A Simple Statement

Status
Not open for further replies.
tag for the update from CRK. I can't wait to see the video where they explain it. I'll with hold my comments until then.
 
Never realized benchmades warranty states original owner only. This is something they absolutely do not enforce. If they make it they'll fix it. And for me they've always gone above and beyond
 
sh00ter01 said:
I somehow doubt that closing the knife is the major culprit to everyone's lock face woes. Unless you're the hulk and have an incredibly strong index finger, I can't see people putting enough pressure on the back of the blade to cause much if any deformation on the lock face.

-sh00ter
Click to expand...

Maybe, but the first thing noted by most guys with deformation is the flaking which most people say is the hardened outermost layer being removed. If that is the case, then you are down to softer Ti, and that may be very easy to deform. So, knives that do not flake may never have any deformation and knives that do might get deformation because their outer protection layer is defective and gone. Most of what I said is complete speculation and common sense guessing, and would require a metallurgic study, but seems plausible at least. Like I said earlier, in general a friction joint between a hardened SS and Ti albeit hardened is not a good idea on paper. Obviously it can be done but seems to be tricky, with the steel inserts, and special hardening techniques from various makers. It would be nice to have a custom maker chime in on how they heat treat their Ti lockbars, and the geometry they use.

This article, http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Case-hardening-titanium/WO2003074752.html seems to have some interesting info for any geeks wanting to read some metallurgy. I have not read it all yet but skimmed it.
 
nccole said:
Maybe, but the first thing noted by most guys with deformation is the flaking which most people say is the hardened outermost layer being removed. If that is the case, then you are down to softer Ti, and that may be very easy to deform. So, knives that do not flake may never have any deformation and knives that do might get deformation because their outer protection layer is defective and gone. Most of what I said is complete speculation and common sense guessing, and would require a metallurgic study, but seems plausible at least. Like I said earlier, in general a friction joint between a hardened SS and Ti albeit hardened is not a good idea on paper. Obviously it can be done but seems to be tricky, with the steel inserts, and special hardening techniques from various makers. It would be nice to have a custom maker chime in on how they heat treat their Ti lockbars, and the geometry they use...
Click to expand...

I don't know, even unhardened/treat Ti is around 40 Rc I believe. Standard one handed closing, which I assume most people do, involves pushing the lock bar aside and then using their index finger on the spine of the blade to apply pressure till at least partially closed (past the lock face at least). While exposed Ti is softer I doubt the force you exert with your index finger would be enough to cause deformation. Now if people are closing using both hand and forcing it yes maybe some damage, but like I said, I just can't see anyone deforming it with the pressure from just their index finger.

-sh00ter
 
Would like to say that I too recently had a minor customer service issue with a Sebenza 21 and I contacted CRK. They were a pleasure to deal with! Friendly, courteous and extremely professional. If anything, they further convinced me that they are a truly superior company and a customer service dept. second to none.

Thanks go to crk for all they do!
 
I wondered the same thing earlier today sh00ter. I'm sure Chris & crew are busy gearing up for BLADE and filling orders. We might have to wait awhile. I'm intrigued with the knowing the results of his testing.
 
cziv said:
I wondered the same thing earlier today sh00ter. I'm sure Chris & crew are busy gearing up for BLADE and filling orders. We might have to wait awhile. I'm intrigued with the knowing the results of his testing.
Click to expand...

Whoops, forgot about blade:D

Yeah we might have to wait till after. I'll bump it again later if it gets forgotten.

-sh00ter
 
i wasnt even aware of this thread!

kudos to Chris for doing these tests; I look forward to seeing the next installment.
 
I started my knife obsession with Spyderco. Then I bought a Sebenza and it completely changed my perception of what a quality product can be. Since then I have purchased a couple of other highly popular and very highly priced production knives and I have been disappointed in their quality. They might be tough and cool looking but there is definitely a level of quality in your knives that clearly stands above. I may only be able to buy CRK knives now... Thank you for your unbending dedication to your craft.
 
sh00ter01 said:
I don't know, even unhardened/treat Ti is around 40 Rc I believe. Standard one handed closing, which I assume most people do, involves pushing the lock bar aside and then using their index finger on the spine of the blade to apply pressure till at least partially closed (past the lock face at least). While exposed Ti is softer I doubt the force you exert with your index finger would be enough to cause deformation. Now if people are closing using both hand and forcing it yes maybe some damage, but like I said, I just can't see anyone deforming it with the pressure from just their index finger.

-sh00ter
Click to expand...


