A2 Steel Update

DemkoKnives said:
We have been planning the 3v thick stuff for a long time and working on the manufacturing of the 8mm stuff for over two years. I think Lynn didn't really want to dip his hand on this one because of so many obstacles especially this year. I have not been watching blade form in a long time . I see and have recommend to Cold Steel that we need to pay more attention here. Thank you all for your patience and input.
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I'm really glad to hear this, and I appreciate you sparing your time to give us those informations.
I'm also kinda glad that we're the first ones to get to know major news.
Now this shows me that Cold Steel does indeed care.
Thread would go a lot different if we got all these informations and reasonable explanation right away, but this is still better than never.

Cold Steel was first "real knife" I ever bought, and it's most available in my country next to Fallkniven which isn't for me, so I'd really hate to see CS go down.
 
goldie said:
" to cash in on the low end of the market" ; theres nothing wrong with doing that; if everything they offered was in a high end exotic steel they would never survive.A budget line is perfectly fine,you have to come out with products to cater to everyone.Spyderco has their byrd line, Kershaw has those cheap clam pack knives.Maybe people will use them like them see they are offered in higher end versions and wind up with one as well.
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I really likes SK-5 Recon Tanto so I wanted to get the 3V one too, but I ended up with Warcraft Tanto at the end.
 
goldie said:
" to cash in on the low end of the market" ; theres nothing wrong with doing that; if everything they offered was in a high end exotic steel they would never survive.A budget line is perfectly fine,you have to come out with products to cater to everyone.Spyderco has their byrd line, Kershaw has those cheap clam pack knives.Maybe people will use them like them see they are offered in higher end versions and wind up with one as well.
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Certainly, I can't tell CS how to run their company. If cashing in on the low end of the market is what they want to do, there's nothing wrong with that from their perspective as a business. To long time fans, it still feels like a punch in the nuts. To go from a good carbon steel ... to a low end stainless ... on their best large bowie knives. Whew!
 
The SRK in sk5 is around 40.00 very affordable for anyone. In 3v its 150-200 thats why there has to be a lower end version of some of these knives. And for 40.00 your getting a really strong indestructable knife. Same w the recon tanto, 45.00 vs 125 for san mai and 150+ for 3v.
 
goldie said:
The SRK in sk5 is around 40.00 very affordable for anyone. In 3v its 150-200 thats why there has to be a lower end version of some of these knives. And for 40.00 your getting a really strong indestructable knife. Same w the recon tanto, 45.00 vs 125 for san mai and 150+ for 3v.
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And that is all great, but SK5 in those knives versus ... 4034 SS in the Trailmaster?
 
^ yeah ,well back in the 90s they had stainless trailmasters in AUS6,and since 3v is on the table,id focus on that now...
 
Boy howdy, this thread has been a roller coaster. I do not have much to add other than that I have found one YouTube review of a CS Crawford in 4034 that seemed to keep an edge through 250 cardboard slices and a few dozen whacks into a piece of lumber (granted, the cuts were not of uniform length nor were they done using the same section of the blade). This does not exactly inspire confidence however it indicates that CS might manage to make workable blades out of the steel. I will withhold further criticism until the new models are released and put to the test.

I am glad to hear that 3V models are in the works and I wholeheartedly look forward to a 3V Recon Scout becoming available. I can understand CS choosing to make multiple versions of some models to appeal to both high and lower ends of the market. This is not a new practice for them and I cannot criticize them for it as long as the correct steel type is clearly marked on the ricasso to prevent confusion. It is still still puzzling why proven steels like SK-5 or 1055-1095 were overlooked for "budget friendly" models and I am curious to see the prices of the new 4034 models. The future releases will certainly be captivating.

Thank you Cold Steel Knives Cold Steel Knives and @DemkoKnives for paying attention to this thread, being responsive, and withstanding 20+ pages of criticism. Is there any way I can convince either of you to open up a WIP thread with pictures once the 3V models come into production?
 
goldie said:
^ yeah ,well back in the 90s they had stainless trailmasters in AUS6,and since 3v is on the table,id focus on that now...
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Sorry to keep harping on this ... but AUS6 is like 440A, no? That's a better steel than 4034, right?

