A Poll - Is Pre-Selling At A Knifeshow...??

[FrankDL]

Don't get me wrong, I harbor no ill will toward the makers or dealers that engage in pre-selling, as I realize that it's a free-market society, and makers do (and should) want to ensure that their works will sell, and realize a profit for thier toil. My particular experience at the Solvang show was more of a mild disappointment than anything else. There were many of the high-end makers that were sold out in the first 15 minutes of the doors opening. Now I don't know if these were pre-sales to dealers or not, but it is rather disappointing to see color pictures of knives at the tables rather than the real deal. I havn't been back to that show since, and that's my free-market decision. I just hope that experience like mine doesn't become the norm, because if it does, I would predict a decline in show attendance. Because, if your expectation of buying (or for that matter even seeing) a custom from hot maker is remote, then you'll probably stay home unless the show is in your home town.

I attended the Plaza Knife Show in San Diego two years ago and they had a neat arrangement. It was a two day affair, and it had a pre-viewing on the first night where you put your name in a drawing box in front of any knife of the maker. After several hours of viewing, the makers draw 3 names for each knife, and the selected winners (beginning with #1) have 30 minutes to say yea or ney to purchase. The makers had to have a certain amount of knives for the drawing, and then a certain amount of knives (non-drawing) for the general public for the second day. I bought tickets to go to both days and because of the drawing, I had an equal shot at getting to buy a knife from the top makers. I was able to get a Greg Lighfoot Proto of his Marauder folder. It was rather refreshing having an equal shot at getting something nice. I just wonder if this practice could be adopted at more shows? Just a though.

 

[Durwood]

It seems to me that a lot of makers pre-sell, and that practice doesn't really bother me...because I've been fortunate enough to pre-buy a few times

What bothers me more is makers who will not take an order...period, I realize some makers have been fortunate enough to have attained the popularity to have waiting lists that would exceed the common sense of such a practice...but it still bothers me If a maker doesn't take orders and I want one of his pieces of work, I accept his decision. What I will not accept is a maker selling me a piece and ageeing to make a similar piece with different handle material and after the sale changing his position. I had this happen last year, and I doubt I'll ever buy from him again.

 

[paulpiccola]

As a maker I perfer to have something on my table for the length of the show.
Not to say I would not like to sell out at every show. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a bird in the hand is priceless!?. I like to meet folks and discuss knives and knife making. I find the best way to acomplish this at shows, is to have a knife on the table for physical contact. I can parley with a dealer and make knives during the regular work week.
So, no I don't agree with pre selling at shows.

 

[Wulf]

If a maker and a dealer want to have a business relationship, they should feel free to conduct that business on whatever terms they choose.

However, in order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers need to have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers to do so.

 

[Architect]

If a maker and a dealer want to have a business relationship, they should feel free to conduct that business on whatever terms they choose.

However, in order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers need to have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers to do so.

Absolutely agreed on both paragraphs.

 

[Daniel Koster]

I have not voted....but I am definitely very interested in this discussion and what the general consensus will be.

I do think it's a valid question to ask because a maker needs to know if he's pissing off potential customers because of a policy like this.

I would think that most makers see things from a business point of view - which easily justifies the pre-sale.

The tables I enjoy stopping at usually have a folder with pictures of their wares so the "leave it on the table" idea isn't a necessity. (I wouldn't do it myself)

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

Many makers leave their shops and go to shows with no knives at all.
They have tables. They might have pictures they might have knives that they have borrowed from customers and or dealers.

They also have morals

I am not so sure that as a knife collector in the U.S. I have any business at all telling someone how or when to sell their knives and to whom they should sell them at least that is my view on things, but to say that someone has not met their moral obligations if they do not have knives at a show is way out there and I have to strongly disagree.

I am glad there are makers who come to shows without knives to sell at all. If they did not I would not get to meet them or place an order face to face.


---added with edit
My vote:
Preselling is OK in my opinion even though I may not agree with it. (At least in the U.S. where a maker is free to sell when they want to sell to the people they wish to sell.)