I don't think anyone's saying that some Lou Ferrigno type is gouging a titanium lock bar with the strength of their index finger but repeated rubbing of a steel tang with a titanium lock is eventually going to wear down the lock bar. Certainly rubbing them together every time you close the knife is going to wear it faster than not rubbing them every time you close the knife. I couldn't say whether or not this is whats causing all the problems but i'd bet it's part of it.
 
fatherhudson said:
I don't think anyone's saying that some Lou Ferrigno type is gouging a titanium lock bar with the strength of their index finger but repeated rubbing of a steel tang with a titanium lock is eventually going to wear down the lock bar. Certainly rubbing them together every time you close the knife is going to wear it faster than not rubbing them every time you close the knife. I couldn't say whether or not this is whats causing all the problems but i'd bet it's part of it.
Click to expand...

It's possible, but I just don't see it being a major factor in wear on the lock face, or cause any real form of deformation. Plus, I'd imagine it take a fair amount of time just to wear through the heat treat to even get to the exposed Ti.

-sh00ter
 
sh00ter01 said:
It's possible, but I just don't see it being a major factor in wear on the lock face, or cause any real form of deformation. Plus, I'd imagine it take a fair amount of time just to wear through the heat treat to even get to the exposed Ti.

-sh00ter
Click to expand...

The oxide layer from the heat applied to the lock face is <= .1 mm thick I believe. Possible thickness depends on the composition of the titanium, but I've seen 30 to 100 micrometers as possible thickness across compositions.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I didn't know there were people who didn't....


I don't do it because I'm worried about wear. I do it because I hate the noise the blade tang makes as you scrape it across the lock bar.
Click to expand...

As a lefty, I find myself doing it on my ZT560 and BM 760 from time to time. It takes more conscious effort, not as easy as moving an Emerson or Spyderco Military liner lock.
 
cziv said:
I'm sure Chris & crew are busy gearing up for BLADE and filling orders. We might have to wait awhile. I'm intrigued with the knowing the results of his testing.
Click to expand...

Correct. I don't think some realize how much is involved in getting ready for the biggest knife show on earth. It's also a long tough weekend, and then the trip home.
It takes most of the smaller/medium companies another few weeks to catch up to speed.

I feel he will get back to THIS thread in due time. I'm patient, and hope most can be.
 
I think CRK is really missing the point with all of this. They have gotten themselves into a situation where they as a company are arguing with their customers, and this isn't the first time I have seen it from them. Last year it was the issue of the heat treat on the blade steel where they cut however many feet of extension cord and could still shave hair.

They could have used this opportunity to provide EXCELLENT customer service and just replaced or repaired these few issues from the start and we wouldn't be here arguing on the internet. Instead we would have members coming here and extolling the wonderful virtues of the CRK warranty which would inspire trust in the brand. Now we have users arguing with each other about an issue that is perceived as real. Doesn't matter if it's real or not, perception is reality. When a potential new customer is researching spending $350+ on a knife they will come across these rumored problems and make a decision on whether they will buy a knife from CRK.

I think this comes down to CRK being a small company that holds the product they hand make with love in the highest regard. There are many advantages in a company of this size. There are lots of qualities that we love about small, hometown USA made products. There are also some disadvantages. Since this is a labor of love for them, they are too close to the issue. Complaints are taken very personally and you become very defensive.

But this is a business for them, not a hobby. As a business owner and manager you have to make impersonal decisions at times. Warranty/Returns are one of those areas. You protect your good name and reputation by responding quickly to customer service issues. You don't argue with the customer when they return an item for repair or replacement when you suspect their might be abuse. This is a retail business. Have you ever been to a place you consider a "good" retail establishment and seen someone at the returns desk arguing with a customer over a defective/damaged product? They might be arguing over whether they have a receipt or not but the cashier at Target isn't arguing over WHY they are returning an item. They aren't arguing because it goes against every ethos of good customer service.

So you might be thinking "yeah but that will result in additional costs to the company" and you are completely correct. It is the cost of doing business. All good businesses plan and prepare for this. Target, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, they all budget for fraudulent returns, shoplifters, warranty costs. It's worked into the price of everything you buy. But you know what, those costs bring in more customers, and hence, more money.

What is the cost of a few (or a lot) of Ti lock scales? How many potential customers don't buy a CRK because they are "rumored" to have lock bar issues, or heat treat issues, or "flicking" issues.

And while hitting on "flicking" issues... Why is it that every other major knife maker out there responds to flicking questions with "heck yeah, flick all you want, it's your knife and we stand behind it" and CRK says "don't flick your knife, that's abuse!"?

It all comes down to this very simple concept:

Stand behind your product.... period.

I know. I know, easier said than done, but it must be done to drive future sales, rather than driving away potential customers.
 
Zatx said:
I think CRK is really missing the point with all of this. They have gotten themselves into a situation where they as a company are arguing with their customers, and this isn't the first time I have seen it from them. Last year it was the issue of the heat treat on the blade steel where they cut however many feet of extension cord and could still shave hair.