I know Ontario had a stainless bowie for a while, the Helle's Belle was in 440A. And it must have passed Bill Bagwell's testing for him to have allowed the use of his design and name on a 440A blade. It was a fighting knife, not meant for any kind of wood processing. So even that wasn't made of 4034.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
Your guess is as good as mine on San Mai III toughness. Since it's a sandwich steel, a harder stainless surrounded by softer stainless, that really makes it difficult to compare against anything else. Based on your experience though, it seems that it's not anywhere near as tough as A2. And A2 is for sure not as tough as CPM3V, based on the steel charts charpy testing. I have never liked stainless steel in a large knife, a bowie knife.
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deadzonepatrol said:
Your guess is as good as mine on San Mai III toughness. Since it's a sandwich steel, a harder stainless surrounded by softer stainless, that really makes it difficult to compare against anything else. Based on your experience though, it seems that it's not anywhere near as tough as A2. And A2 is for sure not as tough as CPM3V, based on the steel charts charpy testing. I have never liked stainless steel in a large knife, a bowie knife.
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On paper a VG10 edge seems unsuitable for a large chopping knife since toughness is only about 6 ft-lbs. Compare with 25 for SK5/1085 or 15 for A2 or O1, or 35-ish for 3V. The cladding solves the problem of breakage but not edge chipping.
But San Mai has advantages too. Good edge holding, won't rust, polishes and looks great. Just don't hit rocks.
 
All the complaining we did on here,God help Busse if we were over there; to get a knife with no sheath, call up on a thursday night at 9pm to order the knife, if you call too early you go to the back of the line,grab bags with no choice of handle colors or materials; Cold Steel is looking pretty good now !
 
"On paper a VG10 edge seems unsuitable for a large chopping knife since toughness is only about 6 ft-lbs. Compare with 25 for SK5/1085 or 15 for A2 or O1, or 35-ish for 3V. The cladding solves the problem of breakage but not edge chipping."


Mark, be aware that Larrin's results are usually taken at a specific heat treat time/temp and often as not are run fairly hard compared to industry numbers. The results for A2 are one example. The numbers go up to 30 ft lb and even higher depending on time/temp plus tempering for A2. It's known as a pretty tough tool steel. Example are some standard numbers on this website for A2 as well as some other common tool steels. Example:

https://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelA2Knife

I'd guess cold steel would shoot for a different treatment due to the size of the Trailmaster and would have had an rc more like rc 58-59 with a toughness around 30 ft lbs. With the higher wear resistance and corrosion resistance from the chrome carbides in A2 that would have made the A2 Trailmaster not only tougher than the previous versions but also the benefit of the higher wear and corrosion resistance would have made it a true upgrade over O1/SK5/ Carbon V. That is what we were looking for in the new model and why we were disappointed. Wanting a better all around product wouldn't mean we are steel snobs. 3V will be an even bigger upgrade in all 3 attributes but it will come at an even higher cost than A2.

I'll not complain about paying for a 3V version but I still believe they were really on to something with the A2 version.

Joe
 
DemkoKnives said:
At the same time we have been testing 4034 from Japan. Basically its a stainless spring steel , I think typically German. I'm not sure if Japan "improves" it a little because we reliably reach 57.5 RC. Our theory is a fighting knife can dull but not break , that said it is a good steel for something like the Laredo bowie.
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:) This newest info on their 4034 kinda got overshadowed by the 3V joy .

Again , I'm no metallurgist ...but this sounds better than what I'd expect from 4034 normally . :confused:

I'm looking forward to independent test results . :cool::thumbsup:
 
DemkoKnives said:
No not made in china
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Thanks again for joining this thread... the 3v news has all of us excited :D

One point I noticed is LT said ... this was Japan 4034 ... I found the Japan spec for it (I believe) -> it's a bit better than we've heard in this thread http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/JUS/c.4175.shtml

Seems to be 0.4-0.5% carbon, around 14% chrome, 1% Mn and around 0.85% Si

its definitely better than 3cr13 (which is typically the true low end (like the new low end kershaws & schrade's standard steel))

it is (imho) a slightly worse rendition of 420hc... (the lack of V for any grain refinement hurts)
if they do get it to 0.5% carbon instead of the 0.4% low end, it should be similar to 4116 steel (which is the #1 mass produced kitchen knife steel, at least for Europe)

it should be pretty tough & hold up well to general youtube abuse, but I expect after tempering they're only going to get around 56 hrc or 57 if they're lucky


fwiw, here is my humble suggestion for the price breakdown

4034 tm = $30 (the only stainless version - mass market perfect)
52100 tm = $60 (the thrift seeking quality benchmark) (you sell the 36mg for under $40 so this should be feasible)
3v tm = $120 (you'll sell a lot of these -> to bf members ... probably a few thousand?)

extra kudos if you manage to pull off any of the upgraded steels this year :)
 
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deadzonepatrol said:
It could very well be that all of our complaining on this thread made them decide to do the 3V versions. Don't you think it's strange that they would suddenly announce this info now, after 20 pages of complaining? If they had really intended to do this from the start, why didn't Lynn Thompson announce it in his original letter, the first post in this thread?

Don't get me wrong, it's great news. I'm mighty glad Andrew Demko said that they'll be making 3V versions of all the 8mm thick knives.
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It’s either they changed their mind to deal with the blow back or Demko is just much better at communicating.
Regardless, CS could use more Demko and less Lynn. IMO.
 
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