Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[RedLynx]

Reason, logic, and common sense! I was holding back because I just called for some calm. You said it better than I could have (read nicer). If joking is to continue to happen in this thread it should be to lighten the mood, not thicken it, and divide us further.

Thanks, my friend.

I completely understand the hot button side of this issue, as some knife makers (and a host of others) make their living, or some part of it, using this commodity. As I don't, it's probably easier for me to take the position that I take. But to ignore those on the forum who do use it, would I think be wrong as well, so I try to empathize (and I believe these laws don't prohibit simple ownership of already acquired items, which is nice). But I also wouldn't want makers like Mr. Knapp or others to take a significant hit on their livelihoods either. I even sympathize with Rappy in that for him, ivory has something bone doesn't. To me, bone would be a very nice, acceptable substitute, so I cannot claim to fully understand his position (I've never held or owned a knife with ivory).

I do think we need to lighten the mood a little bit. The vegans aren't after us, or even the vegetarians (some of my best friends fall into these categories and they don't condemn me for enjoying meat, they know I care about animals).

No matter where we fall on these laws, I think all of us here can agree we don't want elephants getting poached. Especially as so many are found with only tusks removed?! What a waste!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Mark, I want to thank you for being a voice in the wilderness here. We haven't always agreed about the letter of the law on Ivory regulations, but this is a real issue we all have to deal with now.

I told everyone a year ago when they were all yelling, "Obama is banning ivory" that it was hysteria and hype. I was right then, but totally agree that the people who are behind these legal maneuvers are not using science or real data to defend their claims. What is really worrisome is that the same idiots who have screwed up the government finances and legal situation in partisan argument are the ones who will probably have the last word on this.

Folks, write, or call your representatives and tell them how you feel about this. An email may be ignored, but some human will have to read a letter or answer a phone.
Impress them that a ban on 20,000 year old mammoth ivory would be as silly as a law requiring all major city retail businesses to stop having mule drawn delivery wagons parked in the alleyways. It would solve a problem that does not exist....and create one that isn't a problem now.

 

[akivory]

I feel blessed to have stumpled onto a career that involves the use and trade in this ancient material. I live in a community where tusks and bones are found every year when dirt and gravel are moved. It gives me satisfaction to see something when it comes out of the ground looks like a old tree branch turned into a beautiful carving, jewelery or knife handle.
I am aware only a very small percentage of the population will ever be able to afford or want a knife or one of my sculptures. The elephant ivory laws of the 90s launched my trade in mammoth.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Mark,

I never asked you about "poached" anything. I asked whether you have or had any "ivory that has contributed to the reduction in elephant populations in the last century". You then inserted the word "poached" and talked about walruses. Are Asian elephants walruses or mammoths? Have you never owned any modern African ivory?

Please try to answer the question without misquoting me.


And are you really still insisting that there are no Western influences in China, the country that went from the largest Communist population on earth to the largest capitalist country in a little over a decade? What sort of study would you like to see? Number of Hollywood films translated? Did you know that China is the US's third largest export market? Did you know that English is the most studied foreign language?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2012/02/17/china-is-americas-biggest-opportunity/


China's population is growing increasingly Westernized. That isn't just a love of our crappy fast food and fashion, the cultural shift is rampant and ongoing. What's going on now is analogous to what happened to Japanese culture after WWII. Language, goods and media consumption don't happen in a vacuum - the ideology and morality go along with it.

Let's demonstrate that morality.



As for mammoths, if Joe Blow can't tell mammoth from elephant in a finished product - what's the difference? It just becomes "ivory" at that point, with all the same market influences as the rest of the ivory.

And walruses have already been hunted to near extinction several times in the past. Is that really a road to go down?

I have answered your question several times. I added the word poached because, some people think that if I deal in ancient walrus ivory I am contributing to the demise of elephants in Africa. I contend that the ivory I have dealt with has not contributed to that demise, you may think otherwise. Like I said, I own one piece of pre-act Asian elephant ivory, I have never owned any other elephant ivory. When I said this the first time, you came back with this "That makes all the ivory that's passed through your hands of "legally" killed elephants blood free and righteous, right? Kumbaya" Do you see the problem there? It seems to me, you have misquoted me.

