A Tinder Discussion (And A Slight Rant...)

[kgd]

I have surprisingly few pet peeves on wilderness sites.... fatwood posts are one of them... for no good reason.

Some others are...
-Anything Ken posts... aside from knife reviews... that's cool.

Ha ha! Touche!

Personally don't understand the point of man-made tinders people love to carry (why not bring a bic) but to each his own.

I just don't understand choosing a firesteel and wetfire for your plan B rather then just a lighter. I guess they burn longer, thats a plus.

Some people (I'm not referring to you) seem to have this attitude that using Vasoline cotton balls/man-made starter/dryer lint is somehow tests your bushcraft skills.

Mat, I do not find a bic lighter to be as reliable as you imply above. A bic lighter, sans tinder does not relieve you from finding tinder under a wet environment condition. You aren't going to hold your lighter under a soggy twig and wait for it to ignite. Now, there are options like the one stick fire that you can produce shavings and light with either lighter or firesteel. But the ignition sources is what it is. The lighter really should be viewed as an ignition source and not ignition source + tinder. Thats my take. Hey if you want to bring a wetfire and bic - that is a stunner combo. I prefer the wetfire firesteel, but they both work.

Regarding your second statement. Skills are skills and people progress through different routines. Practicing lighting a PJCB with firesteel is good so that you learn how to do it and what to expect. The main point is if you never did it before and just through a fire steel in your pack the chances of you getting a fire going without practice are very small unless you have some familiarity with advanced fire skills. Likewise, from your above statement, the reality is you give most people a bic lighter and some wood and they also don't know how to start a fire. Despite the ignition source, the skills come through practice.

The technology used should be viewed independent of the skills generated. I think that also is something that Mistwalker is trying to present as applied to tinder. Who cares if it is synthetic, found piece of fatwood or some cow dung that you stuck under your armpit for an hour and later rolled between your palms to extract the fiber. Skills are skills and easy to hard, we all gotta take a tortuous path to learn them.

Mist, I would bet any amount of $$$ you were a school teacher in your previous life. Good beginnings, stay on subject thru middle of lecture, close with a solid conclusion but is still open for discussion. No doubt in my mind you were.

School teachers do that? Where do you live...I want to send my kids to school in your neighborhood!

Agreed. Let's keep in mind that mistwalker's post had an eye toward teaching young men. Encouraging a young man to enter the woods with some minimalist conventions in place might be a way of getting him to expand his skill set and instill confidence.

Good stuff Guyon....I always like your posts.....The one above reminded me of such a great song!

[youtube]HgVIJuHowGo[/youtube]

Are fire steels cheating too? Are matches?
How about synthetic clothing? Is that cheating?
Modern drugs and bandaging? It ain't all herbs in my first aid kit.
How about maps? Maybe the elitists are amateur cartographers.
Do we have to weave our own clothing? Uh oh. I don't own any sheep.
Should we craft every single piece of gear from naturally found products? Where does it end?

OMG. I bought all my knives and didn't forge a single one of them myself.

All very good points. I view much of the types of firecraft that I practice as more hobby than survival oriented. I think there are some basic skills of value form learning primitive fire. For example, using embers/sparks to generate fire teaches the value of tinder which is an extension on the micro-scale of the kindling-to-fuel concept. As I responded to Matt above, while using a lighter (or a firesteel for that matter) can extend the range of tinder used, perhaps even to the point of what I would call the small scale of kindling, the knowledge and skill to recognize, collect and use a progression of materials to aid in fire can only be helpful. When the chips are down you have to rely on your skills to circumvent the shortfalls of where your normal methodology has presumably failed.

Oh, and my bic-fu skills really do suck. I'm actually a lot faster at starting a fire with traditional flint and steel than I am with a bic....But I'm kind of strange that way.

 

[JGON]

If using fatwood is wrong, then I don't wanna be right...

JGON

 

[Mentor]

Some people (I'm not referring to you) seem to have this attitude that using Vasoline cotton balls/man-made starter/dryer lint is somehow tests your bushcraft skills.

Some folks don't view every fire as a test of their bushcraft skills, though. Some just want a reliable fire-starting method.

