A reality check for most makers

Les Robertson said:
Hi Kevin,

I never said that people would be stuck with them for eternity. They will just have a smaller section of the custom knife buying public that will be interested.

Im glad you are now clarifying your position on Giraffe bone. :D

The knife, because it is a Fisk, is older and the person who bought it probably got it right at $1,200 or less will be fine. The same probably could not be said of a maker not in the same position as Jerry.

Worse case scenario he can always send it back to Jerry to get it re-handled. :thumbup:

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrpreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Didn't fool you for a minute. I learned early on from my dad that one can't get up early enough to fool an ex-serviceman. :thumbup: ;)

It's a nice piece though with it's classic Fisk wolf's tooth damascus and I'm always partial to Senderos with escutcheons as they are rare.
 
B . Buxton said:
I have read the posts on this thread trying to keep up with its on goingness and have concluded 416, blued steel and damascus to be the more desirable for hardware used on higher end pieces, but what is acceptable for handle materials? Is it only ivory,mammoth, walrus, elephant, hippo. (questioning hippo) Any woods? what about stag, most stags I've seen with only a few exceptions wasn't worth carring home. What is looked upon as OK and pleasing and not shunned or avoided, of all the available materials.

Thanks

Bill
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Absolutely not. Premium wood is more than acceptable on a damascus piece. I could throw about 30 examples at you, but I won't. Sure, you have to consider the overall design of the knife, the way the pattern of the wood (if any) compliments (or doesn't) the damasacus pattern of the blade and fittings, and the overall price point. But there is no way that the ivories and stag are the "only" appropriate options for handle material on a damscus piece as a general rule.

Roger
 
Bill, I have noticed you don't use much stag, at least pieces I have seen of yours over the last few years.

I value good stag, (especially good amber stag) as acceptable and even preferred at any price point.

As Roger mentioned, wood (even the best examples) can be risky at the higher price points with the exception of the Loveless and Moran models and such.
 
I think giraffes are fascinating creatures! :)
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Hi Tai,

I think Human bones would be very cool on a knife! I suspect that this was done for a long time (especially with flintknapped blades).

Have you ever heard the story about how the Giraffe bone industry got started.

Seems that as the humans pushed into Africa they built roads with black tops.

Now Giraffe's have hooves which don't do well on the black tops. Consequently, they appear while crossing these black top roads, to look like a beginner on ice skates. Often times they fall. As you can imagine they would then have difficulty getting up.

This image was not wasted on the Lions. Who eventually learned to chase the Giraffes toward the black tops...with other Lions waiting on the other side.

How did that work out for the Giraffes who fell??? NOT TO GOOD!

After the Lions and all the other carnivores were done with the remains. The streets and sanitation trucks would come by an clean up the remains. Not knowing what to do with such a big carcass they took it to a meat processing plant!

Some smart African Entrepreneur sat down and said to himself "Now who would buy my road kill"?

Jigged bone came to mind (That got its start in and around the Chicago Slaughter Houses). Surely if Americans will use the shin bone of a cow...they will use the leg bones of the Exotic African Giraffe!

Ta Da...a Business was born.

This story (except for the Road Kill and jigged bone part) was told to me by Bruce Voyles. As he is a "Man in the KNOW" I took him at his word for it.

As the saying goes "One Man's Trash is another Man's handle material" or something like that...:D

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
I happen to very much like some Giraffe bone. Here is one example by Bob Crowder which was a replacement handle for a cracked Desert Ironwood.

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to me, this honey color is perfectly wonderful and I'd be surprised if someone that had not heard that GB was not desirable would not be as happy with this knife as I am.

here is a folder by Stan Fujisaka

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this piece was purchased a few years ago at BAKCA and I was talking to Jim Sornberger about his folders and looked over at Stan's table which was attached to Jims at 90 degrees and Phyllis was looking at this knife. The grin on her face and the look in her eye told me to go over and purchase this knife. Does it bother me that it has GB? Not in the slightest as every time I think about the knife or we look at it, I can see the look of pure joy on my wife's face when looking at the piece and as the Mastercard ads say -- "priceless"

Well over 10 years ago, at a CKG show, Brian Lyttle had this little knife made with Buffalo shin bone that Brian had on his farm. It was given to me as a birthday present. Am I pleased? I think so and I see no reason anyone else would not be equally pleased.

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Brian is a multi talented maker and I found the next knife in a small shop in Coombs, BC on Vancouver Island. Brian hunts and I'm not sure if this Elk was one he shot but it could very well be.

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From a Norwegian maker comes this little item with Italian Cow Bone (much more desirable and rare than North American Cows and is definitely a premium product)

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however, please preserve me from green canvas micarta, gray micarta and bead blasted blades.
 