I have showed you a study that says when we restricted the use of ivory in the US the last it had no affect on elephant populations in Africa, can you show me one that says otherwise?

You are making some pretty big assumptions about the changes in China, I'm not sure how you can link any of those changes to influences from the U.S. Please explain it to me. I understand there have been changes, I just don't know how we can assume they were influenced by US. Burgers I understand.

If you look on my web site you will see many pieces of mammoth ivory, it is very easy to tell the difference between that and elephant ivory. What I am trying to tell you is that it is not that hard to tell. Certainly, an enforcement agency should be able to tell. There is lots of information on the internet about it.

Pacific walrus have never been hunted to near extinction, and they are not now near extinction. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Would you show me?

 

[stuffgeek]

Mark,


And are you really still insisting that there are no Western influences in China, the country that went from the largest Communist population on earth to the largest capitalist country in a little over a decade?

Uh, they still have the largest communist population - now some in China are just rich communists.

 

[RedLynx]

Uh, they still have the largest communist population - now some in China are just rich communists.

This comment was rather surprising to me as well, given my recent research into the country's current state.

 

[Mark Knapp]

"If China sees that the West thinks ivory is barbarous, it will become barbarous in China."
hmm, wearing fur in the US has not been PC for decades now, so who are the largest markets for fur? Oh yeah Russia and China.
The US has banned trade in new ivory for decades. And where is the largest market for ivory? China
Japan is actually a good example to consider - the US, and the entire rest of the world except Norway, has considered whaling morally reprehensible for decades, but who keeps doing it vigorously and unapologetically? Japan

Culture is not so malleable as the self-righteous like to presume when it fits their agenda (whether in this instance, or "Iraqis will greet us as liberators," etc)
I like mammoth ivory on knives and really object to the govt prohibiting behavior "on principle" when it will have no effect on the actual problem, which is protecting live wild elephants. There are better ways to do that. However I do appreciate craytab's point that - despite this issue being important to many knife owners and makers - it may not be a critical "knife" issue and may in fact distract from effective lobbying on more critical knife issues.

This is a good point, thanks for making it.

 

[Mark Knapp]

This comment was rather surprising to me as well, given my recent research into the country's current state.

Please tell us about your research.

 

[leghog]

What I do when I see threads that don't interest me is, I move on. Don't waist your time here.

Why assume it doesn't interest me? Just because I disagree with you,? Many here don't agree.

 

[RedLynx]

Please tell us about your research.

I don't have links to figures and stats to hand just now, but if you're interested I have no doubt a search will provide you with a wealth of data to back up my statements, or I can try to find some of the articles for everyone later. So I'll preface this by saying I don't have "linked proof" just at this moment.

That said, it's true that some of China's elite are very wealthy, though no less communistic, whether by their own design or that of the state.

One of the most striking features of modern China today is what are dubbed the "ghost cities." Huge areas of land converted into fairly nice, modern day apartment complexes, as well as malls, restaurants and stores. All built on the assumption that international business (U.S. food chains, for example, among other things) would flock to these new Chinese Meccas and thus bring wealth and growth with them. But it never happened--or at least, it hasn't yet, in the years since completion of these projects. Apartments and businesses looking like new stand unused, while the bricklayers who made the foundations for those empty places cannot, of course, afford to live there, and must be content with their huts or whatever other housing is available to them. This for me is one of the more striking issues facing modern China and its denizens.

Another (and this may have changed recently, it's been some time since my research on this topic) are the heavy restrictions placed on stocks and trades internationally. Most brokers and business owners in China are prohibited from trading stocks or making investments in international markets, and are instead obligated to trade only within the Chinese economy, for the benefit of China (though not necessarily for their own benefit). Interesting stuff.

Please note this isn't directly related to the ivory issue, just an answer to supply some info as to why a comment like "China has become one of the largest capitalist societies in the last decade" are very surprising to me.

Further, the above is not a condemnation of Chinese people, particularly its working class, for whom I feel great sympathy. Nor is it an indictment of Chinese manufacturing in general or knife manufacturing in particular. Just want to be clear to everyone. Thanks.

