finish is good. but i do mind having to see "made in china" on the blade every time I admire the knife.
 
awh said:
i dont mind that the stockman i just received was made in china so long as the fit and finish is good. but i do mind having to see "made in china" on the blade every time I admire the knife.
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Well then you're living in denial. If you like the knife well enough to purchase and carry it seems to me you shouldn't have to delude yourself regarding its origin.

(Though the Chinese knives I've seen personally usually have a light etch (as opposed to a stamp) that's easy to remove. I believe this may be done intentionally for folks who want to remove the info (for a variety of purposes, some less palatable than others). U.S. law does require the labeling of the country of origin on certain goods.)

On the other hand, if it bothers you to have it known that you purchased or own a knife made in China perhaps its best that you avoid putting yourself in that situation.
 
STeven , I don't think it about that he can't have the knives made stateside , from the way I understand it he couldn't have them made stateside and hit the same price point. And my guess is he knows the market very well and knows what price point will sell in which style of knife.
 
Blues said:
Well then you're living in denial. If you like the knife well enough to purchase and carry it seems to me you shouldn't have to delude yourself regarding its origin.

(Though the Chinese knives I've seen personally usually have a light etch (as opposed to a stamp) that's easy to remove. I believe this may be done intentionally for folks who want to remove the info (for a variety of purposes, some less palatable than others). U.S. law does require the labeling of the country of origin on certain goods.)

On the other hand, if it bothers you to have it known that you purchased or own a knife made in China perhaps its best that you avoid putting yourself in that situation.
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You raise an interesting point Sir!

I’ll bet many of us recall that a certain Company in the 80’s & early 90’s imported Japanese made knives marked with old American & English brands. The mark side of the blade was stamped with the famous brand, & the pile side was marked “Made in Japan” with an etch so light it could be completely removed with an ink eraser in seconds. This was achieved by using an electro-chemical etch at an absurdly low voltage & duration; clearly an intentional event.

I am with you on my love for nice old tang stamps! I covet my old Sheffield pieces.
Nothing like I*XL on every tang! :D

However, from a purely manufacturing standpoint, tang stamping is a “Destructive Operation”.
The operation of cold forging the stamp impression into the surface of the steel introduces considerable stresses & surface distortions into the blade.
This translates into significantly more warping (distortion in both planes) during heat treat.
At Camillus we lost a few complete runs of Becker blades because the tang stamp went a few thousandths of an inch too deep! We intentionally relocated all stamps to the blade spine, when possible, to minimize the blade’s performance reduction. Even then, on almost every broken Becker blade I reviewed, the crack ran thru the stamp. :barf:

Today’s Laser marking systems frankly obsolete the need to tang stamp the blade.
The Chinese knife industry is very young; I suspect they just began using the best tools for each job.

I cannot speak for other brands, but A.G. Russell’s laser marks would be a pain to remove by hand, & only a knife maker could do it without the tampering being obvious. What’s more you would be removing the blade steel mark also!

A.G. has always clearly stated every knife’s country of origin.
It is shown for every one of his knives in the catalog, on the web site & on the blade itself.

A.G is proud of his knives.
He is also proud of his knife makers!
 
Phil, I hope you could tell from the tenor of my post that the issue of the etch (and its ability to be removed...to whatever purpose) was not at all directed at A.G. or his business practices.

I have received A.G's catalogs for many a year and I am familiar with the fact that he makes no secret of a knife's country of origin or the fact that it's imported. Nor should he. I'd be shocked if it were otherwise.

(I have not seen any of these recent "traditional" imports in person and cannot comment upon them but, again, they weren't what I was directing my earlier comment toward.)

I have seen the etch on some knives such as Rough Rider, Steel Warrior (and similar) that were sent to me by forum members for examination. On those knives the etch was easily removed. I had been alerted to this characteristic and so tested for myself. Once removed there was no indication of point of origin beyond name recognition and the characteristics of those knives.

