A2 Steel Update

SeanODCS said:
Andrew, thanks very much.
Are there other models planned for the future perhaps ?

And maybe enlighten us as to why SK5, O-1 and 52100 were not considered ?
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I am not sure 52100 is available in sheet/plate form , A-2 is a good upgrade over sk5 and O-1 , for those knives . We wanted to improve the knife overall, failing that we decided to hit the lower and higher level with 4034 and 3v. Pending the success of the kukri+ , recon scout and trailmaster in 3v we intend to offer the other 8mm thick stuff in 3v. Unfortunately 3v is really hard to manufacture especially in those large thick blades, and really expensive
 
DemkoKnives said:
This in no easy task, in fact our vendor has built a custom made blade grinder just to grind our big 3v knives.
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That makes me wonder where will those be made?

My Warcraft Tanto is made in Taiwan and it's in 3V so they certainly do have blade grinder capable of grinding 3V there in Taiwan.
Edit: Unless the blade was ground somewhere else and was assembled with handle in Taiwan.

And also the big question - which models?
And yeah, after years long wait, these people here will most likley have to see it to believe it.
 
DemkoKnives said:
trailmaster ,kukri plus
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:) These are my two favorites for bushcraft , wood chopping . The Trail Master actually got carried more but the Kuk is probably the better heavy chopper .

Great to hear these are to be offered in 3V ! :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
DemkoKnives said:
Lots of good input here , let me try to clarify. Two or three years ago when visiting Taiwan we were discussing improving some of our steel types. A-2 came into discussion, it has long been a favorite of mine for prototyping and making my own personal fixed blades. We were quite surprised when our vendor priced the knives in A-2. We felt it was a good steel that really bridges the gap between common blade material and high end stuff like 3v etc.. So long story short the domestic A-2 in Taiwan never performed as A-2 should. At the same time we have been testing 4034 from Japan. Basically its a stainless spring steel , I think typically German. I'm not sure if Japan "improves" it a little because we reliably reach 57.5 RC. Our theory is a fighting knife can dull but not break , that said it is a good steel for something like the Laredo bowie. However we realize that there is still a demand for the very best . So as we are offering some knives in 4034 we are in the process of making those same knives in 3v. This in no easy task, in fact our vendor has built a custom made blade grinder just to grind our big 3v knives. Also we have not given up on A-2, and it may make an appearance in the future. So as it stands you ,the buyer, will have the opportunity to buy the 4034 or 3v. I think those are pretty fair choices.
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This is very good news in many ways.
I want to contribute a datapoint about "surgical" stainless steels to the discussion. The owner of The Knife Merchant has a couple of videos where he explains to professional chefs how to choose knives. Most Japanese knives use modern good steels like VG10, often run very hard. German knives use simple stainlesses like 4034 or something similar but with a little extra such as Mercer's X50CrMoV15. He mentions the workers in meat processing plants never use the Japanese style knives. They need knives to be razor sharp, and they need to be able to put a razor edge back on in seconds. Here's the kicker. Not only are Vanadium carbide steels hard to sharpen and don't take a fine edge well, their wear resistance at high levels of sharpness is no better than a simple stainless. Yes, in a Catra test VG10 will outperform 4034 because that's a test that goes to butterknife dull. But for meat processing, for example, there is no difference in edge retention.
So it depends on the application. If you keep your knife razor sharp, 4034 might be better. If you just want it quasi-sharp, maybe 3v is better.
 
I am glad to hear this!

Totally down with a Recon Scout in 3V. The two price point/steel type offerings for each model is exactly what I hoped for.
 
