A Simple Statement

[mystro]

This is also my take on the video....

My personal view on the subject is...."It's a knife to use and enjoy using". I have so many knives from all makers and I use them all the same without exception. I think of them as a stabil of though bred horses. All will be lined up and raced the same way in my EDC rotation. I don't worry about abuse. When I buy a knife, I am buying into the maker an his ability to stand behind his work and a quality product. If something happens, I send it back and let the maker fix it. (this rarely happens) If I get charged or not, I want what I want. If I get great service, I will buy MANY more knives. If I don't then thats it, no more of my money will go to that particular knife maker. There are so many good knives out there and new talented knife makers comming up that I will never get to buy them all. Knife making at a this level is as much a service oriented business as it is the product. No one product is so good that great service can be excluded from the ownership experiences. It's like this with most high end items like flyrods, guns, etc...

He's saying neither I believe. From what I understand CRK is just making a point that even with 8k abusive wrist flicks you still get nowhere near the damage that some knives show up at CRK for warranty and they just want to set the record straight for how much ridiculous abuse those knives must of gone through to show up in such a sorry state.

 

[NeoClassic]

...

So if the knife can handle so much flicking 'abuse' without any real ill effect why are people having issues? And why is CR so quick to call abuse and refuse work/parts for repair? ...

CRK customer service is souring users to the point of starting threads that turn into fanboys vs. bitter customers (and the post are far from unbiased:thumbdn.

Hopefully the next installment will shed some more light on the topic.

-sh00ter

Very good points and exactly what I was thinking.

 

[김원진]

i like the person who used the door analogy. If you want to treat your CRK like a circus act go ahead. I don't slam my toilet lid, nor do i slam my car door. Flick your knife all you want, just don't go whining about warranty later. The people later that have started threads have either bought these used, or did something to them prior to sending them in. I remember someone talking about sharpening their CRK, then claiming the bevel was off or something. And now someone was complaining about flaking when it was bought used.

I do love my CRKs and am still learning things, but common sense goes a long way

 

[sh00ter01]

....I do love my CRKs and am still learning things, but common sense goes a long way

Well then, using common sense, if the test knife was wrist snapped opened 8,000 times with minimal wear and no flaking on the lock face, and a user is complaining about the heat treat flaking (no deformation), it points to a defect in the heat treat, no?

-sh00ter

 

[김원진]

maybe you didn't see my post before. But i'm pretty sure the person complaining about the "flaking" bought a used sebenza(admitted to it as well in the older thread).

The two people i've talked about didn't have much when starting their threads. I don't think CRK is perfect, they'll have hiccups, but in these particular occurrences i can remember, and the change in the umnumzaan, you can't blame them.

looking forward to the next video

 

[FoldersForever]

I'm confused. Everyone seems to think that the picture of the lock after 8000 flicks shows no wear, but to me it looks like the heat treatment is completely worn off the lock face. Am I missing something?

 

[Steel_Addiction]

I'm confused. Everyone seems to think that the picture of the lock after 8000 flicks shows no wear, but to me it looks like the heat treatment is completely worn off the lock face. Am I missing something?

I see the same thing it does look worn but not to the point of gouging the ti understructure.

Really interested to see what the next video shows.

 

[sh00ter01]

I'm confused. Everyone seems to think that the picture of the lock after 8000 flicks shows no wear, but to me it looks like the heat treatment is completely worn off the lock face. Am I missing something?

I personally said 'minimal wear'; there's appears to be a little bit of the heat treat worn away (not flaked, but worn), but overall it appear to be in rather good condition given the severity/quantity of the 'wrist snaps':thumbup:

-sh00ter

 

[Professor]

I love my CRK's, but have no dog in this fight, as if there is in fact a problem or defect, I'd want it addressed also.

That said, what "flaking" of the ti are folks referring to?

The damaged lockbar faces pictured in this thread are not the result of "flaked" titanium. They are gouges in the ti.

Yes the lockbar faces are hardened to minimize wear from normal engagement, but where are folks getting this "flaking" stuff?

Prof.

 

[FoldersForever]

I would like to see CRK provide some conclusions on the results from the first test ( ie, what do they think we learned from that test). As an engineer when you conduct a test, you then analyze the test data and provide some conclusions. That didn't happen here.

 

[sh00ter01]

I love my CRK's, but have no dog in this fight, as if there is in fact a problem or defect, I'd want it addressed also.

That said, what "flaking" of the ti are folks referring to?

The damaged lockbar faces pictured in this thread are not the result of "flaked" titanium. They are gouges in the ti.

Yes the lockbar faces are hardened to minimize wear from normal engagement, but where are folks getting this "flaking" stuff?

Prof.

The Ti isn't 'flaking', the heat treat on top the Ti is. I've seen a few pics where there appears to only be the lost of the heat treat (a flake missing if you will) and no deformation of the lock face that ends up resulting in slight up and down blade play. I don't know if the lock face can just be re-heat treated (probably not with much success as you'd be adding more build up to all the surface area of the lock); some clarification on this would be nice from CRK.

I used the term 'flaking' for lack of a better one, not sure if there is a proper term for it.

I would like to see CRK provide some conclusions on the results from the first test ( ie, what do they think we learned from that test). As an engineer when you conduct a test, you then analyze the test data and provide some conclusions. That didn't happen here.