 

[RogerP]

=Gus KalanzisMy vote:
Preselling is OK in my opinion even though I may not agree with it. (At least in the U.S. where a maker is free to sell when they want to sell to the people they wish to sell.)

How's the view up there on the fence Gus? (Just yanking your chain buddy ) But seriously, no-one is really suggesting that makers don't have the right to sell the knives they made to whomever, whenever and at whatever price they want. The question isn't what they have a right to do. The question is what is the right thing to do.

There are so many pre-selling threads extant at the moment that I hope I am not repeating myself in each one, but my view is this: I have no blanket objection to pre-selling and can certainly understand why it may makes good financial sense for a maker to do so. A bird in the hand and all that. Makers may want to reward repeat customers or long-time dealer-partners with first crack at a couple knives. That's OK by me. (Heck, I have even benefitted from it. ) Where I have a bit of an issue is where Mr. Big-name-highly-sought-after-maker (who would easily sell out in a couple hours to the buying public), decides to pre-sell his entire table before the doors ever open.

It seems to me that when show promoters advertise the marquis list of table-holders, there is at least the implicit suggestion that there will be something actually on those tables for the paying public to have a chance at buying, or at least seeing. I mean, it is a knife show right? This is very much different from the situation where a maker, due to whatever circumstances, is unable to bring any knives to the show but attends anyway. I certainly applaud that. Different story where a dozen knives accompany him to the show but never make an appearance on his table.

At least SOME knives should be reserved for the people who paid for the privelege of attending the show (amd maybe even spending big $$$ to get there). The first guy in line should at least have a theoretical shot at a knife from the makers he went there to see.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[SharpByCoop]

The tables I enjoy stopping at usually have a folder with pictures of their wares so the "leave it on the table" idea isn't a necessity.

I SUPPORT THIS IDEA! he he he!

Gus and Roger: Yes. Exactly.

I didn't vote, sorry. It's just not black and white.

Coop

 

[Wulf]

Gus,

I didn't say knifemakers who don't have a knife at the show don't have morals. I said that those who attend shows have a moral obligation to have knives available for the showgoing public. Note the distinction. And don't give me that rolling your eyes crap when you're twisting my words.

The Blade Show is advertised by its promoters as having "over 500 tables offering custom-made and antique knives." This is a direct quote from the website.

See the part where it says "offering" custom-made knives?

Roger said, "there is at least the implicit suggestion that there will be something actually on those tables for the paying public to have a chance at buying, or at least seeing."

Well it's not implicit, it's explicit.

To paraphrase someone else, go ahead and hold a knife show without any knives. Call it a custom knifemaker show, and hand out awards for the knifemaker swimsuit competition or miss congeniality knifemaker. See how many people show up.

But a knife show is supposed to have knives. Instead of John Fitch in a speedo and tiara, we have the Best Bowie. And folks like me, who take time off work, book plane tickets, and get a hotel room, it's nice to see some of those knives, and maybe even get a shot at taking one home.

Yeah, I know, at the end of the day it's all about the people. Kind of like poker night. You don't go out to poker night to win a bunch of money from your friends, but when no one brings the cards, it kind of takes the fun out of poker night, don't you think?

It has been pointed out several times that many of the knifemakers in attendance make and sell knives for a living. They use knife shows, in part, as a venue for the promotion of their work. Those knifemakers who engage in practices that discourage collectors from attending knife shows do a disservice to the show promoters, the other tableholders (dealers included), the collectors, and ultimately themselves. Sure, they may make a few sales today, but they lose out in the long run. At best, they ride on the coattails of other makers who still draw in the crowds by offering the crowds a a knife to look at, talk about, or buy. At worst, they crowd out and alienate their own potential new customers. They become dependent on the dealers. Not a smart business practice, and not fair to the other guys.

 

[Bastid]

I happen to have a contract in front of me for next years Blade show seems that I do not see anything about a maker needing to bring knives for sale.

There is a big difference between advertising and a contract. (I know you are quite aware of that.) So I do not think the promoter's advertisement holds any water to your argument.

There is not a moral obligation for a table holder to have knives there.
There are plenty of makers who make less than a dozen knives a year (mainly because it takes them a month or more to make one knife.) They go to Blade with no knives to sell. I am glad they do. In most of those cases waiting lists are years long.

