A reality check for most makers

les....just for the record my name is ryan hurley:thumbup:.....hope u get your answers.....ryan
 
Byron ,

when a dealer buys a knife from a maker and sells it at that makers asking price or slightly above , how could you have a problem with that ?

consider this...
Lets say you wanted a knife from maker X ( hypothetical name ) , and maker X doesn't take orders , but does do shows , lets say Blade for example. You decide to go to Blade in hopes to score on from him at his table. So you book the airfare , the hotel , rental car , etc , and lets just say you are out $1000 and the show isn't even open yet , well guess what , there are probably another 500-1000 people going for the same knife as you !!

So you may come away empty handed even after spending $1K , or you could have saved that $$ and waited for a dealer to post one , and if you act fast enough you could score it. If the knife was $800 at the show , and you buy it from a dealer for $1000 , you haven't lost anything ( well other than chillin with all the fine folks at the show ) and you now have your knife !

Some dealers may have knives on their site that they bought in a lottery for $700 and have them for sale for $2000 , but that is what the market will bear on the secondary. A knife a dealer acquires from a lottery , is no different than a collector scoring it in the lottery. Do the secondary mark up's suck ? Sure do if you don't have the money , but its simple supply and demand.

Someone always benefits from someone else's labor. As a youth , you benefit from your parents labor , as they pay the bills and buy the food. As you venture out onto your own and work for someone else , as Les said , along comes FICA and all his friends , and you now give them part of your money , that you earned.

Your boss profits from your labor , if he doesn't , his business will not thrive , or your job will not be secure.

Just the way it works.... as the song says " What a drag it is getting old... ".
 
Profit off of labor, and the profit of the selling of goods is the way the world economy works and survives!. Each and every time you go the the store and buy anything. Any thing at all, profit is make from someones labor. The company making the product makes a profit from the labor of its employee's. The wholesaler or distributer makes a profit from the labor of said company. The retail outlet makes a profit. There is very little that can be purchased that doesn't make a profit ,and many times over in some cases, if not most, on the labor of the workers.
Even if you work for your self. You, your wife, and children profit from your labors. We Hope! And when all is said and done. Here comes Uncle Sam and he profits again.

Unless you follow the advice of one poster above and do not charge for your labor! I wonder if he thinks this Idea will catch on. Like in all the knife makers. sending him free knives. That is the only way he will ever be able to afford a Hand Made Knife or anything else, as apparently he feel no one has the right to earn money from their toil. So I can only assume that he is now, or will in the future work from daylight to dark for some one for free. Or may be he is planning a life on welfare. But wouldn't he then be living on the taxes paid by PAID hard working Citizens working for profit.

One last thing. Dealers EARN their money. Make no mistake about it. They have done a lot of the industry. The percentage they charge most makers is well earned. Especially new makers. The only reason that I don't give a discount is that Lovett Knives bring a much higher price in the aftermarket that I charge. A dealer can make much more that any normal discount on a Loveless Connection Knife in particular. If the Discount was given as well, the dealer would be making more on many of the models than the maker. In this case. That is a little too much.

Mike
 
And Byron, when you get older, having saved some $ and invest in the markets via individual stocks, mutual funds, bonds etc you hopefully with either your own acumen or the assistance of a financial advisor will be able to retire and earn interest, dividends and capital gains from the work done by others using the capital you are providing for investment. I have no idea upon who or how many backs of others that I'm making my current living but it does allow me to make some significant purchases of custom knives from either makers, dealers or other collectors and if collectors did not do so, knife making would cease to exist.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Robert, if a person wants to make knives and has a strong passion to do so, these threads will not and should not effect their decision to do so.

I enjoy this forum but it has little effect on what I make. I make what I want to make :D
Click to expand...

Thanks alot for the kind words, I love making blades but yeah i guess reading the buisness side of things is a little daunting even though i know i have the fundemental skills to make some nice pieces...I will continue to have a fulltime job until such time as i'm confident i can get perfect heat treats each time, at the moment i'm still learning alot and i'm a bit hit and miss even after taking metallurgy at college in my apprenticeship.

richard j said:
robert.b. if you have the desire to get into making knives i would go for it. there is a lot of pleasure in taking a flat piece of steel and making it into a useful tool or a work of art if thats your style. there will always be someone who likes your work and not some rich snob just out to make a buck on your labor. i have passed up plenty of sales to people like that only to find someone who will keep the knife and pass it on to a family member who will do the same. if you have any questions about making a knife feel free to contact me and i'll try to help you out.
Click to expand...

