A Simple Statement

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I wonder how Chris hardens the lock face. R. Hinderer uses a thing called a carbidizer. I contacted him about flipping it hard and he said "hell yes flip the hell out of that thing."

Apologies for bringing another maker and style of knife into things. It only comes from wondering why one can be flipped open "with authority" and show zero wear after years and another kind which is also hardened can't?? :confused:
 
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wolf5391 said:
All in all I have seen multiple people come to light about these issues and there is obviously something wrong.

The company will accusse me of abuse? so be it, and I wont purchase any more of there products. More sebenzas to buy for you guys :rolleyes:

This is my final post in this thread, I have tried to drill a point that cannot be understood by many people. Anything can be a "dud"/ "lemon" and thats why theres a warranty department. If the warranty doesnt honor legitamite wear from use and not abused then what good is it? In the end I have learned My lesson and unfortunately have learned not to trust crks warranty or employees.

Good day to everyone, and have a nice day :)
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I am reserving judgement until the "other shoe drops" here, but I kind of get the feeling that if your CRK knife develops blade play you are to blame, or at best it's normal wear not covered under warranty.
If that is not the case I am curious as to what (if anything) can cause "lock rock" that is covered under the warranty.

It begs the question, is any Ti framelock eventually going to get deformed from contacting hardened steel resulting in "lock rock"?
 
I wonder if anyone has any other examples of other Ti R.I.L. showing the same wear. I know my Sage 2 does not have anything going on like this, but that is my only Ti R.I.L. I just cannot see these issues as being something other than a defect. I would bet a lot of money guys are harder on almost all of their knives than they are on CRK's. We are all knife guys here, how many of us do/would abuse a $400 knife? And only knife guys like us typically spend $400 on a knife. I am sure CRK can show some un-refutable evidence of abuse, but most of CRK owners would never abuse their knife (hell, I somewhat baby my Sage 2).

Edit: I was still writing when the above post posed the same question, but feel it is a very good point.
 
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nccole said:
I wonder if anyone has any other examples of other Ti R.I.L. showing the same wear. I know my Sage 2 does not have anything going on like this, but that is my only Ti R.I.L. I just cannot see these issues as being something other than a defect. I would bet a lot of money guys are harder on almost all of their knives than they are on CRK's. We are all knife guys here, how many of us do/would abuse a $400 knife? And only knife guys like us typically spend $400 on a knife. I am sure CRK can show some un-refutable evidence of abuse, but most of CRK owners would never abuse their knife (hell, I somewhat baby my Sage 2).
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I believe this is the thread where CRK said to stand by for the update to the problem right? I'm waiting - patiently I might add. I believe Mr. Reeve will figure it out and get back to us when he's ready to.
 
DrFish said:
Flaking to me sounds like an eggshell effect. If you have a hard outer layer and a hardened surface, sufficient force can deform the soft underlayer enough to allow the hardened surface to crack.
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Good point. I suspect this happens.
 
cziv said:
I believe this is the thread where CRK said to stand by for the update to the problem right? I'm waiting - patiently I might add. I believe Mr. Reeve will figure it out and get back to us when he's ready to.
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We are all waiting, that does not mean meaningful discussion cannot be had. I really doubt he is going to look at any other brand of Ti R.I.L. I was just curious if anyone had any pictures of another Ti R.I.L. from another company showing similar wear. I think this could be a valuable piece of information.

Plus, I do not think he is the end-all be-all and you should just take what he says and put it in stone, a very reputable voice with many many years of experience and innovation, but the ultimate say. It sounds to me like the guys on here have some really good hypotheses that are totally plausible to what is going on.

Frankly, if he really did talk to Wolf like Wolf says he did, and is keeping tabs on BF members and matching BF members up to their knives when sent in, and his employees are messing with BF members' for sale threads, and from many accounts appears to defend his product at all costs whether logical or not, how much emphasis should we place on his findings? It sounds similar to a parent who defends his child at all cost. I do commend him and his company for taking this head on and trying to figure out what is going on. Again, I am waiting and hoping for an un-biased report, and hopefully a finding with a good conclusion and plan going forward. I do not personally know the man and am not passing judgement on him but keeping all ears open to good and bad, and analyzing what is presented to me.
 