Getting back to my earlier post...my point was simply that one should (imho) have the courage of their convictions. If you like the knife and don't mind the overseas origin then you should get over how it is "marked". On the other hand, if the "mark" is somehow bothersome (beyond the cosmetic) then perhaps it is indicative of deeper running currents. Whether that current derives from feeling bad about purchasing a knife of overseas manufacture OR simply from fear of embarrassment of not being able to hang out with the "cool kids" is something each must answer for themselves. (When I rode a Honda I knew that some of the Harley guys might look askance at it but I never tried to remove the badges to hide its origin. Then again, most guys I knew that were riders could appreciate a good machine, regardless.)

By the way, Phil, you may not remember but we've met at Blade Shows past. I believe we were introduced by Will and Wallace Fennell.
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
STeven , I don't think it about that he can't have the knives made stateside , from the way I understand it he couldn't have them made stateside and hit the same price point. And my guess is he knows the market very well and knows what price point will sell in which style of knife.
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Not really.

Each American factory only has so much additional capacity.
Unfortunately there are a lot fewer American Cutlery Manufacturers to work with today. :mad:

His first knife that went to China was one that no one here wanted to do!

In a few months I will have been working for A.G. for 5 years.
At this point only about 5% of his designs that we have completed are in, or scheduled for production.

A.G. is constantly looking for new makers.
When NASA finds evidence of a cutting tool on another planet, the next morning there will be a spacesuit on my desk! :D
 
In my experience, made in the USA or Germany has always meant quality. I've also seen some Japanese Spanish made knives that were well made and of high qualty as well.

Only once has a knife made in China impress me, and that was a Spyderco Tenacious. This is a well made knife, but is still of mediocre quality. The steel is infrerior and the bushings too thin to offer long term functionality. However, it is still a decent knife for the money, came out of the box razor sharp and is one of the best knive's I've seen coming out of China. If I lose or wreck this knife, I'm not going to feel as bad as if it was my Spyderco Paramilitary 2.

With that said, at the ned of the day not everyone can afford a top of the line knife, so a knife made in China, Taiwan or Brazil gives working class people a chance to purchase a useable, needed tool.

Should AG Russell stop selling knives made in China? I think that's up for AG Russell to decide, just as it's up to the consumer to decide what is best for their needs.

I wouldn't use a $200.00 Bark River knife for general garden duties just as I wouldn't carry a made in China knife for survival use. But if needed an EDC working knife that could easily get lost or stolen, (and since inexpensive US made knives like Shcrade and Camillus are gone forever) I would buy a cheaper made in China knife, and use it like I stole it - and then if it got broken, stolen or lost I'd easily replace it without feeling as bad as if it were a GEC, Buck or Case knife.

That's just my two cents worth.
 
Blues said:
Phil, I hope you could tell from the tenor of my post that the issue of the etch (and its ability to be removed...to whatever purpose) was not at all directed at A.G. or his business practices.

I have received A.G's catalogs for many a year and I am familiar with the fact that he makes no secret of a knife's country of origin or the fact that it's imported. Nor should he. I'd be shocked if it were otherwise.

(I have not seen any of these recent "traditional" imports in person and cannot comment upon them but, again, they weren't what I was directing my earlier comment toward.)

I have seen the etch on some knives such as Rough Rider, Steel Warrior (and similar) that were sent to me by forum members for examination. On those knives the etch was easily removed. I had been alerted to this characteristic and so tested for myself. Once removed there was no indication of point of origin beyond name recognition and the characteristics of those knives.

Getting back to my earlier post...my point was simply that one should (imho) have the courage of their convictions. If you like the knife and don't mind the overseas origin then you should get over how it is "marked". On the other hand, if the "mark" is somehow bothersome (beyond the cosmetic) then perhaps it is indicative of deeper running currents. Whether that current derives from feeling bad about purchasing a knife of overseas manufacture OR simply from fear of embarrassment of not being able to hang out with the "cool kids" is something each must answer for themselves. (When I rode a Honda I knew that some of the Harley guys might look askance at it but I never tried to remove the badges to hide its origin. Then again, most guys I knew that were riders could appreciate a good machine, regardless.)