In another thread someone states that it is not ethical for a maker to have knives at a show when they have a waiting list. That does not wash with me either. Seems that a popular maker can't make their own decisions about the way they earn their living without violating someone elses definition of "moral obligations" and or ""ethics. As long as they are not violating their contract, my point is that they should do what is best for them. As far as the wording of an ad. that is altogether a different story.

I am not twisting words at all.

It is a silly and demeaning statement to these makers to say that they have a moral obligation to have knives for sale when they go to a show .

Lets start at the top of the list. Next year why don't you stop at the first table you see on your right. It will be Bill Moran's. Tell him he is not meeting his "moral obligations". I have been going to Blade for a long time. He has always had a table. He has never had a knife for sale (at least in the last 10 years.) It is always a highlight of the show to me to see his knives and the knives of others who have nothing to sell. You will be able to say the same thing to quite a few makers. I hope I have clarified my point about the "moral obligation" to have knives for sale at a show as being silly and demeaning to makers who do not have knives for sale because I do not have anything else to offer to convice you otherwise. By going to a show they keep the intrerest in their work stirred. That does no harm that I have seen over the years. The worst choice that they could make for thier future is what you espouse (indirectly) that they should not have a table.

You have essentially stated that if they have no knives for sale they should not get a table at a show unless they want to violate some "moral obligation". (Substantiated by the wording in an ad.) So what you are telling makers who have long waiting lists and strictly abide by them is that they should not hold tables at a show. Sorry that still does not wash no matter how you wish to twist it around.

added later during the evening.
I know of at least three makers in that position who feel "morally obligated" to purchase those tables stand there all weekend meeting folks and displaying some of their work that is in private collections. It is cash straight out of their pocket without return since they do not need the business. They are there for the passion of what they do and others that share that passion. They do not care if they take an order or not as far as the money. They are doing the right thing as far as I am concerned. The right thing for themselves, their fellow makers and collectors.

I am open to reasoning to convince me otherwise, but it will take some stronger convincing since the three that I am thinking of are friends.

I have talked about the exact thing we are discussing as far as having knives for sale on their table. (Years ago, I have even pushed them to do so before the show.) I have asked them why they go to the trouble and expense to come. I understand now - It is due to their passion and friends. Let's not take that away from them, because we are upset that we could not get one of their knives at a show and are not satisified to place an order and wait for one of there knives or buy it on the secondary market.

Folks I understand the feeling of not getting a knife that you want and are ready to purchase first hand. I experience it multiple times at every show I have attended. It is a part of collecting knives. A key is to order it, enjoy the wait. You can relish the wait and the knife when it finally is finished. I went to Blade this year with the goals of picking up a Brend from Walter (none for sale at any time except order deliveries), a knife from Richard Rogers, and the A.B.S. auction dagger.

I came home with a knife from Richard, a fancyied up Model 4 from Kit, a Tai Goo bowie (see Keiths current avatar), a Burger Sword cane (spinal arthritis can be a royal pain ), a Hugh Bartrug piece, and a Lochsa. Placed an order with Walter (and it does not really matter when it is ready.)

So in total I hit 33% of my goals for the show and it could not have been a better one for me. (Unless I had the chance to meet more people and spend more time with those I know.)

With 100% honesty I can say I would go anywhere in the mainland to attend it even if there were no knives for sale at Blade. Knives aside there are way too many friends gathered in one place to miss it. It would be a great time to get together and gawk not to mention coming home with a bank account un-affected for the most part. Having that attitude makes the collecting that much better (at least for me).

I have seen makers that bring knives that are commissioned and that they are in the middle of making. (Actually saw one very ornate knife displayed during its creation over two Blade Shows and the finished knife at the thrid.) Let's not send a message that he is doing a diservice to himself, fellow makers and collectors by doing so (long run or short run). I just don't see it at this point.