Kevin, I would use more but I just don't have much luck finding pieces I like. The price doesn't bother me much unless its ridiculously high, but then in my opinion stag also needs to be stabilized. I've had to rework a couple knives with stag I've made because of shrinkage, I don't like that. I had a mastersmith tell me a few years ago to use over sized fitting when using stag so the stag slid inside the fitting like a pipe this way shrinkage wouldn't be a problem, but thats just not my cup of tea. I'm always on the look out for nice materials but lately I've become awfully fond of ivory and that will put a dent in your wallet in a hurry. :eek:

Send me stag if you need someone to store it for you, I have a great storage shed. :D

Mr. White those are some beautiful knives you have there.

Bill
 
B . Buxton said:
Kevin, I would use more but I just don't have much luck finding pieces I like. The price doesn't bother me much unless its ridiculously high, but then in my opinion stag also needs to be stabilized. I've had to rework a couple knives with stag I've made because of shrinkage, I don't like that. I had a mastersmith tell me a few years ago to use over sized fitting when using stag so the stag slid inside the fitting like a pipe this way shrinkage wouldn't be a problem, but thats just not my cup of tea. I'm always on the look out for nice materials but lately I've become awfully fond of ivory and that will put a dent in your wallet in a hurry. :eek:

Send me stag if you need someone to store it for you, I have a great storage shed. :D

Mr. White those are some beautiful knives you have there.

Bill
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Yes stag will shrink just like the other materials. I'm glad to say I haven't had trouble with shrinkage with my stag or ivory, guess the VA climate is just right and I'm careful too.
You use beautiful woods. The maple you made that set with was outstanding to say the least.

Ancient ivory has always fascinated me. To think of it's age and then the fact it was once part a living creature during that very early period. If only it could tell it's stories.
 
B . Buxton said:
Kevin, I would use more but I just don't have much luck finding pieces I like. The price doesn't bother me much unless its ridiculously high, but then in my opinion stag also needs to be stabilized. I've had to rework a couple knives with stag I've made because of shrinkage, I don't like that. I had a mastersmith tell me a few years ago to use over sized fitting when using stag so the stag slid inside the fitting like a pipe this way shrinkage wouldn't be a problem, but thats just not my cup of tea. I'm always on the look out for nice materials but lately I've become awfully fond of ivory and that will put a dent in your wallet in a hurry. :eek:

Send me stag if you need someone to store it for you, I have a great storage shed. :D

Mr. White those are some beautiful knives you have there.

Bill
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Bill,
How do you stabilize stag? I am curious
 
Bladeandbarrel, some say stabilizing won't do much for stag but I think otherwise, I send it to WSSI and have them run it through their process. I've never had any problems with any they've stabilized. I just need to find some good stuff to send. ;)

Bill
 
Les,

Regarding stabilized woods, I like anything that has some nice figure and that compliments the overall look of the knife. Spalted maple is good, but I like spalted sycamore even better, Some buckeye burl looks great, some doesn't. It depends on what I'm trying to say with the knife.

Some redwood burl is really nice, birdseye pine is a real surprise. If it's a damascus knife, I don't want the figure of the wood to clash with the pattern if the damascus. Rather, it should flow with the pattern, or even hogh;ight the pattern, rather than over power it.

My thoughts on it.

Gene
 
I sent some thin scales for a pistol/folder to Culpepper Co. for amber dyeing and they came back warped and cracked. I cant find another set so what material looks good on pistols? Ivory is my favorite but not on this particular gun as per buyers request. Any suggestions? How about wood with checkering? What do high-end pistols have on them? Anybody with suggestions?
 
This thread is starting to make a little more since. With others opinions being considered.

For the record. I do not take deposits. None! I reserve the right to sell to whom I wish. Period. When I receive advice that I see as self serving, I disregard it.
When a dealer demands a 20-25% discount. They are off the list. I DO NOT GIVE DISCOUNTS!

I have been making Knives for over 35 years now. I have made several thousand. They all sold, and sold quickly. I have none in stock for sale. All are pre- sold years in advance. Over 8 years in advance now. I make two distinct lines of Knives. Contrary to what has been said, I make Lovett designed Knives. And I make a Line of Loveless Designed Knives. You may not like it, but it's really none of your business why the Loveless Shop and the Lovett shop decided on this course. We had our reasons. And still do. It's our business and No One Else's! It is certainly not for the reason stated earlier in this thread. Both Lines are very popular. Though admittedly, the Loveless Connection Knives are Extremely Popular. More so than we ever imagined. (Seems a certain dealer said that they would never be overly popular). Guess even a self proclaimed expert can be wrong!

In 35 years of knife making I have had 2 knives returned for repair. A fact that I am very proud of.

Yes, Bob Loveless and Jim Merritt are good friends. Sorry this offends anyone! It isn't going to change. I know Les, that you don't like Bob or his knives. You have stated as much several times. Hell, we probably don't like you either. So be it. Get over it!