I know the feeling with taking a blank of steel, its something i feel like i'd actually be content doing for the years to come and hopefully once i'm in Arkansas that will become more of a reality. Thanks so much for the offer, once i finish building my new propane forge i'll be sure to take you up on that if i hit another brick wall as i sometimes do. :p

good to know that knifemaking doesnt have to be as doomsday as some of the collectors make it...
 
Perhaps Byron wonders why a maker purchases raw materials, equipment, utilizes time, skills developed through training, pays for web space and professional photography, booth fees, travel expenses, storage and utilities, etc, decides on a price, and sells to a dealer.

The dealer pays for web space, photography, storage, show expenses, and charges a higher price. If a dealer could provide what the difference in margins is for their work and that of the maker, it may help him understand. And there are most assuredly makers who do not maintain web sites, advertise in knife rags, or maybe d enough shows.

I'm not sure why companies profiting fro employee labor was used as example. That is not the relationship-makers do not generally work for dealers. Markup in the supply chain seems to be what it is.

I wouldn't pay for free advertising...
 
How about the article I wrote on Sam Butler for Blade Magazine from which Sam received 40 + orders in 4 weeks...directly from the magazine article.

Do you conversely believe that Sam should send me a percentage of that money because of the work I did for Blade (2006)...after all he did nothing (Work) with regards to writing or publishing that article? Instead he benefited from my article (which I suggested to Blade).
Click to expand...
That is the exact reason I won't subscribe to Blade
Have you written anything that has NEGATIVELY affected sales of a knife??


Regarding the humorous debate on giraffe bone===>
I hate to say it but it goes back to product differentiation
I think the reason someone buys a giraffe bone handled knife is so he can show his friends HIS giraffe bone handled knife that his neighbor DOESN'T have
Plus it sounds good in the ad
One more feature to separate it from the rest
180 layer Damascus steel with mustard patina, titanium pins, meteorite bolsters, and a Turkish clip main blade buffed with Italian chamois cloth....
Ever notice when you go to an expensive restaurant the menu items are always like:
Napa Valley grass fed grade AA Top Choice filet mignon in a Canadian mushroom sauce, San Fransisco sourdough garlic bread with Wisconsin butter and buffalo mozzarella , salad with roasted New Mexico pinion nuts and Gilroy garlic cloves, and a desert===>
made from a blend of 28 cocoas from all around the world and is infused with five grams of edible 23-karat gold and served in a goblet lined with edible gold. It is topped with whipped cream, more gold and a side of La Madeline au Truffle from Knipschildt Chocolatier, which sells for $2,600 a pound
Just give me a darn steak with some A1 Sauce and a salad with ranch dressing for cying out loud!!!
 
bladefulart, i couldnt agree with you more on what you said. i had a dealer tell me that he would take every knife i made if i let him have it at a discount. i simply asked who the f**** are you to me?, nobody, so why should i let you make money off my labor? after reading over a few of the posts in this thread i tend to agree with metalbender2. this thread is trollish plain and simple.
 
Trent Rock said:
That is the exact reason I won't subscribe to Blade
Have you written anything that has NEGATIVELY affected sales of a knife??


Regarding the humorous debate on giraffe bone===>
I hate to say it but it goes back to product differentiation
I think the reason someone buys a giraffe bone handled knife is so he can show his friends HIS giraffe bone handled knife that his neighbor DOESN'T have
Plus it sounds good in the ad
One more feature to separate it from the rest
180 layer Damascus steel with mustard patina, titanium pins, meteorite bolsters, and a Turkish clip main blade buffed with Italian chamois cloth....
Ever notice when you go to an expensive restaurant the menu items are always like:
Napa Valley grass fed grade AA Top Choice filet mignon in a Canadian mushroom sauce, San Fransisco sourdough garlic bread with Wisconsin butter and buffalo mozzarella , salad with roasted New Mexico pinion nuts and Gilroy garlic cloves, and a desert===>
made from a blend of 28 cocoas from all around the world and is infused with five grams of edible 23-karat gold and served in a goblet lined with edible gold. It is topped with whipped cream, more gold and a side of La Madeline au Truffle from Knipschildt Chocolatier, which sells for $2,600 a pound
Just give me a darn steak with some A1 Sauce and a salad with ranch dressing for cying out loud!!!
Click to expand...
Trent,
Why are you trolling in Customs now? :confused:

Doug
 
Hi Trent,

That is the exact reason I won't subscribe to Blade
Have you written anything that has NEGATIVELY affected sales of a knife??
Click to expand...