They could have used this opportunity to provide EXCELLENT customer service and just replaced or repaired these few issues from the start and we wouldn't be here arguing on the internet. Instead we would have members coming here and extolling the wonderful virtues of the CRK warranty which would inspire trust in the brand. Now we have users arguing with each other about an issue that is perceived as real. Doesn't matter if it's real or not, perception is reality. When a potential new customer is researching spending $350+ on a knife they will come across these rumored problems and make a decision on whether they will buy a knife from CRK.

I think this comes down to CRK being a small company that holds the product they hand make with love in the highest regard. There are many advantages in a company of this size. There are lots of qualities that we love about small, hometown USA made products. There are also some disadvantages. Since this is a labor of love for them, they are too close to the issue. Complaints are taken very personally and you become very defensive.

But this is a business for them, not a hobby. As a business owner and manager you have to make impersonal decisions at times. Warranty/Returns are one of those areas. You protect your good name and reputation by responding quickly to customer service issues. You don't argue with the customer when they return an item for repair or replacement when you suspect their might be abuse. This is a retail business. Have you ever been to a place you consider a "good" retail establishment and seen someone at the returns desk arguing with a customer over a defective/damaged product? They might be arguing over whether they have a receipt or not but the cashier at Target isn't arguing over WHY they are returning an item. They aren't arguing because it goes against every ethos of good customer service.

So you might be thinking "yeah but that will result in additional costs to the company" and you are completely correct. It is the cost of doing business. All good businesses plan and prepare for this. Target, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, they all budget for fraudulent returns, shoplifters, warranty costs. It's worked into the price of everything you buy. But you know what, those costs bring in more customers, and hence, more money.

What is the cost of a few (or a lot) of Ti lock scales? How many potential customers don't buy a CRK because they are "rumored" to have lock bar issues, or heat treat issues, or "flicking" issues.

And while hitting on "flicking" issues... Why is it that every other major knife maker out there responds to flicking questions with "heck yeah, flick all you want, it's your knife and we stand behind it" and CRK says "don't flick your knife, that's abuse!"?

It all comes down to this very simple concept:

Stand behind your product.... period.

I know. I know, easier said than done, but it must be done to drive future sales, rather than driving away potential customers.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: +1

I have had a few people contact me who are looking into getting sebenzas, and although I respond that they should experience one and make there own decisions, I also warn them that if they get a lemon Chris will NOT stand behind it and will blatenly call you a lier to your face.

Most of the people emailing me respond that they will buy one when these issues are fixed and they'll see how Chris handles my situation.

I Reply "then move on because Chris is stubborn and stuck in his ways".... To Chris there is no problems in his manufacturing process, there is just "idiotic" customers who abuse there knife. (And yes I quoted idiotic because this is one of the numerous names I was called on the phone.)

Anyways, these threads on BF are making a difference in his sales one at a time. There have been 3 people contact me and Ive calculated the sales to well over a grand lost by Chris. It is very unfortunate that it comes down to this and if he just manned up and honored the warranty then there wouldn't be issues with customer service and more people would buy his knives.
 
The agenda a few have against Chris needs to stop. If this room had outside Mod's this would not be going on. Threads would be locked quickly.

If he doesn't talk to you on the phone as nice as you would like, don't start your agenda against him. If you have a problem with anything he has to say, tell him right THEN like a man, but don't go on for months whining about CRK on BF every chance you get. It's getting very old, and you are not hurting his business as much as you think you are. You are only making yourself look like trolls.

If you get your feelings hurt that easy there are owners out there that will coddle you for your dollars. May be time for some of you to move along.
 
Ken44 said:
The agenda a few have against Chris needs to stop. If this room had outside Mod's this would not be going on. Threads would be locked quickly.

If he doesn't talk to you on the phone as nice as you would like, don't start your agenda against him. If you have a problem with anything he has to say, tell him right THEN like a man, but don't go on for months whining about CRK on BF every chance you get. It's getting very old, and you are not hurting his business as much as you think you are. You are only making yourself look like trolls.

If you get your feelings hurt that easy there are owners out there that will coddle you for your dollars. May be time for some of you to move along.
Click to expand...

lets keep this knife related. I love how the topic has quickly moved to an attacked on me again. I have no agenda against him. He has created one against himself. I have talked on the phone with him, but he is so ignorant that he does not let you talk.

You seem to have a side agenda trying to get me to shut up, and not voice a complaint. This discussion isn't old in fact its an on going QC control issue Chris needs to address.

The only people who are getting tired of me posting are Fan boys. Believe me I used to be one too, but quickly changed when Mr. Reeve acted like a child on the phone.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top