I agree, discussion is great. How about some pics that don't show it? :D

I wonder what those Ti Militarys look like before Spyderco decided to put the steel insert on the lock?
 
cziv said:
I agree, discussion is great. How about some pics that don't show it? :D

I wonder what those Ti Militarys look like before Spyderco decided to put the steel insert on the lock?
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I have one sitting here. Lock face has noticeable deformation, and this is a "new" knife from the knife store. It's here for modification.
 
I ran out of memory on my phone but hopefully you get the idea. The "gouges" on both my are very small, but there is definitely deformation there. Doesn't affect lockup in my case though. The marks on the lockface are exactly where the blade tang comes into contact with the lockbar when the lockbar is not moved all the way out of the way.

[video=youtube;F2V-NS2tHSk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2V-NS2tHSk[/video]
 
IIRC, when the original Military RIL came out, there were numerous reports of accelerated wear on the lockbar face that affected lockup (again, that's IIRC). Many here probably know that the design was changed to incorporate a steel insert in the lockbar. This brings me to the question whether, or I guess an unscientific hunch that, wear on a titanium lockbar face probably depends a lot on knife-specific variables like the relative angles of the lockbar and tang surfaces, the exact amount of surface contact (many are a lot less than 100%) between the lockbar and the tang, etc. Where I'm going with that is a hunch that you probably can't compare (for example) a Sebenza anda Hinderer. I could definitely be wrong...where is Chris Reeve, or STR... ;)

nccole said:
I wonder if anyone has any other examples of other Ti R.I.L. showing the same wear. I know my Sage 2 does not have anything going on like this, but that is my only Ti R.I.L. I just cannot see these issues as being something other than a defect. I would bet a lot of money guys are harder on almost all of their knives than they are on CRK's. We are all knife guys here, how many of us do/would abuse a $400 knife? And only knife guys like us typically spend $400 on a knife. I am sure CRK can show some un-refutable evidence of abuse, but most of CRK owners would never abuse their knife (hell, I somewhat baby my Sage 2).

Edit: I was still writing when the above post posed the same question, but feel it is a very good point.
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JNewell said:
IIRC, when the original Military RIL came out, there were numerous reports of accelerated wear on the lockbar face that affected lockup (again, that's IIRC). Many here probably know that the design was changed to incorporate a steel insert in the lockbar. This brings me to the question whether, or I guess an unscientific hunch that, wear on a titanium lockbar face probably depends a lot on knife-specific variables like the relative angles of the lockbar and tang surfaces, the exact amount of surface contact (many are a lot less than 100%) between the lockbar and the tang, etc. Where I'm going with that is a hunch that you probably can't compare (for example) a Sebenza anda Hinderer. I could definitely be wrong...where is Chris Reeve, or STR... ;)
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I get what you are saying. I would say that in general a Ti/hardened steel friction joint is a bad idea, and it is very tricky to get it right, hence the steel inserts. It seems as though Spyderco either figured out how to properly work Ti, or they figured out a way to geometrically make the joint work because they no longer do that on any knives that I am aware of. Having said that I think the question above me is a good one. It does seem like a new issue which points again to a defect in the Ti, and not CRK's geometry. They have a proven design unless they have changed the geometry of the knives.

Edit: I watched that video, he definitely seems on to something...
 
I don't know if the older ones have this "issue"

I bet most Sebenza owners have some kind of slight deformation like I have.

I really don't think it's a problem as mine still locks up perfect and the lock face that interacts with the blade is still 99% or more intact.

I don't baby my users, but I take care of them though. And I don't flick them open (though it's been proven by CRK not to affect the lockbar)

Only advise I really have is To make sure you push the lockbar all the way out of the way.
Yes you can even push it a little past being parrellel with the locking side slab. You won't take tension off the bar by doing it.

Just my thoughts
 
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Help me - what's he onto??? :)

I have quite a few different Ti RIL knives here...Benchmades and Benchmade collaborations, Spydercos, Striders, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Some, like a 30 Skirmish, seem to have 100% surface engagement and a relatively flat (in one dimension) tang surface. Others, like the Stiders (and the Military) have a deeply concave tang surface and at least in the case of the Striders a very small percentage of surface contact. There's gotta be things going on with these differences. BTW/FWIW, Strider just changed their tangs so the radius of the concave grind on the tang is much, much larger (so the tang appears almost flat). I think they will probably have a longer service interval with those...but this stuff is not my field, just a hobby. And I'm probably way off the thread by now anyway... :(

nccole said:
I get what you are saying. I would say that in general a Ti/hardened steel friction joint is a bad idea, and it is very tricky to get it right, hence the steel inserts. It seems as though Spyderco either figured out how to properly work Ti, or they figured out a way to geometrically make the joint work because they no longer do that on any knives that I am aware of. Having said that I think the question above me is a good one. It does seem like a new issue which points again to a defect in the Ti, and not CRK's geometry. They have a proven design unless they have changed the geometry of the knives.