 

[marcangel]

I simply don't like the practice at all. If a maker is a sure "sell-out", and some who pre-sell are, what's the point? My primary goal of a show is two-fold, first to see the maker's work first hand before I commit to a large purchase. Second, I'm there to acquire knives. I would much prefer to purchase the knife from the maker, so we can talk about it a little. Also, I'd prefer to pay the maker's price as opposed to the dealer's price for obvious reasons.

I'm usually through with the East Coast Custom show or the NY show in 3-4 hours and on my way back home with my "booty". I might chat with a few makers I know, but I spend more time on the phone with them anyway since I'm an established customer. I don't want to take their time away from meeting NEW customers! It does REALLY freakin' tick me off when I make a time and travel commitment to go to a show and there are alot of empty maker tables. To have to pay a 20-30% "penalty" to buy a knife from a dealer that he's owned for less than 12 hours just about sends me orbital.

On the flip side, I understand the maker's position and hey this is America!

 

[GigOne]

With whom, when and where a maker sells his/her wares is strictly their business.


But. . . .I'll agree with a few here. . .it kinda irks me when a dealer buys a knife at the same price that I can have it for (from the maker) and the price is jacked up immediately after the dealer turns away from handing the the maker the money.

Yes. . .a dealer can charge what he/she wants for the wares that they're pimpin'.

And yes. . .I have the right to buy from a dealer. . .or not


It just leaves a very weighty and hard object in the pit of my stomach. And makes me go - - - - - -> and - - - - - > :grumpy:



But hey. . . .there are always better days ahead !

 

[Bastid]

I more than understand the frustration. (Even got the T-shirt).


Let's step back a little and put ourselves in the makers shoes.
Here is Gus the ugly greek knife maker . The lucky bastid is swamped with orders (6 months or a years worth) and he brings a few knives to Blade for sale. Dealer X brought knives from Gus before anyone ever knew Gus was a Greek (otherwise a decent knife maker.) Due to that support which kept food in the back yard for the goats in the early and lean years Gus wants to be able to repay that dealer in some way that helps both of them. Gus could sell the knives fast himself, but he is comfortable with the way the dealer conducts himself and represents Gus' work. Gus could sell the knife to anyone and on the secondary maket the knife can bring an immediate profit. Gus really enjoys selling knifes to collectors who will enjoy the knife. What should he do? (IMHO sell a few to the dealer sell a few to individuals when the show opens (expect some of them to turn them) and if you have some folks you want to take care that is ok too.)

Now there's Gig. (Taught Gus and a gaggle of others everything he knew.) Gig is on a pension, a retired brain surgeon out of Bethesda. He has a 6 year waiting list. He has all the money he needs and just loves to make knives and loves to see folks enjoy his work. He does not want or need his knifemakeing or the demand for his knives to cause pressure in his life. Gig has not had an available knife in decades.

Do we want to send the message that Gus is unethecal (maybe, maybe not but do we have the knowledge to make that decision).

Do we want to send the message to Gig that the bastid is "morally obligated" to have knives for sale on his table. (absolutely not in my opinion).

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Gus, I think it is fantastic that there are makers that will take a table at a show just because they thought that they should. If they have knives on their tables to take a look at then I would be as happy as a pig in ... well you know.

I certainly don't feel that makers have any moral or ethical obligation to have knives on their tables at the start of a show. However, the more empty tables that there are, the more I am not going to feel like going back to that show again.

 

[RWS]

After reading the good points on both sides of this issue, I still believe that if a big name, in demand maker comes to a show with knives to sell, he shouldn't sell them to the dealers before the show starts and even after the show starts a dealer should not get a discount on show knives.

The idea that it's none of my business what a dealer does with respect to the selling of his knives and to whom makes a lot of sense to me that is until I've paid some decent bucks to travel to a show only to find empty tables primarily due to pre-selling.

It seems at that point that it is my business. Just an opinion mind you.

I understand the "it's the people" thing, but as was mentioned earlier, without knives to look at at the shows which are made by these big names that draw a lot of people to them, I believe knife shows will suffer in attendance and quality with respect to the custom knife market.