I recognize the importance of challenging oneself, and of skills development. But I also recognize the fact that a PJCB and a spark will always get my fire going. And when I'm interested in making a cup of coffee while I'm out enjoying the wilderness, this is preferable to a friction fire.

Best,

- Mike

 

[Guyon]

Who cares if it is synthetic, found piece of fatwood or some cow dung that you stuck under your armpit for an hour and later rolled between your palms to extract the fiber.

Have you been studying with Bear Grylls again?

Good stuff Guyon....I always like your posts.....The one above reminded me of such a great song!

[youtube]HgVIJuHowGo[/youtube]

You just confused the dickens out of me , but I will grant you one thing: that is a great song.

My daughter just jammed it out.

 

[6shooter]

OMG. I bought all my knives and didn't forge a single one of them myself.

Forging is cheating bro. If you ain't knappin' flint, you ain't nothin.

 

[kgd]

I wrote all that and should mention that it was an admirable post by Mistwalker and I'm sympathetic to what is described as downright soggy and wet. I like my little coghlan firesticks as a back up for that just in case moment.

 

[Guyon]

Forging is cheating bro. If you ain't knappin' flint, you ain't nothin.

Point well taken. Now where did I put my flint knappin' stuff?

 

[kgd]

Have you been studying with Bear Grylls again?



You just confused the dickens out of me , but I will grant you one thing: that is a great song.

My daughter just jammed it out.

Hey, cow dung is good stuff!

Let's keep in mind that mistwalker's post had an eye toward teaching young men. Encouraging a young man to enter the woods with some minimalist conventions in place might be a way of getting him to expand his skill set and instill confidence....

On the song, I was just keying on the term 'young man'....Of course I was not making any reference or challenge to anybody's sexuality or anything. The words Young Man are the opening line of YMCA and true to the spirit of your post, Mistwalker's endeavorer seems to align with the broader goals of YMCA (not cross dressing disco singers)... All in fun

Plus, I get to apparently make Rick violently ill again...

 

[bindlestitch]

Hmm, where to start with this one...at the beginning I suppose.

I spent all of that energy for the same reasons I usually spend that much energy...to teach something to the less experienced, and to make a point.

I don't recall using the words "superior" or "elitists" anywhere in my post. No need to get defensive and try to put words in my mouth.

C'mon , Mist. Don't be coy. You made your post because you got definsive about your using fatwood so much. So in making your defense, which I think was unnecessary, you set out to challenge those of us who don't use fatwood. So yeah, I got defensive, too.
You didn't use the words elitist or superior but you definitely inferred it in your post. It's obvious so there's no need to deny it.

I've read your posts and I understand you have a great deal of skill in the out-of-doors, however there is a good chance I know my area better than you do, just as I am sure you know yours better than I.

Most people that have never lived here really don't know just how wet it is. It is called a temperate rain forest for a reason. You may not freeze...that may have been a bit of an over-statement in my rant in comparison to some here. But under the conditions of the above invitation (a near worse case scenario weather wise) the very air you breath will be a vale of billions upon billions of drops of moisture floating on the breeze. Rivulets and droplets will be continually falling off of every limb and every leaf to a long wet forest floor. Any dead wood not hard as a rock will be as a damp sponge all the way through, and the shavings from the semi-dry center of any dead hardwood you split will absorb moisture as fast as you can shave them. The point I was trying to make was that under such conditions with both using only ferro rods for ignition, with me using the fatwood that will be laying all around me, and anyone else using any other organic tinder they can find I will be warm long before they are, I would be through eating and on to resting before many ever got the first flame, and many others would not achieve flames at all. I can have foot tall flames in five minutes give or take from the time I pick up my tinder even under those conditions, and I can do so working at a leisurely pace using little energy. That's not me saying I am superior to anyone else. That is just what I have repeatedly seen with my own eyes in forty years of experience in this rain forest. Camp firecraft was my responsibility from the age of six and as commercial fishermen, trappers, and as hunters we spent weeks at a time in these woods constantly. If there was any other comparable way I'd use it. As of yet, only chemical tinders come close, and packing enough of those to sustain fire in the rain under these conditions would be a real pain.

