A Tinder Discussion (And A Slight Rant...)

Guyon said:
I didn't get that at all. I thought the point was that some folks are handicapped by some strange sense that fatwood is cheating, even when it's found naturally in an environment. As I read mistwalker's post, he just wanted these young men to see beyond somebody else's arbitrary rules about what constitutes bushcraft.

Even in the last part, he was making the point (correctly I think) that, everything else being equal, fatwood is going to give the outdoorsman an advantage. Why not take advantage of it?
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I hear ya. I've got no problem with fatwood or the use of it.
I thought the last challenge he made was hypocritical. That's what I was trying to say even though I may not have expressed that well.
Iz
 
mat_890 said:
Personally don't understand the point of man-made tinders people love to carry (why not bring a bic) but to each his own.
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The point is that there may be times when your tail, or somebody else's, is on the line, and you need a sure thing--something you don't have to search for and something that will give you a sustained burn even in wet weather. Like I said, it's not always a game about skills.

bindlestitch said:
I hear ya. I've got no problem with fatwood or the use of it.
I thought the last challenge he made was hypocritical. That's what I was trying to say even though I may not have expressed that well.
Iz
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Maybe he's just the competitive type. :p

Not sure, but I thought his point was more about the advantage and not the skills. If mistwalker was challenging my skills, I'll accept his challenge, but I get to use one of these. :D

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I have to say I'm with Iz on this one, how can we (non-boreal guys) find and use fatwood when its not here to find.

I'm not sayin its cheating at all, as if I had it to use I would. And no I'm not going to go out and buy the stuff. Because if I was going to purchase tinder to carry it would be something more along the lines of issued trioxane tabs or wetfire tabs. Or hell a bottle of heet or even gasoline for that matter.

I say use what you have in your area of operation, if you plan to travel to an area that doesn't have fatwood you had better bone up on some different methods or YOU will be the one setting cold and wet, without a fire. As the skills I use to get a fire in the rain will work both in a hardwoods forest and a boreal forest. That mainly being the one stick/heartwood strapings fire.

My rant over!
 
skab8541 said:
I say use what you have in your area of operation, if you plan to travel to an area that doesn't have fatwood you had better bone up on some different methods or YOU will be the one setting cold and wet, without a fire.
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Good points.
 
Here is the way I see it...I like to practice my craft. So I tend to try and use materials that I think are not necessarily the easiest thing at my disposal (when it is not an emergency).

When the day comes that I can enter the woods naked and empty handed in freezing rain and make myself a fire and shelter...perhaps I will scoff at someone for using a Bic lighter and/or fat wood, but I doubt it. I just really don't think I should be concerned with another man or woman that seems to have found something that works for them.
 
Mist, I would bet any amount of $$$ you were a school teacher in your previous life. Good beginnings, stay on subject thru middle of lecture, close with a solid conclusion but is still open for discussion. No doubt in my mind you were. I really don't consider what you said as a rant, but I have a different take on it. Your post reminds me of something my dad use to tell me growing up when I would get angry over something or someone . . . " Tact is the ability to step on another man's shoes without messing up the shine " . . .You Mist, are a very "tactful" person . . . :)
Great shots as usual, thanks for the information.
Be safe.
 
unit said:
Here is the way I see it...I like to practice my craft. So I tend to try and use materials that I think are not necessarily the easiest thing at my disposal (when it is not an emergency).

When the day comes that I can enter the woods naked and empty handed in freezing rain and make myself a fire and shelter...perhaps I will scoff at someone for using a Bic lighter and/or fat wood, but I doubt it. I just really don't think I should be concerned with another man or woman that seems to have found something that works for them.
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Agreed. Let's keep in mind that mistwalker's post had an eye toward teaching young men. Encouraging a young man to enter the woods with some minimalist conventions in place might be a way of getting him to expand his skill set and instill confidence. In the wrong set of circumstances, however, if that young man is unable to think outside the box and beyond those limited conventions, it could wind up being a very dangerous game indeed.

JUST1MOR said:
Your post reminds me of something my dad use to tell me growing up when I would get angry over something or someone . . . " Tact is the ability to step on another man's shoes without messing up the shine "
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Given my earlier post, I think I must've missed that lesson. :p
 
bindlestitch said:
So you spent all that time and energy to defend your use of fatwood and to show that you know how to use other natural tinders.
But then you tell us how much more superior of a woodsman you are than those who you were accusing of being elitist?
Seem hypocritical to me, man.