This is part of what I'm not understanding; they say don't flick your knife, then do so aggressively for 8000 reps without any real ill effect. Not sure what they're getting at.

Like I said:

I don't know, I'm not sure what point CRK is trying to convey in there post. In the pics of the deformed lock face it obvious that the knife has been abused (and I'm sure it shows sign of abuse elsewhere as well); these knife obviously shouldn't be repaired on Chris's dime.

BUT, forget about the deformed lock faces for a minute. People have posted pics of lock faces where the heat treat has flaked, no deformation, just a flake, and CR says that they abused the knife by flicking. Their pic is of a knife then been supposedly wrist snapped open 8,000 times, and show only minimal wear and no flaking. So if the knife can handle so much flicking 'abuse' without any real ill effect why are people having issues? And why is CR so quick to call abuse and refuse work/parts for repair? Sounds to me like a couple lemons are getting through from time to time and rather then handle these issues, CRK customer service is souring users to the point of starting threads that turn into fanboys vs. bitter customers (and the post are far from unbiased:thumbdn.

Hopefully the next installment will shed some more light on the topic.

-sh00ter

-sh00ter

 

[kreole]

I'm sure more information is coming, guys and gals. Ms. Reeve already said as much. And you don't analyze a picture when it's only half painted.

Besides, Mr. Reeve probably had to take a week off to recuperate after that first test. Without considering slowing up from fatigue, 8000 flicks at maybe 3 seconds each is 6 hours and 40 minutes of continuous flicking! After that much exercise, he must be starting to look like Freddie Rodriguez from the movie "Lady in the Water":

 

[Professor]

The Ti isn't 'flaking', the heat treat on top the Ti is. I've seen a few pics where there appears to only be the lost of the heat treat (a flake missing if you will) and no deformation of the lock face that ends up resulting in slight up and down blade play. I don't know if the lock face can just be re-heat treated (probably not with much success as you'd be adding more build up to all the surface area of the lock); some clarification on this would be nice from CRK.

I used the term 'flaking' for lack of a better one, not sure if there is a proper term for it.

Ok, I'm tracking. I think what you're referring to is the normal and expected "smoothing" or "polishing" that occurs with the continuous mating of two metal surfaces, no matter how heat treated they may be.

"Micro-wear," if you will.

Prof.

 

[FoldersForever]

I'm sure more information is coming, guys and gals. Ms. Reeve already said as much. And you don't analyze a picture when it's only half painted.

From one test you may not be able to provide a complete solution to the problem, but you can summarize what was learned from that particular test. Part of what was learned could be that more testing is required. Just for the record, I am a huge CRK fan and it would take a lot for me to change that opinion.

 

[Thomason]

Sebenzas are for cutting, boogers are for flicking.

 

[sh00ter01]

Ok, I'm tracking. I think what you're referring to is the normal and expected "smoothing" or "polishing" that occurs with the continuous mating of two metal surfaces, no matter how heat treated they may be.

"Micro-wear," if you will.

Prof.

Uhh... kinda... When you heat treat a Ti lock face you add an oxide layer on top of the Ti (sort of like a shell), it's harder then the Ti and helps with lock wear. With use, you'll very slowly wear at the oxide layer, which is evident in the CRK's pics (there experiment was of course very much accelerated). The problem is when a larger portion of the oxide flakes off the lock face; it's been chalked up to abuse caused by flicking by CRK, but then their video and picture shows that even with abuse the lock face was in rather good condition.

So, again we have to wait and see what their next post will show. At this point their video conflicts with there claims that flicking is the cause of all the damage we see user posting (mainly the flaking issue; again deformation is obvious abuse that Chris shouldn't have to cover under warranty).

-sh00ter

 

[DrFish]

Flaking to me sounds like an eggshell effect. If you have a hard outer layer and a hardened surface, sufficient force can deform the soft underlayer enough to allow the hardened surface to crack.

 

[Thirteen13]

aren't you the same one who said you bought your sebenza used?

I thought so too :thumbdn:

 

[cziv]

Oh my gosh, I just watched that video! What kind of a user would (or could, in my case) slam a Sebenza open that hard for way over 8000 times (meaning customers that fib about their lock rock)! I couldn't do that to my $400 - $500 Sebenzas - my word, that was brutal.

No warranty work for you Mr. Reeve, you abused your knife by wrist flicking!!

That is one rugged lock though sir. :thumbup: If you really did 8K reps that hard, I'm not going to worry about my locks cuz I don't wrist flick let alone whatever THAT was called.

I can't wait for the next installment so I can find out what's screwing up the locks that display the major damage.

 

[Professor]

Roger that. Looking forward to it too.

Uhh... kinda... When you heat treat a Ti lock face you add an oxide layer on top of the Ti (sort of like a shell), it's harder then the Ti and helps with lock wear. With use, you'll very slowly wear at the oxide layer, which is evident in the CRK's pics (there experiment was of course very much accelerated). The problem is when a larger portion of the oxide flakes off the lock face; it's been chalked up to abuse caused by flicking by CRK, but then their video and picture shows that even with abuse the lock face was in rather good condition.

So, again we have to wait and see what their next post will show. At this point their video conflicts with there claims that flicking is the cause of all the damage we see user posting (mainly the flaking issue; again deformation is obvious abuse that Chris shouldn't have to cover under warranty).

-sh00ter