Of course you can get fire faster with fatwood than without in that kind of environment. Who the heck couldn't? And anybody who wouldn't use it if they had to would be a fool in my opinion. Do you know of anyone who'd actually refuse to use it if they were in a desperate situation and needed it? I don't.
So it seems to me you set up a straw man to knock him down to defend yourself against attacks on your skills.
I don't think that neceassry, if you have a good time in the woods then who cares what others think? That's what it's all about right? Having fun?
It is for me, maybe that's why I don't understand so many of these conversations.
Iz

 

[Guyon]

Plus, I get to apparently make Rick violently ill again...

That's all you had to say.

 

[Barbarossa]

Good stuff Guyon....I always like your posts.....The one above reminded me of such a great song!

[youtube]HgVIJuHowGo[/youtube]

Too funny. I don't think any of these guys in the video could use the "AR" survival method I spoke of earlier.

 

[mat_890]

Mat, I do not find a bic lighter to be as reliable as you imply above. A bic lighter, sans tinder does not relieve you from finding tinder under a wet environment condition. You aren't going to hold your lighter under a soggy twig and wait for it to ignite. Now, there are options like the one stick fire that you can produce shavings and light with either lighter or firesteel. But the ignition sources is what it is. The lighter really should be viewed as an ignition source and not ignition source + tinder. Thats my take. Hey if you want to bring a wetfire and bic - that is a stunner combo. I prefer the wetfire firesteel, but they both work.

Regarding your second statement. Skills are skills and people progress through different routines. Practicing lighting a PJCB with firesteel is good so that you learn how to do it and what to expect. The main point is if you never did it before and just through a fire steel in your pack the chances of you getting a fire going without practice are very small unless you have some familiarity with advanced fire skills. Likewise, from your above statement, the reality is you give most people a bic lighter and some wood and they also don't know how to start a fire. Despite the ignition source, the skills come through practice.

Your right in many cases, but with a man made starter, how many fires can you make in the rain? What happens if you have to move unexpectedly? Your risking a lot on a very limited number of attempts if you rely solely on your man made tinder for backup. I also never considered a lighter/tinder combo, duh but I suppose your right, that would be ideal.

While using only a lighter I guess I implied you need a baseline level of skills to find semi dry tinder, but with a flame, even wet things dry fast.

I have and use a firesteel, but its for fun. I also keep magnesium handy, again for fun. For anyone who hasn't looked into them, peanut lighters run on zippo fluid and work when wet/cold/altitude and the fluid inside them won't evaporate.

 

[IA Woodsman]

Mistwalker, I understand teaching and useing area specific tinders. I will say this. I think useing natural tinders gathered in your area is survival skill not really a bushcraft skill. A proper woodsman always has a good fire kit stocked and ready to go. Just like you stated. I love useing natural materials for shelters as well, but I always have a tarp with me. I have lived and taught in several parts of the country. When I am in an area that has pitchwood I use it. It is a very fast and easy fire. I almost always carry it with me.

If you are teaching survival skills that will work in any area, splitting wood to get to the dry inside is the best method. Once you get to that dry wood, scrapings or fine shavings will ignite with a firesteel. This, like anything takes practice.

In my humble opinion useing pitchwood all of the time makes it easy to skip stages of your prep. Skipping stages when you don't have an excellent tinder,like pitchwood, can lead to failure. I think you are a competent woodsman. I know you can start a fire with a tinder other than pitchwood. Some people can not, those are the ones that need to be taught that prior proper preparation prevent piss poor performance.

 

[beef]

I haven't seen anyone on this forum saying fatwood is cheating.
I've seen people write to say "yes, we know you can hack trees and light fatwood, how about stretching yourself and trying advanced skills". Which may not be their place to say, but makes for interesting reading.

 

[Moosez45]

In the bushcraft community (I'm generalizing here, don't murder me), there is a sense of "if you can't bash two rocks together and get fire, you ain't a bushman". I know, I have felt it here and on some other sites that favor the idea that bushcraft is survival. The are two totally seperate entities, granted being a good busher, makes survival not much of a problem, but being a good survivalist (if there is such a thing) may not make you a good busher.