When some one rudely demands, In public, at a show, Where are my knives? For every one to hear. Knowing full well the family crisis we were going through. Well in my book, a person that would do that, Is no man. Just a Money Changer.

Call me a liar if you wish. Don't think I didn't check you out. And you business practices before actually doing business with you. I did, and I won't.

As to my grammar. You screwed up a few sentences up there. Left out a few key works. Sounded like broken English. "Pigeon" I believe it's called. True enough, I'm dyslexic. Guess you've got me on that one. So you win! It's a good day.

Now. Before all the wild carnival colors came along, every one seemed to like the exotic bones. But the wild colors killed it. But I still thin dark natural looking Bone can look very attractive.

Oh, by the way. They were jigging Cow bone in Germany a century before there was a Chicago. Sorry
 
jeeze after reading this thread i'm second guessing myself on getting into knife making (was going to start as a weekend smith honing skills, and work up from there)...kinda kill or be killed business? I know for a fact i aint and never will be a high roller collector, i love my fixed blades looking like they were made in the fur trader era, and i like my folders super simple and usuable. But when it comes to the actual market its more cut throat then the auto racing parts industry which i'm currently in (i'm a tradesmen machinist).

I will bite that my only influences to get into smithing/knife making were kevin cashen (whom told me NEVER sell a product until you are 100% certain it wont fail) and John Lundemo (who i nearly took a non-payed apprenticeship with and he gave alot of pointers on what not to do)...why those two out of the thousands of smiths? when i first made a few blades and asked for imput they were the only people to give me the time of day, respond to my emails and chatted with me via the phone/messages.

I wish i was stateside to goto a hammer in or something with these people.
 
Robert, if a person wants to make knives and has a strong passion to do so, these threads will not and should not effect their decision to do so.

I enjoy this forum but it has little effect on what I make. I make what I want to make :D
 
robert.b. if you have the desire to get into making knives i would go for it. there is a lot of pleasure in taking a flat piece of steel and making it into a useful tool or a work of art if thats your style. there will always be someone who likes your work and not some rich snob just out to make a buck on your labor. i have passed up plenty of sales to people like that only to find someone who will keep the knife and pass it on to a family member who will do the same. if you have any questions about making a knife feel free to contact me and i'll try to help you out.
 
Well, all I can say is from what I noticed so far is good information on this thread. But, no offense intended to anybody as this is just my opinion, but I personally don't agree with dealers getting profit off of knifemaker's work and reputation. They should actually work for that money instead of just buying quality knives then jacking up the prices and reselling. (Well, they work, but their profit still comes from other's work.)

Seems to be that too many people places emphassis on the after market. All they care about is reselling the knives for profit, which is getting profit off of somebody else's work. To me, a knife is worth what the maker prices it at..no more. And if all possible, once I ever start to actually sell knives, I'm going to try to avoid dealers all together. I'll expect my knives to be used, admired, and/or collected..not just to be resold to get profit off of my labor.
 
Hi Blade,

but I personally don't agree with dealers getting profit off of knifemaker's work and reputation. They should actually work for that money instead of just buying quality knives then jacking up the prices and reselling.
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Which dealer is it that is using threat of violence to get these makers to sell to dealers at a discount?

As you make it sound like the makers are some how coerced into selling to dealers.

Remember, no dealer can get a knife from a maker...until the maker decides to sell.

Why doesn't your favorite maker have knives on their tables when the shows open???

Because the Makers sell them...no one is threating them to do so. The sell to not only dealers, but good customers before, during and after the show at a discount. Why, because there is no guarantee that the knives will sell during the show.

Many makers who work with dealers view their discount to them as part or all of their advertising budget. This allows dealers to take their knives to shows that the maker can't attend, among other things a dealer can for a maker.

You seem to be under the impression that no matter what maker it is there is a market for their work. That is a "WRONG" Impression.

So you think if I start to work with a new maker they don't benefit from my position in the market?

How about the article I wrote on Sam Butler for Blade Magazine from which Sam received 40 + orders in 4 weeks...directly from the magazine article.

Do you conversely believe that Sam should send me a percentage of that money because of the work I did for Blade (2006)...after all he did nothing (Work) with regards to writing or publishing that article? Instead he benefited from my article (which I suggested to Blade).

If you go to my web site and check prices you will find 90%+ of the knives I sell are at the makers price.

No dealer forces a maker to sell knives to them. Makes you wonder why a maker would keep selling knives to a maker at a discount who then keeps "Jacking" up the prices when the dealer resells them.

In the future before you give your opinion, you may want to do some research By doing your homework your opinions will be more informed and eliminate the incorrect sweeping generalization that this one features.


Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
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