Edit: I watched that video, he definitely seems on to something...
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JNewell said:
Help me - what's he onto??? :)

I have quite a few different Ti RIL knives here...Benchmades and Benchmade collaborations, Spydercos, Striders, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Some, like a 30 Skirmish, seem to have 100% surface engagement and a relatively flat (in one dimension) tang surface. Others, like the Stiders (and the Military) have a deeply concave tang surface and at least in the case of the Striders a very small percentage of surface contact. There's gotta be things going on with these differences. BTW/FWIW, Strider just changed their tangs so the radius of the concave grind on the tang is much, much larger (so the tang appears almost flat). I think they will probably have a longer service interval with those...but this stuff is not my field, just a hobby. And I'm probably way off the thread by now anyway... :(
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I was just referring to the wear potentially coming from not pushing the lock-bar all the way over and the blade tang scraping by on the lock-bar upon closing. If the blade tang has a sharp edge and has not been beveled, it could be the cause of the gouging that we keep seeing. Ti does not obtain very high numbers on the Rockwell C scale, so it will wear of course but would also be susceptible to a gouging I would think. Seems like the best answer so far.
 
Socom Elite said:
I ran out of memory on my phone but hopefully you get the idea. The "gouges" on both my are very small, but there is definitely deformation there. Doesn't affect lockup in my case though. The marks on the lockface are exactly where the blade tang comes into contact with the lockbar when the lockbar is not moved all the way out of the way.

[video=youtube;F2V-NS2tHSk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2V-NS2tHSk[/video]
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I seem to have the beginnings of the same marks on one of my Sebenzas. I've only been carrying it a couple weeks though and like yours I've had no blade play nor locking issues so I haven't paid much attention to it nor have I been concerned. It was purchased new from a dealer. DOB March 22, 2012.

Not the best pic, but could get no closer:
photobucket-2339-1337315510060.jpg


Lock up is solid. Zero wiggle on the blade. Used with confidence:thumbup:

Looking forward to the next installment and have enjoyed the viewpoints shared in this thread.
 
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nccole said:
I was just referring to the wear potentially coming from not pushing the lock-bar all the way over and the blade tang scraping by on the lock-bar upon closing. If the blade tang has a sharp edge and has not been beveled, it could be the cause of the gouging that we keep seeing. Ti does not obtain very high numbers on the Rockwell C scale, so it will wear of course but would also be susceptible to a gouging I would think. Seems like the best answer so far.
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Therefore, closing the knife 1000s of times without completely displacing the lock-bar before closing the blade (i.e. rubbing the blade tang alongside the titanium lock-face to detent ball) is akin to 1000s of extremely soft spine-whacks. The force (linear motion + torque) applied to these areas over time is analogous to the power of dripping water slowly eroding through stone.

If this wear damage is as described, then CRK is obliged to repair said damage under warranty since the knife was engineered to fold in this manner. One could describe it as a defect in engineering of the folding process; hence, the redesign and application of Umnumzaan lock-face technology.

CRK Warranty
http://www.chrisreeve.com/warranty.htm

Although in reference to wolf5391's Sebenza or any other claim involving a "used" or "second-hand" blade, the life-long warranty the original owner enjoyed becomes null-and-void with any subsequent owner. Is this the legal basis for why CRK has refused to repair these knives free of charge?
 
I don't understand how closing before the lock bar is fully disengaged would cause any wear that opening wouldn't cause. Same contact points obviously. So without applying unusual amounts of force in closing im not sure how this would perpetuate the issue
 
kaosu04 said:
I don't understand how closing before the lock bar is fully disengaged would cause any wear that opening wouldn't cause. Same contact points obviously. So without applying unusual amounts of force in closing im not sure how this would perpetuate the issue
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It is because when opening it the lock bar is already "picked up" by the blade tang, and then locks in/over upon being all the way open. Then, when closing you have to move the lockbar all the way out of the way to iniate closing and to allow the tang to "pick back up" the lock bar. The problem appears to be that the pickup is not full and smooth and the harder tang is damaging the softer lockbar. I think the video does a better job illustrating than words, but hope this helps.
 
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