I'd use fatwood if I had it, but I don't. Therefore I've learned what to use when it's raining (while it's raining) to start a fire with natural tinder. So, I'm thinking unless something unusual happened I wouldn't be freezing my ass off in my camp while you were warm.
I was cool with your post and thought you made some good points until you went overboard on that last part.
There's my rant over.
Iz
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Hmm, where to start with this one...at the beginning I suppose.

I spent all of that energy for the same reasons I usually spend that much energy...to teach something to the less experienced, and to make a point.

I don't recall using the words "superior" or "elitists" anywhere in my post. No need to get defensive and try to put words in my mouth.

I've read your posts and I understand you have a great deal of skill in the out-of-doors, however there is a good chance I know my area better than you do, just as I am sure you know yours better than I.

Most people that have never lived here really don't know just how wet it is. It is called a temperate rain forest for a reason. You may not freeze...that may have been a bit of an over-statement in my rant in comparison to some here. But under the conditions of the above invitation (a near worse case scenario weather wise) the very air you breath will be a vale of billions upon billions of drops of moisture floating on the breeze. Rivulets and droplets will be continually falling off of every limb and every leaf to a long wet forest floor. Any dead wood not hard as a rock will be as a damp sponge all the way through, and the shavings from the semi-dry center of any dead hardwood you split will absorb moisture as fast as you can shave them. The point I was trying to make was that under such conditions with both using only ferro rods for ignition, with me using the fatwood that will be laying all around me, and anyone else using any other organic tinder they can find I will be warm long before they are, I would be through eating and on to resting before many ever got the first flame, and many others would not achieve flames at all. I can have foot tall flames in five minutes give or take from the time I pick up my tinder even under those conditions, and I can do so working at a leisurely pace using little energy. That's not me saying I am superior to anyone else. That is just what I have repeatedly seen with my own eyes in forty years of experience in this rain forest. Camp firecraft was my responsibility from the age of six and as commercial fishermen, trappers, and as hunters we spent weeks at a time in these woods constantly. If there was any other comparable way I'd use it. As of yet, only chemical tinders come close, and packing enough of those to sustain fire in the rain under these conditions would be a real pain.
 
LOL awesome post. Myself I like to try all sorta stuff to make fire. Most of the time its what works the fastest at the time. Even after I get my fire going I will still start others using other stuff just for fun.
 
I love fatwood and can't fathom anyone who would be so ignorant as to say it is cheating since it is 100% natural after all. I was thinking how on earth could some of these snobs light a fire say if they were dumped in the PNW say this time of year. :thumbup: Then the light bulb went off. I know the only way. They eat they survival beans three meals per day. They are SO TIGHT ARSSED that the combination of the 1) EXTREME HEAT-produced by the friction of the 2) FUEL- methane exiting their tight arsses in combination with 3) OXYGEN- in the air, is high enough to cause a flash fire upon which they aim towards their water tinder to ignite. Their anal retentive (AR) survival fire is so exothermic that it can separate H2O into hydrogen and oxygen thus burning water. :eek:

A few people I have met can probably even sublimate ice too!
 
Are fire steels cheating too? Are matches?
How about synthetic clothing? Is that cheating?
Modern drugs and bandaging? It ain't all herbs in my first aid kit.
How about maps? Maybe the elitists are amateur cartographers.
Do we have to weave our own clothing? Uh oh. I don't own any sheep.
Should we craft every single piece of gear from naturally found products? Where does it end?

OMG. I bought all my knives and didn't forge a single one of them myself. :eek:
 
Guyon said:
The point is that there may be times when your tail, or somebody else's, is on the line, and you need a sure thing--something you don't have to search for and something that will give you a sustained burn even in wet weather. Like I said, it's not always a game about skills.
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Oh I agree, I'm not into playing games with peoples lives, I just don't understand choosing a firesteel and wetfire for your plan B rather then just a lighter. I guess they burn longer, thats a plus.

Some people (I'm not referring to you) seem to have this attitude that using Vasoline cotton balls/man-made starter/dryer lint is somehow tests your bushcraft skills.
 