If you are a knife maker, forward me some information about yourself and some professional photos.

I can guarantee you I would write an article that would have a negative impact on your knives.

You have to admit that the item in quotes above is not the smartest thing ever said.

First, I don't work with makers who I don't feel their knives and pricing would not be competitive in whatever market they compete in.

Second, only a moron would right negative things about someone they are in a professional relationship with.

As for all the fancy foods...if you don't like the food, don't like the decor and/or the pricing...don't eat there.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Les Robertson said:
Second, only a moron would right negative things about someone they are in a professional relationship with.
Click to expand...

What about those who are not in a professional relationship with you? :D You're a smart guy and a good businessman, but the #1 rule is to make yourself money. That's not to say you don't offer a valuable service or give good advice, but that has to be taken into account. Just my 1 cent...
 
richard j said:
bladefulart, i couldnt agree with you more on what you said. i had a dealer tell me that he would take every knife i made if i let him have it at a discount. i simply asked who the f**** are you to me?, nobody, so why should i let you make money off my labor? after reading over a few of the posts in this thread i tend to agree with metalbender2. this thread is trollish plain and simple.
Click to expand...

Richard (and bladefulart), the discount is how the dealers make their living. It's the same way in all areas of commerce. The groceries (and other stuff) you get at Wally World, for instance. The people who grow and manufacture that stuff sell it to Walmart for less than walmart sells it to you. That's how walmart makes a profit and stays in business. Same applies to every thing else sold in retail stores. You can buy stuff directly from the manufacturer sometimes, but chances are you'll pay the same amount. Les charges the same for the knives I sell him as the ones I sell directly to customers. (Usually ;) )
What you get in return for the discount is more exposure. I don't go to very many shows, and I don't write articles about myself to put in magazines. Which then, theoretically, increases sales.

Did I get all that right, or did I hold my head too close to the forge this morning? :D
 
richard j said:
bladefulart, i couldnt agree with you more on what you said. i had a dealer tell me that he would take every knife i made if i let him have it at a discount. i simply asked who the f**** are you to me?, nobody, so why should i let you make money off my labor?
Click to expand...

not that I have ever sold my knives to a dealer for resell , as I am just a hobbyist who is working to get better , but I am studying the business aspect of it as much as I am the craft itself.

A dealer , the right dealer , can get you exposure that you otherwise might not be able to get. Some call it hype , some call it exposure , some call it advertising , whatever it is , its getting your product in front of more people than you yourself could.

Now an established maker , may or may not need to sell to a dealer , as once the maker is established and has a following or positive reputation , he may be able to thrive on his own , even then selling to a dealer at a discount appears to me that the amount of the discount given would be returned at least 2 times over in advertising and promotion.

I guess what it comes down to is this : to you - is the discount price worth the amount of promotion and exposure you will get ?

Additionally , some makers I have talked to have also informed me , a dealer can help you thru times when you dont have orders to fill , or a new design to showcase.

just my thoughts...
 
i dont mind selling to anyone thats going to use a knife that i make. thats why i make them, to be used. i dont intend my knives to be bought and sold to whoever. i sold the bowie that put 10 stitches in my right hand with the understanding that the knife would never be sold and if he needed to sell it the knife would come back to me. it was sold but not to me which didnt go over too well with me. each knife i make becomes a part of me which some people just might not be able to understand until they actually try to make a knife. if they think its so easy, why dont they start making knives? this thread just rubbed me the wrong way and it almost had a negative effect on robert b. and his decision to get into making knives.
 
Hi Jose,

I have written articles for Blade about makers who I have never had one of their knives or have just owned a few.

I have been interviewed by Blade, KI and Tactical Knives and have given positive statements about several makers who I do not have a "professional" relationship with.