By the way, Phil, you may not remember but we've met at Blade Shows past. I believe we were introduced by Will and Wallace Fennell.
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Yes of course I remember Elliott; in fact I had lunch with Wallace just a few days ago as he was passing thru to the Tulsa Gun Show!

My sincerest apologies if my post suggested that; I know that was not your intent.
I was merely trying to state that critical truth for those that may scan these pages without your cutlery expertise.

Regarding the weakness of etch/marking on aforementioned gas station/flea market knives; the primary concern in the design/quote process for those products is cost per 1000 pieces.
Those poor Chinese vendors have probably got their laser markers writing faster than an American bank foreclosure robo-signer!
Those tang markings will probably be gone in a few thousand closings.
A.G. on the other hand specifies bearing washers in all these folders, so a tang would never be scratched by a liner! {Need sacrilege smiley}
We also mechanically cycle test every design to 300,000+ cycles for spring function & wear characteristics.
With A.G.’s warranty on his knives, it is my job to ensure they are the very best they can be.

As to folks who may be ashamed of their inexpensive Chinese knives. :confused:

Growing up in England, the “cool kids” rode Nortons & Triumphs; they laughed at my Kawasaki H2 750 2-stroke just the once! :p:p:p
 
Let's not forget the Vincent "Black Shadow"! :thumbup:

(And I'll bet you rode a GS Scooter with your hair cut neat...;))
 
Come on Elliot, you know the horrible truth about riding scooters; it's fun until your friends find out. :cool:
 
Phil Gibbs said:
Come on Elliot, you know the horrible truth about riding scooters; it's fun until your friends find out. :cool:
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You see, you Brits are so proper...over here they say it's like having relations with an unattractive partner...it might feel good but you don't want anyone to know!

(I worded that ever so carefully so as not to have my "moderator" card revoked. :rolleyes: ;))
 
Blues said:
You see, you Brits are so proper...over here they say it's like having relations with an unattractive partner...it might feel good but you don't want anyone to know!

(I worded that ever so carefully so as not to have my "moderator" card revoked. :rolleyes: ;))
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Yes, I was attempting to keep the Rotund Lady out of it!! :p
 
Phil Gibbs said:
Growing up in England, the “cool kids” rode Nortons & Triumphs; they laughed at my Kawasaki H2 750 2-stroke just the once! :p:p:p
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Wow... you don't hear that bike mentioned very often

I had the same experience phil. They whined and crabbed about it being a "rice burner" but when that ol' blue 73' H2 left the line and they werent catching me, they shut up and didnt wanna talk about it...ever. This one harley guy used to flip me off every time he'd see me after i blew by him at about 90mph on the highway. He about browned himself and only tried to catch me that once and failed. I wish i never got rid of that bike. I do know where theres one not too far from me. If i ever get rich, i'll ride one again. For now i'll haveta settle for my 78' KZ1000. I've been a Kawi fan all my adult life.

As far as the USA vs. China deal......
I buy quality. That is my criteria. I prefer USA made but we just don't always make em' like we used to. In the end i will buy from whomever gives me the quality i desire. If their customer service matches that quality, all the better. I'm sure AG Russell meets both, no matter where his wares are produced.
 
I wouldn't even consider buying a Chinese made slipjoint for a lot of reasons. I will buy one that was designed and built to Mr. Russell's specifications. I won't buy a boat load of them but I will buy one. The other stuff I have seen (Chinese made slipjoints) are at best laughable in terms of what a slipjoint should be. There is a large grouple crowd that defend them with the "Can't beat them for the money" line of thought and they are welcome to them.
Greg
 
I agree John. Without Mr. Russells's influence they would be in line with the other.........................stuff
Greg
 
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