Barbarossa said:
I love fatwood and can't fathom anyone who would be so ignorant as to say it is cheating since it is 100% natural after all. I was thinking how on earth could some of these snobs light a fire say if they were dumped in the PNW say this time of year. :thumbup: Then the light bulb went off. I know the only way. They eat they survival beans three meals per day. They are SO TIGHT ARSSED that the combination of the 1) EXTREME HEAT-produced by the friction of the 2) FUEL- methane exiting their tight arsses in combination with 3) OXYGEN- in the air, is high enough to cause a flash fire upon which they aim towards their water tinder to ignite. Their anal retentive (AR) survival fire is so exothermic that it can separate H2O into hydrogen and oxygen thus burning water. :eek:

A few people I have met can probably even sublimate ice too!
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+ one billion :)
 
skab8541 said:
And no I'm not going to go out and buy the stuff. Because if I was going to purchase tinder to carry it would be something more along the lines of issued trioxane tabs or wetfire tabs.
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Skab8541,

I agree about learning to use what you have in your area. Nonetheless, I think it's also worth carrying some reliable tinder, just in case. I carry some fatwood not because it's the best natural tinder that can be found in my area, but because it's the best tinder I know of, period. (I do love trioxane, too, but trioxane is not necessarily as reliable, because it will evaporate and degrade if the delicate foil pouch gets damaged.) In my opinion, fatwood is clearly superior to Wetfire.

(I used to have some extensive testing and discussion of wetfire, trioxane, fatwood, and a number of other tinders, on my website. Unfortunately, I just took that stuff down, as I re-did my website. I'll try to get that stuff put back, when I can.)

There's nothing wrong with carrying tinder for emergency preparation, when you can. If you are going to do that, then I suggest you give fatwood a try, for this purpose, rather than just assume it is not as good as man-made alternatives.
 
mat_890 said:
Some people (I'm not referring to you) seem to have this attitude that using Vasoline cotton balls/man-made starter/dryer lint is somehow tests your bushcraft skills.
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Oh no. That's not what I meant at all. I was just railing against any attitude that I'm somehow "less than" because I carry them.

I've been using PJ cotton balls for at least a decade. I used to carry them in a 35mm film canister back when you could find such things handily. Now I put them inside large Sonic straws (I like the width and the red color). PJ cotton balls work without fail. One spark and you've got a good five minute burn. Combine a fire straw with a stick or two of fatwood, and that's about as sure a fire as I've found. Quick to light, sure to burn. With my backside on the line, that's what I want in my pack.

Not a substitute for skills, but also not items to be disdained. :thumbup:
 
mat_890 said:
I just don't understand choosing a firesteel and wetfire for your plan B rather then just a lighter. I guess they burn longer, thats a plus.
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Mat,

I carry both a lighter and a firesteel. Lighters are great. However, lighters can break easily. They can get wet and be hard to light. They can be hard to light in wind. Or high altitude. Or extreme cold. They can accidentally leak all their fuel. And so on.

Since firesteels are not prone to any of those issues, they can make a good back up. In the circumstances when lighters work, they're definitely expedient. A firesteel is good to have, too, because of the ways lighters can be unreliable.
 
Guyon said:
Are fire steels cheating too? Are matches?
How about synthetic clothing? Is that cheating?
Modern drugs and bandaging? It ain't all herbs in my first aid kit.
How about maps? Maybe the elitists are amateur cartographers.
Do we have to weave our own clothing? Uh oh. I don't own any sheep.
Should we craft every single piece of gear from naturally found products? Where does it end?

OMG. I bought all my knives and didn't forge a single one of them myself. :eek:
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Please realize that I'm just having some fun here and that the sarcasm, while intentional, is meant in good humor.
I've seen this same debate in other arenas. One place this same tension always comes up is in blackpowder gun forums. Traditionalists vs. the inline guys. It goes round and round. No one is ever satisfied, and hardly anyone ever changes his mind. :p
 
Terrific post. Bookmarked it so I can pass it along to newbies.

Fatwood is a great resource. I prefer PJCBs for everyday fire-starting, but it's hard to argue with a nice bit of flammable, resinous wood.

Best,

- Mike
 
You have to wonder about some of the people that post here and elsewhere. I know that some are total wilderness bada$$es that I enjoy learning from. I also know that others are armchair warriors that I wouldn't trust to survive in their own kitchen. That ends up meaning that I take everything I read with a grain of salt. That is probably the most critical lesson I can take from your excellent post Mistwalker. That kid didn't have practical experience and could only relay faulty, second-hand knowledge to you. Thankfully, he had the opportunity to see you successfully start a fire under adverse conditions. If he has a lick of common sense, he'll learn more from your 3 minute fire starting session than he ever will from the Internet. Perhaps that is a lesson that we can all take from your story. Having our own hands on experience and passing that experience on to others is priceless. It also reinforces a philosophy for me regarding survival skills. Simply put, it's that I will survive "By Any Means Necessary". I don't know how I would react in certain situations, but I know that practical application before hand will be lead to better choices being made when they really count. There is no room for conceit or pride when your life is on the line. Anyone who believes otherwise is on the shortlist to being a statistic.
 
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