A Poll - Is Pre-Selling At A Knifeshow...??

Is Pre-Selling To Dealers At A Knife Show

  • OK?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Not OK?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Why is the obsession on dealers? Is it ok to sell out to collectors before the doors open, as long as it's not dealers?

This is getting ridiculous. I like what Kit said earlier. Once a maker arrives at a show, a knife is not pre-sold, it's just sold.

JR
 
Jeremy Reynolds said:
Why is the obsession on dealers? Is it ok to sell out to collectors before the doors open, as long as it's not dealers?

This is getting ridiculous. I like what Kit said earlier. Once a maker arrives at a show, a knife is not pre-sold, it's just sold.

JR
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As you said, some makers bring knives from orders to the respective customer. This is ok, IMO.

These makers also bring knife show inventory.
Is it ok to sell knife show inventory to a customer who cuts in line before the doors open? Probably not.
 
The whole cutting in line thing is really really far off. No one is cutting anywhere. If any show goer has the same oppertunity to buy from a maker thursday night or place a call before the maker leaves, no one is cutting in line, period. Some folks are simply taking advantage of oppertunities that present themselves.

JR
 
Wulf, can you narrow this one down some?
"who currently still make and sell knives in reasonable quantities,"

And is it just a problem if the maker sells to dealers?

If he sells a few to some of his long term customers that buy 4-8 knives a year from him and have been for longer than a decade, is that ok? I'm talking about when the show opens at 2 pm, not noon for VIPs since most of those guys were in the show from 9 am on.

FWIW, I wasn't aware until Wulf mentioned it that you could pay $10 and get a VIP pass. I thought they were sent out by the makers/manufacturers only, and for the purpose of getting Your VIP customers into the show ahead of the normal crowd.
 
Thanks guys. Now that that point has been clarified. I get out of this thread so you can tell these low life knifemakers :D how they need to conduct their business.
 
Jeremy, you have made a lot of very good arguments and some not so good.

Let me ask you this, if all the showgoers do what you say and try and secure a knife before the show starts, instead of waiting for the show to start, wouldn't you then have a line start to form on Thursday night as a result of your practice and wouldn't there then be the same type of shortage in available knives under your practice as we have now with the actual knife show. Then what? Wednesday night? How about going to Fitch's house a week before the show and taking him out to dinner?

Are you going to be upset that you can no longer secure a knife under your practice because eveyone else is now doing it?
What's the next iteration in the process of getting that knife you want at the cost of the knife show?

There needs to be some basic self-governing rules to insure the quality of the actual knife show, IMO.
 
Kit,
There are exceptions to every rule. Gus pointed out that Bill Moran doesn't bring knives to a show. Well he doesn't really make knives anymore, he's not there to sell them, and folks don't go to shows to buy from him. Gus also mentioned that there are makers whose production is extremely low, due perhaps to the style of knife they make. Again, for them, there is no reasonable expectation among buyers that they'll have a big inventory, but collectors will maybe get a chance to see the work in person and discuss it with the maker directly.

Now I don't want to make the mistake of trying to lay out specific numbers here. That would betray my intent.

What it ultimately boils down to is that knife show attendees have a reasonable expectation that, if they play by the rules and get to the show on time, they will have the opportunity to buy a knife from a maker like yourself. This is expressed in the show's promotional materials and is generally accepted by the attendees. For most, in fact, that opportunity is their justification for incurring the cost and taking the time to go to the show in the first place. However, more and more frequently - particularly with the advent of internet based dealer sales - many of a show's attendees have been left disappointed. If that trend continues, such that most, if not all knives are pre-sold to dealers, then eventually the idea of a knife show will become obsolete - replaced by those virtual knife shows on the www - and makers will become more dependant upon those internet dealers to sell their work.

Of course this is what the dealers want, and it's why they will make every effort to move the business in this direction. Think about it. They won't have to leave their desk, but can make $30,000 on every $100,000 worth of knives, just for acquiring those knives and posting pictures of them (how much work do you have to put in to make $30,000 from your knives?) Not a bad gig for the internet dealer. But it comes at the expense of the collectors, the show promoters, and the makers.

