A Poll - Is Pre-Selling At A Knifeshow...??

[Jeremy Reynolds]

If Kit stops bringing knives to show to sell to me before the doors open, I am gonna save all my vacation time and money to fly from town to town being the holy crap out of all whiners crying about pre-sells.

JR

 

[Daniel Koster]

come on, Kit....tell us how you really feel...


Bruce Bump didn't have much on his table - I think he spent most his time collecting orders and talking about his pistol/axe.

People who buy from Bruce know that already.


The idea that's funny to me is this:

There are some makers that have a huge waiting list, but bring finished blades to the show. I've seen this aggravate a few people....the whole "coulda finished mine instead" idea....but then what....the guy can't bring knives to a Blade Show?

The reason I didn't vote is that this kinds of reasoning is a circular argument. There is no end to it. Just gotta adapt.



Hope this isn't just a case of sour grapes...

 

[Keith Montgomery]

It is interesting to get the opinions from both sides of the table. I would like to see more makers thoughts on this subject.

Kit, I totally understand what you are saying, but for me the two key words are KNIFE and SHOW. Without knives it isn't a knife show, it is a get together for knife folks. Nothing wrong with that, but if I were to put out the huge amount of money that it would cost me to go to any knife show, I would be extremely disappointed if when I walked through the doors at opening time I found a bunch of empty tables. Maybe I am being unrealistic in thinking this way, but that is the way I think nonetheless.

Hypothetically, wouldn't it be something if one day there was a knife show where all the makers sold every one of their knives before the show got under way. That would be a very successful show for the makers and a complete waste of time and money for those going with the expectation of seeing and possibly purchasing knives. Actually, it wouldn't be good for makers either, because all those people would be very reluctant to ever go to a knife show again.

For the purpose of this and the other threads on this topic, pre-selling means selling knives taken to sell at the show before the show opens. The knives don't have to be paid for before the maker leaves for the show. In my opinion, that is just delivering a sold knife at the show instead of shipping it.

 

[Kit Carson]

Keith,
Look at it this way. Due to work committments, you can't make it to the Blade Show until Saturday. Am I, or any maker, expected to hold knives on Friday, just so you can get a chance to see knives on tables? (And I'm just using you as an example )
Do you see the guy that made it into the show at exactly noon on Friday as beating you out of a knife that you should have had the chance to see or buy?



There are too many assumptions going on in this thread.

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

Pre-selling is not going to stop anytime in the near future. It happens in all industries, movies, shows, cars ect.. If you want great seats for a concert they usually give out numbered wristbands and you wait in line and get to buy before the general public. It's a matter of getting a wristband or a VIP pass.

From a makers point of view pre-selling has a couple of main advantages.
1- If I can sell a knife before the show starts it can cover most of my expenses ,hotel, car rental, food, and table cost.

2- Selling to a dealer at a discount and developing a relationship helps me sell knives on a consistant basis. If I attend a show and don't do too well I can either call a dealer or visit his table and sell a few more knives. Otherwise those knives sit around till the next show. Everyone always wants to see the new knives, what's hot. If you have the same knives at 2-3 shows they become old news.

3- There is so much competition at the blade show because of it's size that pre-selling guarantees you a sale. There are many people making similar styles of knives, and the show is so big and overwhelming that people have a difficult time making up their minds on what they want to buy. The other thing is that the show is so big that by the time most people get to the end of the show they have spent all of their money. So even if they wanted one of your knives they are tapped out. If you sold it to them before the show started then they would have the knife and you would have the money!

4- Just how many knives are these guys bringing with them that sell everything before the show? 6, 8, 10? Usually only dealers have the bankroll to buy all of their knives at once.

The bottom line is that the pratice of pre-selling everything to a dealer will come back to bite the maker in the end. Those makers are in the business for the short money. They make a quick buck, don't have to hang out at their table all day and answer the same questions over and over again. The drawback is that no one knows who they are! Out of sight out of mind! The public does not get to see their knives and purchase them at retail. The maker also looses potential orders. If you r going to pre-sell everything why pay for a table in the first place?

I'm saying that the maker should pre-sell a few knives but still have some on his table for the public to purchase or at least handle and use as a basis to place an order.

 

[Wulf]

Gus,
Don't confuse the issue. Is Bill Moran pre-selling knives to dealers before the show opens? Do attendees go there with a reasonable expectation to be able to buy one of his knives from him? Didn't think so.

Jeremy,

Either get with the program, or get out of my way.

Nice. Real nice. Hope I don't ever find myself between you and a knife you want.