 

[notdos]

In my short knife dealing career, I've noted that much of the pre-selling that goes on between makers and dealers/collectors is based solely on relationships. Being the first dealer to a makers table 2 hours before a show does not necessarily mean you can buy. Some makers hold back their knives for specific people(dealers and collectors alike). This is one of several motivating factors behind attending shows and building relationships.
I prefer to carry my purchases with me but don't mind leaving them on the table so that others can see them,, if the maker requests it.

 

[Kit Carson]

OK. I've decided.

I'm not bringing anymore knives to the Blade Show. I'll maintain my table (the one that I've had since 1987) and just put pictures on it. Maybe a DVD player in future years so customers can see what I used to bring.


This seriously goes against my normal policy.

I used to believe it was better to piss off a potential new customer by not having knives, rather than piss off a long standing customer by not selling him one that I made especially for him on my own time. (That long standing customer could be a dealer).

It's probably better this way since now I won't have those customers complain to me about having knives on my table when their order is still outstanding. Doesn't matter that they are only into 6 - 18 months of the 24+ months they were expecting.

Yea, you guys got me convinced..What a poll.




While I'm at it, guess I'd better call those special customers that are coming to the Guild show, on my invite. Sure hate telling them that they can't get anything from me until I leave those knives on the table for everyone to see. Man, I hope they are still around on Sunday. I got shoes I need to put on the kids. Reckon I can sell them at a huge discount near the end of the show and at least pay for my table and hotel room, if I'm lucky.


Now isn't that just silly?

Call it what you want, and vote your preference.


I plan to continue the way I've been doing a successful business for years to come. If you aren't a shareholder in Carson Custom Knives, Inc. your vote just doesn't count. If you aren't in my shoes, you have no business complaining about how they fit.

BTW, IMHO, presold means that I have the money in my pocket before I left for the show. Anything that happens after I get there is just plain Sold.

 

[bandaidman]

i consider myself in the "moderate" knife enthusiast camp ... my tastes are fairly well refined.... but i am not as "hard core" as many of the folks who have been posting here....and i am clearly not an advanced collector

for me to take 3-4 days away from my other pursuits and my family to go to a distant knife show would be a major commitment.

there are only 2 that interest me....blade and solvang (1 because of scope and size...the other because of location and quality)

blade has conflicted with a yearly family trip the last 4 years and i have never attended..... but i would like to someday

however i would be very disappointed if i did not get the opportunity to purchase any knives from the makers i am interested in....i would enjoy meeting some of the forum folks (guys like gus)...but would probably not be back soon if the trip was a washout buying-wise

that being said...the hard core collectors will probably go no matter what

its the rest of us that will stop going. the internet has really allowed one to learn and see a lot of things about this hobby without ever going to a knife show

that is probably not a great thing for the health of the hobby long term though

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

RWS,

Why are you so dead set against a dealer getting knives at a show?

I simply can't unerstand it. Dealers spend lots of time building a good working relationship with these makers. They invest the time, money, and energy into promoting this makers wears. In a lot of cases, certain dealers spend more money with some makers in a years time then any collector the maker has.

Why is it so bad for makers to take care of their dealers? Dealers offer a lot to their makers, and a lot of times, it is simply appreciation for the promotion the dealer has given them in the past.

Also, as was stated earlier, a lot of knives "pre-sold" are orders being delivered. If a dealer has 5 knives ordered from maker X, and each knives is valued at $500. That is shipping and insurance for 5 knives at $2,500 total. That's an extra $50-75 that can be saved by setting up delivery for the show.

Also, some custom orders are also ready then. If the customer is going to be a the show, it is nice for a maker to bring the knife for pick up there. The customer gets to meet the maker, and the maker gets to see the joy on the customers face. It's a win-win situation.

Of the knives I picked up at Blade via "pre-sell," 1 was ordered the year before (the maker only has 8 month wait, i just wanted to pick it up from him in person.) Two were part of a trade I did with a maker. I had something he really wanted, and I also collect his knives. The other was a maker without a table, holding a knife to give me first right of refusal.

Call it evil, immoral, unethical, whatever... Bottom line, pre-securing is a common ethical business practice that takes places in all areas of business. Either get with the program, or get out of my way. I am really having a hard time feeling sorry for people who refuse to takes the steps needed to get the knives they want.

JR