Yes, it is about making money. Which does seem to be a sticking point with some who post on this forum.

My example about Sam Butler, yes I have made money with the sale of Sam's knives. Note, the 40 orders he received from my article...I received not one cent from Sam...nor did I expect it. Any discount Sam has ever given me was more than recouped with the orders that came from the article I wrote.

This is merely a guess, I would estimate that 75% of the makers out there are not in a "professional" relationship with 1 or more makers.

So for those makers who don't want to work with dealers. Let them know that and they will be more than happy to take their money elsewhere.

It is truly up to the maker if they want to work with a dealer or not.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
If you are a maker and are trying to develop a network of customers, one way to do that is by advertising. Another way is by doing 2X or 3X as many knife shows as other makers. A third way is by promoting your knives on the internet. There are several other ways. One of those is to have a dealer do part of that work for you.

Now, dealers make money by charging more to customers than what they paid originally. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, suppose you are the maker of a $1,000 bowie. There's a dealer who feels comfortable he will be able to sell that bowie to people you otherwise wouldn't have access to, for example because you don't have the time or inclination to do as many shows or maintain a retail site.

Now suppose you make say 25 of those knives each year (they don't have to be the same, just + or - the same price / amount of work). To sell them you go to 6 shows a year. Now suppose a dealer tells you that he will buy and sell 5 of those as long as you accept to sell them at 20% off, i.e., $800.

In exchange for that, the dealer will take pro level photos, put the knives up for sale on his website with an audience of tens of thousands confirmed knife buyers, feature your knives in his quarterly email, and take and show your knives to 6 shows. You ask which shows the dealer goes to, and you see that you have 3 shows in common. Now you can decide simply not to go to those shows and spend the time and $$$ thus saved on equipment or making new knives and raising your production, or you can decide to still go to the show but make different stuff (and send the customer who want a bowie to the dealer).

Suppose that it costs you $900 to make each knife. If you look at each knives you sold to the dealer as a standalone, it looks like you lost $100 each, so $500 for each.

However, in the meantime you were able to save the money you would have otherwise spent going at 3 shows ($1,000 or more, right?), you got more time to make more knives so you caught up on your delivery list (more satisfied customers, improved reputation) and got more income, and you got exposure to thousands of potential customers, some of whom will contact you becuase they liked the piece the dealer had but they would like something somewhat different, etc... You don't have to maintain a full fledge retail website, and you may also choose to spend less money on traditional marketing.

The dealer might also help you figure out some things you need to work on or what customers really like about your work, and what are the hot designs and materials. They might write a magazine article mentionning your work.

Now, there are cases where this might not be useful to a specific maker, for example, someone who works part time for their own satisfaction and is not trying to grow the business. Someone for whom the social aspect of going to shows, etc, is more important than the return on investment they make.

In any case, the way to look at dealers' discounts is to consider them part of your marketing budget. If you are planning to spend $10,000 on marketing a year (including advertising, show expenses, quality photography, website, etc, etc), then you may choose to add the discount to dealers to that equation. Maybe you spend $1,000 of those $10,000 on dealer discount, and instead decide to spend $1,000 less on shows and advertising.
 
Hi Richard j.

One of the concepts of sales that you haven't seemed to have grasped yet is:

Once you have been paid for your knife.....you no longer own it. If the new owner wants to paint it pink, skip it up and down the street or sell it for double what they paid or it. It is their prerogative to do whatever they would like with it.

Why? Because the knife is no longer yours. It belongs to the person who paid you for it.

So your business plan is to:

1) Not sell to dealers at a discount. Because you don't sell your knives to those who make their living off of other peoples labor.

2) Not sell to a dealer at full price, and then have them sell it. Whether it was for the same money as you charge or for a profit Why...because they sold it.

3) Not sell to a collector who may after a period of time may sell the knife. This would bother you because they sold their knife...without checking with
you.

So basically you will only sell your knives to people who are going to use them and never sell them. I believe you will find that to be a very very small market.

Oh, if the sell the knife back to you do you pay full price for the knife?

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Hi Joss,

I see you have been paying attention to my posts. :D

You made an excellent point about the "hobby" maker. My services and your post are really geared towards those makers who are trying to make money at the sale of their knives.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
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