I am gonna save all my vacation time and money to fly from town to town being the holy crap out of all whiners crying about pre-sells.

I assume you meant "beating the holy crap," but your illiteracy got in the way again. Whatever, tough guy. Now I think it's time you grow up, or remove yourself from this thread before you make yourself look like an even bigger ass.

I used to believe it was better to piss off a potential new customer by not having knives, rather than piss off a long standing customer by not selling him one that I made especially for him on my own time. (That long standing customer could be a dealer).

You need to note the distinction between delivering an order, and allowing a few guys to pick through or secure your whole inventory before the show begins. And how many frickin' times do I need to say that I'm not asking anyone to hold a knife for me? Seriously, Kit, I've said this at least three times now in two threads and you keep sayin things like "Am I, or any maker, expected to hold knives..." Well, for the fourth or fifth time, no, you're not being asked to hold knives for anyone once the doors open to the public. Got that?

If you want great seats for a concert they usually give out numbered wristbands and you wait in line and get to buy before the general public

This analogy, and Jeremy's analogy about football tickets, just doesn't work, because anyone is able to get one of those wristbands as long as they get in line soon enough. Anyone = general public. The same holds true for VIP passes/early bird tickets at Blade, which can be bought by the general public for ten bucks.

Lastly, many makers have pointed out that for them, a major priority is to cover the expense of attending a show. Now I might argue that those expenses are a marketing expense. Just like an ad in a knife magazine. But do you feel compelled to cover your marketing expenses before placing the ad in Knives Illustrated? Of course not.

But as long as we're talking about revenues and expenses, what do you call a 30% dealer discount on $3000 worth of knives? A Nine Hundred Dollar Marketing Expense, that's what.

So in addition to your transportation, table, hotel, and meal expense, you just incurred a huge additional expense. It might get your knives a little more exposure to that dealers' customers and it might give you the proverbial bird in the hand, but it ain't cheap. And it means that you just gave up the opportunity to cultivate your own customer relationship with that knife. That "opportunity cost" is yet another expense. Think about it.

Now tell me, how much does a 1/2 page color ad in Blade magazine cost? That will get you some pretty good exposure too. In fact, in will put your knives in front of a heck of a lot more potential customers than a dealer who sells the knife at that very same show, or a dealer who sells the knife to one of his established VIP customers without ever even putting a picture up on his website. Don't forget, as I mentioned in another thread, there's a very prominent dealer who once boasted in this forum that the vast majority of the knives he sells never even make it on his website. Hey - that's some great exposure!

 

[Kohai999]

Hey Guys,

Don't take this the wrong way, but.....do either of you even go to the Blade Show, or the Guild show, or Solvang or the Las Vegas Classic?

Have you ever spent money on Custom Knives at a show?

See, even the first 30 minutes of a custom show is like a feeding frenzy in a shark tank, and that is unpleasant for me. Anything that I can do to avoid that, including pre-buying days before, or calling on the telephone in advance to find out if someone is going to have something that I would like.

If you don't attend the shows, and don't know what they are like, and don't buy once you are there, you don't really have a lot of room for a strong opinion, because you don't really know anything.

I'm not being nasty, or trying to flame, that is just the truth. This is a business, not a Sunday ice cream social. Experience is really what seperates amateurs from professionals, and this includes collectors. The only way to get experience is to do your homework, talk to makers, establish relationships, go to shows, and buy knives.

Regards,

Steven Garsson

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

Cheesedick (wulf)

My post after Kit's was a joke. Get over yourself.

I made a typo, ooops. I guess I should be flogged to death now.

You want to insult my intelligent, yet you are the one who is too stupid to pick up a phone and place an order pre-show. Then you come on here and and whine and cry because your stupidity cost you a knife you wanted.

And you won't have to worry about being between me and a knife I want. I'm smart enough to order them in advance so I can laugh at idiots like you who cry about not getting what they want. Next show we attend together, I'll bring you some Midol to help get you through the weekend, so I don't have to hear you complain.

JR

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

Steven,

That is the best post I have seen on any of these threads. It is dead nuts on. And yes, i attend shows. So I know exactly where you are coming from.

My first Blade show, I did the run in with everyone else. I looked lost. I had no clue where to go or what to do. I lost out on knives I truely wanted because they were already gone.

Now, I make sure I get what I want nailed down. It works out well for me, as I get the knife I long for. It works out well for the maker because I am a collector paying full price. Everybody wins.

JR

 

[RWS]

So much for civil.

 

[Jeremy Reynolds]

Story time.