A. Demko, Thanks! You made my day with that news. It's good to have you add to these threads. :)

"I want to contribute a datapoint about "surgical" stainless steels to the discussion. The owner of The Knife Merchant has a couple of videos where he explains to professional chefs how to choose knives. Most Japanese knives use modern good steels like VG10, often run very hard. German knives use simple stainlesses like 4034 or something similar but with a little extra such as Mercer's X50CrMoV15. He mentions the workers in meat processing plants never use the Japanese style knives. They need knives to be razor sharp, and they need to be able to put a razor edge back on in seconds. Here's the kicker. Not only are Vanadium carbide steels hard to sharpen and don't take a fine edge well, their wear resistance at high levels of sharpness is no better than a simple stainless. Yes, in a Catra test VG10 will outperform 4034 because that's a test that goes to butterknife dull. But for meat processing, for example, there is no difference in edge retention.
So it depends on the application. If you keep your knife razor sharp, 4034 might be better. If you just want it quasi-sharp, maybe 3v is better."

If you can only get 3V "quasi-sharp" then learn to sharpen properly. Please stop posting incorrect information here though.

Joe
 
DemkoKnives said:
the buyer, will have the opportunity to buy the 4034 or 3v. I think those are pretty fair choices.
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Thank you for the info sir, this is an incredibly important piece of info that's missing from the original and follow up statements. I think making them in 4034 is fine to cater for wider market, as long as hardcore fan still has access to the top of the line version. This would have been received way better if this info was provided earlier.
 
To offer them in a cheaper steel AND a higher grade steel is perfectly acceptable.I can guarantee that those first 3v knives will sell out instantly,just like those 1st 4max scouts,AD10s and AD15s did.I have 1 Busse knife in INFI, and if push came to shove, id sell it to fund a 3v Trailmaster,might even have enough left over to get a 3v recon scout if that comes in 3v as well. Thats what id be willing to do to get one if not both of those knives in 3v.Hope you guys didnt mind the heavy bombardment we gave you but that change from a2 to 4034 was a pretty big pill to swallow when that change was made.Too bad it wasnt announced in the beginning would have saved 20 pages of rederick.
 
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DemkoKnives said:
Lots of good input here , let me try to clarify. Two or three years ago when visiting Taiwan we were discussing improving some of our steel types. A-2 came into discussion, it has long been a favorite of mine for prototyping and making my own personal fixed blades. We were quite surprised when our vendor priced the knives in A-2. We felt it was a good steel that really bridges the gap between common blade material and high end stuff like 3v etc.. So long story short the domestic A-2 in Taiwan never performed as A-2 should. At the same time we have been testing 4034 from Japan. Basically its a stainless spring steel , I think typically German. I'm not sure if Japan "improves" it a little because we reliably reach 57.5 RC. Our theory is a fighting knife can dull but not break , that said it is a good steel for something like the Laredo bowie. However we realize that there is still a demand for the very best . So as we are offering some knives in 4034 we are in the process of making those same knives in 3v. This in no easy task, in fact our vendor has built a custom made blade grinder just to grind our big 3v knives. Also we have not given up on A-2, and it may make an appearance in the future. So as it stands you ,the buyer, will have the opportunity to buy the 4034 or 3v. I think those are pretty fair choices.
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Hey, I agree that’s awesome and pretty fair. I’ll admit I’m still prejudiced against 4034, but if it performs great, I’ll admit I was wrong. Offering those knives in 3V as well is a good move.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
If they were to bring back the leather sheath, I'm sure that would put the price over a C-note. Leather is expensive these days, expensive to make into decent sheaths. I'm sure they won't do a leather sheath, not even the cheapo thin leather sheaths that come with cheap bowies from India. It'll be the usual plastic that dulls knives, "secure-ex", if I recall the name correctly.

If the knife is made in Taiwan, using Japanese 4034 steel, with a secure ex sheath, IMO a reasonable price would be around $80. If made in PRC, then that should cut the price in half.
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With all respect, I think that's insane. There is no way in hell a 4034 Trailmaster would be worth more than $40-$50 bucks regardless of the sheath. Whatever Cold Steel is trying to spin, 4034 is cheap low-grade steel. Period. The Outdoorsman Lite, with a 6" 4034 blade, sells for $20. TWENTY DOLLARS. The Cold Steel Black Bear Bowie, with a 12" blade of 1055 steel, lists for $25 on BladeHQ. Again, that's with a 12" blade. If you want something a bit more upscale, you can get the Boker Magnum Giant Bowie with a 8.1" blade for the low price of only $47. It's quite handsome with a metal pommel, stacked leather handle, leather sheath with a whetstone pocket, and in 440 steel it's certainly no worse than a 4034 Trailmaster.