See, I'm just trying to look out for good guys like you, Kit :)
 
you guys are living in a dream world, if you think dealers are going to buy up all the knives pre-show. There's not a dealer operating that could come close.

As people pointed out earlier, there were thousands of knives left on Sunday when the show closed. And thousands of people looking at them.

I will not tell a maker how to run his business. If he doesn't want to sell to me because I wore orange that day, that is his right. If he chooses to sell to me over another collector cause I wore orange and the other guy wore pink, then that is his right as well.

RWS, it's simple. If everyone calls the makers, all they have to do is say yes, or no. I have no problem with a maker choosing who gets their knives and who doesn't. Let's face it, there are a lot of pricks in this world and a person who puts their heart and soul into a hand crafter product deserves the right to sell or refuse to sell to anyone they want, any where they want.

JR
 
The problem with this discussion is not the topic (pre-selling - still a valid concern)....it's the assumption that somehow it's "on the rise"....increasing amongst table holders, and that it will someday overcome an entire show.

This is a grave error. There will always be makers with knives on their tables. Perhaps the overall percentage of "pre-sellers" will fluctuate, but to insinuate that it will increase until "everybody's doing it" is absurd....


...and still smacks of sour grapes. :p


Why not get a camera, learn HTML and become a dealer yourself...?

:D
 
Are you suggesting that the internet, and internet based dealers, have not had an impact on the way custom knives are bought and sold in today's market?

The internet has made the market much more efficient, and has created a much larger audience for custom knife sales. It allows dealers to drastically reduce their overhead. Many feel they don't need to get tables at shows anymore, as long as they can get the knives before their customers can get to them.

Now usually, when markets become more efficient, transaction costs decrease. But if the internet knife dealers can still get a 30% markup from the cost to them, while reducing overhead and marketing expenses, then that's the direction the business will head. More knives on internet dealer inventories, less knives on tables at shows, less buyers attending shows.

Too often, it feels like these dealers are competing with their customers instead of working with them.
 
Good point Daniel. (I am still trying to figure out a maker who consistantly has sold all their knives before shows are opened and am not coming up with anyone for some odd reason). Even if I was aware of someone who did that all the time and even if I do not think it is right who am I to tell him that what he is doing is wrong.

(That is not sitting on a fence it is just saying that it is OK for a maker to do what they feel is best despite what I think. That includes selling a knife to any one they want to sell it to at any time at any price they decide.) :D

Before a show, if I know I am going to have uncommitted cash, I think about makers whose work I would like to add to my collection. I go only with the thought that if I am lucky I might get one of those knives and no other expectation of what I or anyone else will aquire and how. I try to focus on one or two tables to see if I can get there when the knives are being sold.

If I don't get one, I might find something else I would enjoy, if I do not it is no big deal. I can watch a Bose lotterry not win a thing and honestly be happy for the folks that do. That is just me and my attitude toward collecting. I decided a long time ago that I do not have a deep need for any knife and my happiness is not connected to the aquisition of a knife. I just enjoy them and the people who make and collect them.

If folks go to a show and expect to be able to get every knife they want and can afford they need to think again. I feel lucky when I can get one of 4 or 5 that I hopped for and if I do not even get one, it is not going to affect my enjoyment of the show at all.

And yes, I encourage makers to establish a trusting relationship with dealers. Sound ethical dealers do this hobby a lot more good than the harm people are trying hard to illustrate here. I know and admire makers who offer dealers discounts and allow them to buy a knife or two before a show I also know and admire makers who give dealers and friends the same chance (price and opportunity) as a stranger when the doors open.

A side note.
This year a talented and not very well known M.S. made his first folder. We are friends and I mean close friends. He did not tell anyone about it nor did he display it. When I got home late Saturday night there was knife in my briefcase wrapped in a paper towel secured with scotch tape. I unrolled a beautiful anodized TI handled folder with at least a 2000 layer colored damascus blade and am not ashamed that I came to tears. How do you repay a gesture like that. I tried to by giving him my first knife and getting a stamp for him from Uncle Al. There is no knife that I could aquire that can replace the people I have been fortunate to have in my life from this hobby and my sorrow goes out to those who do not open themselves to that part of the hobby placing knives above all else.
 