Blade 2003, I was contacted by a maker whom I collect that said he had a knife available with the material he knew I liked. So, I secured my purchase of that and another pre-show.

Friday morning, I had already gotten the knives I really really wanted. So, when the show opened, I was free to just slowly stroll through and browse.

Luckily, Dan Farr wasn't quite the name he is this year in this business. I strolled by his table to find no other customers and a table full of knives. His knives immediately caught my eye, and I handled several pieces. I ended up being the first purchase of the show for Dan, and got a beautiful hunter that is an amazing work horse.

Had I been caught up in the frenzy of running from table to table trying to get the stuff I secured in advance, I would have probably never made it to Dan's table. By being able to just casually stroll through the show during the frenzy, I was able to meet a great man and purchase a fine knife.

JR

 

[RogerP]

So much for civil.

Yep. Could see it coming.

Roger

 

[Kit Carson]

Civil was getting nowhere. Maybe now we can get to the real issues before it gets locked up

Seriously, some of you guys make some valid points. None that will change my way of doing business, but hey, that's just me.

Wulf, glad you didn't use caps. It'd made me sad that you were yelling at me Got it?

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

Wulf,

However, in order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers need to have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers to do so.

What issue am I confusing.

You made the above statement that table holders have a "moral obligation" to have knives for sale at a show. There is no clarification there about pre-selling that I see. I point out what I thought about the statement as well as what I think about folks who are trying to tell people how to do business.

I am not confused at all. Seems that you are not either. Next Blade Show go around to the makers who have no knives for sale and tell them they are not meeting their moral obligations or clarify the above.

If that statement only pertains to preselling all their knives, then maybe you ought to clarify it instead of making it so general. At that I still do see how you or anyone else has the ability to tell if a maker has met their "moral obligations".

 

[Wulf]

Hey Guys,

Don't take this the wrong way, but.....do either of you even go to the Blade Show, or the Guild show, or Solvang or the Las Vegas Classic?

Have you ever spent money on Custom Knives at a show?

Yes, and yes.

I have attended the last two Blade shows (travelling from Vermont, mind you) and have spent, on average, about $4000 each time. I also attend the NY knife shows and typically spend a few dollars there too. In addition to that, I typically place orders at shows, or shortly thereafter based upon what I saw and who I met.

I don't know how this might help you understand some of the viewpoints that have been presented in this thread, but hey, I'm glad I could help.

Kit,
Glad we understand eachother.

Gus,
I guess we just don't see eye to eye on this one. Not much more I can say that hasn't already been said. I think that a maker has an obligation to his customers (without whom he'd be out of a job), the show promoters (without whom he wouldn't have a show to attend), and his fellow makers (without whom there wouldn't be an industry), not to sell everything before the show opens to the public. You, apparently, don't, and it doesn't appear as though either of us will change our minds. The best I can hope is that you understand where I'm coming from and why. I'm not entirely sure that's the case, but I tried...

Jeremy,
Not responding to you anymore...

 

[Wulf]

If that statement only pertains to preselling all their knives, then maybe you ought to clarify it instead of making it so general.

Gus,
See thread title.

Oh, and just so I don't get out-smilied again,

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

"However, in order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers need to have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers to do so"

Sorry my friend. The above is just wrong regardless of the thread title and I have not been convinced otherwise.

 

[Wulf]

Fine. I was not as clear, or as specific as I should have been with that statement.

Let me rephrase it now, to clear up any potential confusion.

In order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers, who currently still make and sell knives in reasonable quantities, should have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers not to pre-sell their entire inventory.

Hopefully now you can stop dwelling on that one sentence and see the big picture.

 

[RWS]

"However, in order to preserve the integrity and purpose of a knife show, makers need to have knives available for sale to the showgoing public. It is their moral obligation to the show promoters, the customers, and their fellow makers to do so"

Sorry my friend. The above is just wrong regardless of the thread title and I have not been convinced otherwise.

I'm not going to try and put word's in Wulf's mouth but Wulf's statement can be revised by me a little for my argument as follows:

in order to preserve the integrity/quality and purpose of future knife shows, makers need to not pre-sell their knife show inventory to dealers which means they will have those knives for sale to the showgoing public. It is an implied obligation to those who wait for the doors to open and to not sell to those who go through the back door and cut in front of everyone else who is waiting in line at the front door.

Yes, I have been to shows where this happens and I own many custom knives.

EDITED TO ADD:
As I was writing this, Wulf was simultaneously writing his response above.

 

[Wulf]

RWS,
Thank you. That very accurately captures my meaning and intent.