Its two schools of thought that often blur the lines between skill and knowledge. Most survival is based on the knowledge of what you must do in order to survive. Practicing those skills runs into bushcraft sometimes. But the sheer fact of the matter is, in a tough situation, there is no such thing as cheating. Sorry, thats just how it is.

I have seen some busher (not in these hallowed hallst) that feel if you carry more than a 4" knife, billy, and firesteel, you ain't a bushman. Bullshit. All of it. Just because someone else can't get by with those items, doesn't mean someone else is any less of an outdoors man. Its a fine line, and a good bushbeating outing can turn into a survival situation in a hurry, if God, fate, or luck is against you, depending on what you believe.

I know what Mist's point is, as well as what is is referring to. Some people feel that fatwood is cheating. Well, where the hell is the referee to blow the whistle then. There ain't no rules in survival and bushcraft, just another persons perspective on another. Some people feel if you ain't got the latest and lightest backpacking gear, you ain't a real backpacker. If you ain't rockin' a 16cm billy pot, you aint a busher. Screw that. I'm an outdoors enthusiest, and I play it to the hilt everytime I go out.

I take what I need, what I think I'll need, and what I hope I won't need. I like making bow drills and practicing. I've gotten pretty good with them, lately. Am I going to stake my life on my ability to start a fire with one? IF ITS ALL I GOT, THEN ITS GONNA HAVE TO DO. If I got a Bic and some wefire, I ain't makin' a bow drill kit. If the chips are down, and I need fire fast, and my choices are a bic/wetfire or a road flare, I'm takin' the flare.

Not one time in 20yrs in the woods, have I even been penalized for using what I got. No ref has blown the whistle and pushed me back 20yds for a fatwood penalty, or roadflare, or ah, hell, you get the idea.

Survival means cheating (Always cheat, always win-Clint Smith), to do whatever it takes to survive another minute, hour, or day. Whatever it takes, at all costs. No holds barred.

Some of us walk the line between bushin' out and survivalist training, the two are closely related, but in reality, if was to practice survival training in my backyard, I'd be siphoning off gas from the lawnmower and throwin' a fireball to the heavens for warmth. Bushcrafting practice is alot more fun and challenging. Learn the basics, have the skills, but NEVER FEEL CONSTRAINED TO STAY WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF BUSHCRAFTING WHEN YOUR LIFE IS ON THE LINE.

Whew, we all woke up from our turkey naps full of piss and vinegar, didn't we:thumbup:

Moose

 

[kgd]

Skipping stages when you don't have an excellent tinder,like pitchwood, can lead to failure.

Good post. I think 'getting stuck in a rut' with regard to habits can be extended to all survival skills. Its why we are supposed to keep up CPR every year.

 

[sicily02]

I enjoyed reading this post, Brian. I like the pics too.

Great that you were teaching some woodcraft skills to some young woodsmen in training.

Horace Kephart, wrote
" In the school of the woods there is no graduation day. "

Learning woodcraft is for as long as you live and practice and study it for as long as we live. We learn until we die.

Learning as many ways to start a fire is just adding to your woodcraft skills.

wow, it is to bad that some woodsmen think using this or that to start a fire is cheating. the point is to get a fire going.


Bryan

 

[texastonydobbs]

I find MW threads great & enjoy the pics....
To me, it's did you get fire ? Yes ... Cool
whether firesteel and natural tinder or not a fire is a fire .....IF I struggle.... I'll pull my Bic or Zippo out with the quickness....

 

[Rick Marchand]

The one thing that's keeping me from vomiting over all this fatwood talk and Ken's postings is that you guys are seeing the need for learning firemaking from the ground up. Whether you carry a bic or ahem... a blowtorch:thumbup:, knowing those core principles can help you troubleshoot when things aren't working.


Rick

 

[CoyotePhysics]

I like practicing with different types of tinder for fun... In reality I would rather be prepared than be skilled. I've considered buying some fatwood online, but I always carry a magnesium bar with me. It sits right next to my bic lighter. If my life ever depends on my ability to start a fire with a ferro-rod and natural tinder, about a dozen things have gone wrong, but I practice doing it anyway because I like to.

Thanks for the pics. They are a good reference of things to keep my eyes open for.