Posted by Bastid:

Now there's Gig. (Taught Gus and a gaggle of others everything he knew.) Gig is on a pension, a retired brain surgeon out of Bethesda. He has a 6 year waiting list. He has all the money he needs and just loves to make knives and loves to see folks enjoy his work. He does not want or need his knifemakeing or the demand for his knives to cause pressure in his life. Gig has not had an available knife in decades.
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There is another Gig in this world ? :( :barf:



Posted by Kit:

I'm not bringing anymore knives to the Blade Show.
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If this is true. . .I’m pitchin’ a small tent in Kit’s front yard. :D


Posted by JR:

Cheesedick (wulf)

My post after Kit's was a joke. Get over yourself.

I made a typo, ooops. I guess I should be flogged to death now.
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I’m glad that warm coffee, passing thru the nasal cavity, doesn’t hurt ! :D


Posted by JR:

If Kit stops bringing knives to show to sell to me before the doors open, I am gonna save all my vacation time and money to fly from town to town being the holy crap out of all whiners crying about pre-sells.
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Can I help ? :)
 
Bastid said:
Even if I was aware of someone who did that all the time and even if I do not think it is right who am I to tell him that what he is doing is wrong.
Click to expand...

Gus my friend,

This thread (and its ever-growing family) is precisely about what we (whether we be makers, collectors or dealers) think is "right" when it comes to pre-selling. Expressing an opinion about that is not the same thing as telling a maker what to do (or not to do) with his knives. As has been often said before, makers are free to do what they want with their knives, and are free to accept all, part or absolutely none of anything that has been said here.

While we're sharing anecdotes, here's one of mine.

And no, I'm not going to name names, so don't ask. :p But this isn't second-hand, I was there.

I was among the first dozen people through the door at a knife show. One of my very first stops was at the table of Maker X - one of those aforementioned in-demand makers. To my surprise (and the surprise of a few others), the table was empty - as in no maker, no knives, no nothing. About an hour goes by and I've cruised by the table a few times and picked up the word from a few hopefuls hanging around that Maker X is running late but will be attending.

More time passes, and I've successfully emptied my pockets of anything even closely resembling cash. ;) I happen to spot Maker X making a bustling belated entry. Though I no longer have any dough I still feel compelled to rush over to his table and I'm at the very front of a small crowd that has quickly gathered. While Maker X's capable assistant sets out the (8 or so) knives he is passing up from a duffle bag, an internet retailer approches him behind the table and has a very short conversation wherein both wisper, look meaningfully toward his table and nod. Dealer quickly departs and Maker X turns toward a fellow who has picked up a beautiful knife from the table and is beaming with anticipation. "How much does this one run?" he asks. Maker X "Um, it's sold. They're all sold."

Now I wasn't privy to the conversation but 5 of those knives appeared on the dealer's site two weeks later. Maybe the dealer had pre-ordered all five and was simply taking delivery. Maybe he had bought all 8 on the spot, sold 3 at the show and so "only" 5 made it to his web site. They sure didn't last long there either.

Now, as I said, I wasn't in position to buy anything - I was lucky to be able to buy dinner that night - but there were some SERIOUSLY unhappy campers in that group.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Daniel,

I really liked your post. You hit a lot of good points.

I believe the biggest misconception from this thread, is that selling before the doors open is a new problem that is going to sweep over the knife world. This has been going on for years and years, since the beginning of knife shows. And guess what? The custom knife world grows larger every year. I don't think it's hurting the knife community, nor will it start to do so in the future.

Is show attendance declining? I don't know, I have only been going to knife shows the past 3 Blade Shows. They all looked packed to me.

As wulf pointed out, the emergence of the internet in the knife community is the biggest factor shows are competing with, not selling before the doors open.

In years past, you either had to go to shows or look in classified ads in the magazines to see knives you wanted. Makers and dealers had to snail mail catalogs.

Now, you have internet dealers, makers with websites with available knives, and various forums with for sale sections. People can take $1,500 in travel expenses and spend it on some nice knives without ever leaving the house.

So, as far as I can see, it is the internet that shows have to worry about, not the makers selling in the hotel lobby the night before.