 

[gthouse]

Thank you Mark Knapp. I may be late to this thread but you know how I feel. Almost all those who do not understand ancient ivory have such a closed mind that they can't seem to comprehend the words they read. I am no expert but I can tell the difference between elephant, mammoth, and walrus. I am sure every wildlife expert could also if they took the time to look.
Save the elephant. But try to educate yourself to the facts.
Keep up the good work Mark. It is appreciated. Gary

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Holy crap, I had to work today and missed this sh..!

Well, while I understand people's disappointment in mammoth ivory getting thrown into the ban, I am glad to see so many people recognize the bigger picture of how little an inconvenience this ban is to the vast majority of people to help continue the already diminished population of an entire species.

OK, gotta get to readin the rest o this!

 

[Mark Knapp]

Why assume it doesn't interest me? Just because I disagree with you,? Many here don't agree.

Didn't you say the thread did not belong here? It may have been someone else with the idea that this thread is about ivory and not knives. Some of those comments sounded like the poster did not think it belonged here. That's why I assumed it didn't interest you, I stand corrected.

I know for a fact that Doug Ritter has no particular interest in ivory, the only reason, I can see, that he would make these posts because it's important to some knife makers and collectors, not to further a pro-ivory ideology, he has none that I can see.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I don't have links to figures and stats to hand just now, but if you're interested I have no doubt a search will provide you with a wealth of data to back up my statements, or I can try to find some of the articles for everyone later. So I'll preface this by saying I don't have "linked proof" just at this moment.

That said, it's true that some of China's elite are very wealthy, though no less communistic, whether by their own design or that of the state.

One of the most striking features of modern China today is what are dubbed the "ghost cities." Huge areas of land converted into fairly nice, modern day apartment complexes, as well as malls, restaurants and stores. All built on the assumption that international business (U.S. food chains, for example, among other things) would flock to these new Chinese Meccas and thus bring wealth and growth with them. But it never happened--or at least, it hasn't yet, in the years since completion of these projects. Apartments and businesses looking like new stand unused, while the bricklayers who made the foundations for those empty places cannot, of course, afford to live there, and must be content with their huts or whatever other housing is available to them. This for me is one of the more striking issues facing modern China and its denizens.

Another (and this may have changed recently, it's been some time since my research on this topic) are the heavy restrictions placed on stocks and trades internationally. Most brokers and business owners in China are prohibited from trading stocks or making investments in international markets, and are instead obligated to trade only within the Chinese economy, for the benefit of China (though not necessarily for their own benefit). Interesting stuff.

Please note this isn't directly related to the ivory issue, just an answer to supply some info as to why a comment like "China has become one of the largest capitalist societies in the last decade" are very surprising to me.

Further, the above is not a condemnation of Chinese people, particularly its working class, for whom I feel great sympathy. Nor is it an indictment of Chinese manufacturing in general or knife manufacturing in particular. Just want to be clear to everyone. Thanks.

Thank you very much, my understanding is/was much the same as yours, so the remark that RX made also caught me off guard.

It's a pleasure to see you here, it is obvious to me that you put a lot of thought into the things you say. I do not have to agree with everyone, some of my closest friends are those that I disagree with on many things but are able to have well informed discussions with.

I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the "supply and demand" argument I made in the last page or two. I'm sorry I don't have time to repeat it again here (and have to urge you to go back to find it yourself), I am trying to keep customers happy and run a business while I do this. I get nasty looks from my wife if I spend to much time here instead of getting my work done.

 

[RedLynx]

Thank you very much, my understanding is/was much the same as yours, so the remark that RX made also caught me off guard.

It's a pleasure to see you here, it is obvious to me that you put a lot of thought into the things you say. I do not have to agree with everyone, some of my closest friends are those that I disagree with on many things but are able to have well informed discussions with.

I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the "supply and demand" argument I made in the last page or two. I'm sorry I don't have time to repeat it again here (and have to send you back to find it yourself), I am trying to keep customers happy and run a business while I do this. I get nasty looks from my wife if I spend to much time here instead of getting my work done.