Again, only $47.

Now myself, I wouldn't personally buy a 4034 Trailmaster at ANY price. I am not saying that to be mean to anyone who buys one and loves it, but a 4034 Trailmaster is just not for me.
 
DemkoKnives said:
Lots of good input here , let me try to clarify. Two or three years ago when visiting Taiwan we were discussing improving some of our steel types. A-2 came into discussion, it has long been a favorite of mine for prototyping and making my own personal fixed blades. We were quite surprised when our vendor priced the knives in A-2. We felt it was a good steel that really bridges the gap between common blade material and high end stuff like 3v etc.. So long story short the domestic A-2 in Taiwan never performed as A-2 should. At the same time we have been testing 4034 from Japan. Basically its a stainless spring steel , I think typically German. I'm not sure if Japan "improves" it a little because we reliably reach 57.5 RC. Our theory is a fighting knife can dull but not break , that said it is a good steel for something like the Laredo bowie. However we realize that there is still a demand for the very best . So as we are offering some knives in 4034 we are in the process of making those same knives in 3v. This in no easy task, in fact our vendor has built a custom made blade grinder just to grind our big 3v knives. Also we have not given up on A-2, and it may make an appearance in the future. So as it stands you ,the buyer, will have the opportunity to buy the 4034 or 3v. I think those are pretty fair choices.
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There is undoubtedly a demand for the very best. But the discussion here isn't about that. This thread is about the upgrade to A2 that your customers spent the last two years waiting for. The point of A2 was that it was a theoretically significant upgrade from O1. This is why people have waited. But instead of the promised A2, we are being offered 4034. 4034 is not a comparable replacement for A2, nor is it a comparable replacement for the older O1. It is probably not even comparable to SK5.

It's cheap sub-budget grade stainless steel, which is why the 4034 Outdoorsman Lite sells for twenty bucks.

You guys can sell $50 Trailmasters and $40 Recon Scouts if you think that's the best course for the company, but personally I think you guys have lost the plot and are seriously damaging your reputation. Make great knives using great steel, knives you can be proud to sell or own, then sell them for a fair price. That's it.
 
Mark Spark said:
This is very good news in many ways.
I want to contribute a datapoint about "surgical" stainless steels to the discussion. The owner of The Knife Merchant has a couple of videos where he explains to professional chefs how to choose knives. Most Japanese knives use modern good steels like VG10, often run very hard. German knives use simple stainlesses like 4034 or something similar but with a little extra such as Mercer's X50CrMoV15. He mentions the workers in meat processing plants never use the Japanese style knives. They need knives to be razor sharp, and they need to be able to put a razor edge back on in seconds. Here's the kicker. Not only are Vanadium carbide steels hard to sharpen and don't take a fine edge well, their wear resistance at high levels of sharpness is no better than a simple stainless. Yes, in a Catra test VG10 will outperform 4034 because that's a test that goes to butterknife dull. But for meat processing, for example, there is no difference in edge retention.
So it depends on the application. If you keep your knife razor sharp, 4034 might be better. If you just want it quasi-sharp, maybe 3v is better.
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Lots of us have 3V knives that are hair popping sharp...

About meat and other stuff, what if you hit a bone or something? With 4034 and similar stainless you'll have a roll or instantly dull part of the blade while steel like 3V can stand up to it, take no damage and still have an edge.
 
And yeah, Lynn just told us CS will use 4034 and why they chose it, plus he told us how good it is in his opinion.

3V versions of those knives were never mentioned until now, and if they were - all this would be a lot easier to swallow and we would understand.
And Cold Steel would spare themself from 20 pages of roast and some threads on General Knife Discussion...
 
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