Gig, glad I could make someone laugh today :)

You gonna make it to the Guild show this year?
JR
 
Kit Carson said:
Keith,
Look at it this way. Due to work committments, you can't make it to the Blade Show until Saturday. Am I, or any maker, expected to hold knives on Friday, just so you can get a chance to see knives on tables? (And I'm just using you as an example :))
Do you see the guy that made it into the show at exactly noon on Friday as beating you out of a knife that you should have had the chance to see or buy?



There are too many assumptions going on in this thread.
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No. If I can't make it to a show until Saturday, or for that matter Friday a few hours after the show opens, then that is my tough luck. When the doors first open to the public though, I do have some expectations that makers will have knives on their tables (those that went there with intentions of selling knives in the first place).

Steven; no I have not been to one of the big shows, but I have been to a few smaller ones. This is a much bigger problem at smaller shows, because empty tables stick out more.

As I have stated before, my main focus when I go to shows is not the purchasing of knives; it is to check out the work of makers that I am interested in, to see knives and to visit with friends and meet people face to face that I have talked to on the phone. I have however bought a few custom knives at shows.

Look, I realize that no matter how good the intentions of the makers are, there are going to be empty tables when a show opens up to the public. Makers do have to take care of their best customers, be they collectors or dealers. Some makers are looking to start a relationship with a dealer and will sell to them before the show for that reason. All I hope for is that a maker goes to the show with the full intention of having knives on his/her table to sell when the show officially opens to the public. If for some unforeseen reason the maker sells out before the show opens, that's the way it goes.
 
In order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers, who currently still make and sell knives in reasonable quantities, should have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers not to pre-sell their entire inventory

I've enjoyed this thread and learned much from EVERYONE. I'm going to step up and say that *I* think Wulf's statement is right on. It's an ideal, to be sure, but not an out-of-place ideal.

I'm seeing some very good people who I wish would scratch their heads and say "Maybe he has a good point...", instead of calling his scenario absurd, or worse—start calling names and rolling eyes. Pour yourselves some decaf.

Wulf pointed it out and it bears repeating, that the internet is now the biggest threat to the knifeshow as it has been in the past. 'Preselling' or what-have-you is simply a part of this phenomena. The issue deserves attention. Knifeshows are here to stay, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved upon. So is the internet. And we need to hash out how to fulfill both needs.

At ANY rate there still is a lot of passion in this devotion and world. I'm ever-thankful! :D

Coop
 
Coop,

I wouldn't mind giving wulf the props he deserves, if he was right. But simply, he isn't

There is no moral right anywhere for anymaker to have knives for any specific person. If the maker wants to sell all his knives to the TSA agent at the airport, he can. Where is there a moral right to provide you knives?

I think, as someone said in another thread, that this issue is not about right or wrong, but about some people not getting what they want. They feel it's their right to get their way, and it's not.

The makers moral obligation, as I see it, is too condut his business in an honest and ethical manner. If the maker is honest about selling knives the minute he gets to the hotel, that works. Where is the moral obligation he save knives for some one else?

And before you go rushing to Wulf's aid, he was the one who started the mud-slinging and name calling. He doesn't need your defense.

JR
 
In my opinion this has nothing to do with moral obligations. What it has to do with is the fact that people are going to a knife show. A knife show is a place to see, handle and maybe purchase knives; not a place to check out table tops.
 
Keith,

You are being silly now. There are always going to be empty tables at show, especially after the first 30 minutes. You aren't going to walk around and see every knife from every table, it's impossible.

I bought my knives at a knife show. Before the doors opened or after matters not. I went to a knife show to buy knives, and I accomplished that goal quite well.

If you don't want to see empty tables, don't ever go to a knife show. Before it's over, there will be plenty of them.

Besides, the number of tables that still had knives for sale on Sunday evening at Blade were too numerous to count. I think people are being extremely unrealistic and unfair in their judgement of people selling out their entire stock to a dealer or a couple of dealers pre-show. It may happen for a couple of makers, but people here make it sound like every top maker is doing it, and the show is full of empty tables. That is very untrue and always will be.

JR
 
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