Thanks Mark,

I'll take a look at the last couple of pages to refresh my memory and hopefully get a response in later tonight or sometime tomorrow, I'll be away visiting my sister and brother in law this evening.

Interestingly, most of my close friends have several views that are often wildly different from my own. But it's okay. They're good people and we get on very well and I wouldn't trade them.

I believe the key is to remember that often, people who hold convictions different from our own feel strongly about them for various reasons that are very important to them. Few of us seem to have a certain position simply for an arbitrary reason. My friends may disagree with me, but I know that they do it because they believe strongly that what they believe is something they, as people, should believe and follow. So do I. I think sometimes we forget that people who might disagree with us rarely do it "just because." Our life experiences shape our paths in life.

 

[craytab]

Thank you Mark Knapp. I may be late to this thread but you know how I feel. Almost all those who do not understand ancient ivory have such a closed mind that they can't seem to comprehend the words they read. I am no expert but I can tell the difference between elephant, mammoth, and walrus. I am sure every wildlife expert could also if they took the time to look.
Save the elephant. But try to educate yourself to the facts.
Keep up the good work Mark. It is appreciated. Gary

We need to be careful not to insult the "comprehension" of those in this discussion. It does nothing to further it.

I am less than an expert. I can't tell the difference between Ivory, bone or white wood (is there such a thing?). But I have no need to. I prefer certain types of handles on my knives, none of which is any type of bone or wood. Just doesn't make sense to me, but to each their own. I don't know the solution to the problem. IE: Stopping Elephants being slaughtered while also making sure Humans who participate the right way in Ivory craft not being persecuted. What I do know is that we need a more level headed approach.

Didn't you say the thread did not belong here? It may have been someone else with the idea that this thread is about ivory and not knives. Some of those comments were that sounded like the poster did not think it belonged here. That is why I assumed it didn't interest you, I stand corrected.

I know for a fact that Doug Ritter has no particular interest in ivory, the only reason, I can see, that he would make these posts because it's important to some knife makers and collectors, not to further a pro-ivory ideology, he has none that I can see.

What I also know is that I don't want Elephants to die so folks can have ivory handled knives, and that is what I fear the involvement of Knife Rights with this issue will portray other knife rights efforts as....


Further, I also know that I want Knife Rights to fight for the bladed end of my tool and not the handle.

 

[RedLynx]

What I also know is that I don't want Elephants to die so folks can have ivory handled knives, and that is what I fear the involvement of Knife Rights with this issue will portray other knife rights efforts as....

Sadly, I feel it's likely that the average person, who becomes aware of this issue, is likely to see this as "those evil knifemakers/owners don't care about elephants." Which of course isn't true at all, and not an insult to the average person either... just an observation on how these things usually seem to go, media/news-wise.

 

[leghog]

Didn't you say the thread did not belong here?

No. I said this discussion as well as the previous ones really have nothing to do with knives or knife laws.

It may have been someone else with the idea that this thread is about ivory and not knives. Some of those comments sounded like the poster did not think it belonged here. That's why I assumed it didn't interest you, I stand corrected.

I said it but said nothing about whether or not the thread belongs here. If I thought it didn't belong I'd have not posted in it.

I know for a fact that Doug Ritter has no particular interest in ivory, the only reason, I can see, that he would make these posts because it's important to some knife makers and collectors, not to further a pro-ivory ideology, he has none that I can see.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

I also know that I want Knife Rights to fight for the bladed end of my tool and not the handle.

Love this perspective.

This issue, in fact, really has nothing to do with knives. I do hope those who live off of the trade of mammoth ivory (how many people actually DO make most of their living from mammoth ivory?) can be advocated for and somehow left alone in this though.

 

[RedLynx]

Love this perspective.

This issue, in fact, really has nothing to do with knives. I do hope those who live off of the trade of mammoth ivory (how many people actually DO make most of their living from mammoth ivory?) can be advocated for and somehow left alone in this though.

I believe it is still being found in what are (to a layman with no practical knowledge on mammoth ivory) seemingly large quantities in places such as Alaska. How much of that is used by some of the local makers as most of or even the entirety of their product line, I don't know.