Any Pop's ProCut Dialogue?

DeadPineKnives said:
I promise that I'm not trying to be rude with my following statements, which I feel is necessary to say because I'm often misinterpreted.

To me it seems like faulty steel, plain and simple.

We see that ProCut performs quite well for other makers, and I'm not deeply educated on the matter but I assume that it has been tested successfully with both industrial and workshop heat treats. From what I understand, Crag the Brewer Crag the Brewer has also made successful knives from ProCut in different stock thicknesses, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm assuming other makers have also successfully used ProCut in 3/16" stock, the same gauge Crag is having issues with, right?

And obviously sheared edges have never been an issue for me or most other knife makers, and I have never had a piece of steel to flake apart like a Pilsbury biscuit. Even if the sheared edges present some degree of an issue, I could see 1/8" of material in extreme cases, but not flaking on a false edge nearly 1" in from the sheared edge.

So, ruling out all of these variables, the only logical answer, to me, is that Crag has received bars of steel that are faulty. My best guess is that whatever sheet these bars were sheared from, something went wrong during the rolling process. To me, that would fall upon whoever processed the melts for Pops, who obviously need tighter QC, but I also think that since ProCut is a product created for and sold exclusively by Pops, that it would be good of them to make things square with Crag.

That's my opinion on the matter, and how I see it, but if I'm found to be wrong I'll gladly admit it.
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The presence of cracking being around the perimeter of the blades most likely indicates an issue that occurred after steel production rather than during it. It’s not a coincidence that it just happens to be located there. It could be that the shearing was not the source but instead something that happened during heat treating, etc. My testing showed the heat treatment was good in terms of properties but wouldn’t necessarily show intermittent cracking. It could be possible we can figure out definitively what the issue was though I admit I’m not that excited about dragging out this thread for months.

With that being said, I agree that if the problem is seen by someone else it should be escalated to the steel manufacturer. They would have the facilities to investigate things with SEM, etc and should have a quality department for this kind of thing.

I’m sure Pops is handling things on the customer service side to help Crag the Brewer out.
 
Larrin said:
The presence of cracking being around the perimeter of the blades most likely indicates an issue that occurred after steel production rather than during it. It’s not a coincidence that it just happens to be located there. It could be that the shearing was not the source but instead something that happened during heat treating, etc. My testing showed the heat treatment was good in terms of properties but wouldn’t necessarily show intermittent cracking. It could be possible we can figure out definitively what the issue was though I admit I’m not that excited about dragging out this thread for months.

With that being said, I agree that if the problem is seen by someone else it should be escalated to the steel manufacturer. They would have the facilities to investigate things with SEM, etc and should have a quality department for this kind of thing.

I’m sure Pops is handling things on the customer service side to help Crag the Brewer out.
Click to expand...

I agree it's no coincidence; as we all know, metallurgy is an exact science. If the issue isn't with the production of the steel or with the process of shearing it into strips, then that leaves only two variables: the maker and the heat treater.

Crag has more than proven himself as a competent and skilled maker, who is more than capable of eliminating stress risers that could lead to fractures in heat treat, so to me that leaves only BOS as the remaining variable.

That also gets a little dicey, as BOS is a long-standing and reputable heat treat service that heat treats for Buck and even did work for Bob Loveless. I assume they also followed the recommended heat treat protocol that Pops sends out with every one of their packages now.

Procut is a very new steel, of course, so to me this leaves two variables... either BOS has not yet dialed in a specific heat treat protocol for ProCut which works for them, or ProCut has some kinks that have not yet been worked out, as with any new steel grade that hasn't been around long.

And in response to you saying you don't want this thread to drag on, I respectfully disagree and believe it should go on as long as it takes for us to all reach a scientific conclusion as to what the cause of this issue is, so that it can be solved and it never happens to anyone again.

Please take me with a grain of salt, as I'm hardly educated in these matters, and likewise please don't take me as rude, as I think of your work quite highly and would not question your knowledge on the topic of blade steel, and I would hate to make you feel otherwise. It's just that something isn't right here, and I think we should all work together as a team to pinpoint the issue and solve it.

Again, just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.
 
Update: per Larrin's suggestion, I added another temper in our home oven, set to 450F. For 2 hours. Idk how accurate home ovens are.

It was getting late, I only did it once.

On the field knife that I broke the tip off yesterday, I reground a sheepfoot tip.

Today, we had freezing rain and snow. I didn't check the outside temps, but it's cold, below freezing, feels like the teens.

The log from the other day is frozen.
I stabbed, and aggressively "tip checked" it into the frozen wood. Maybe 50-70 times. Good no breaks.

I chopped, and battoned for maybe 10 mins.
Much better.
No edge damage.


The edges are a little thick for me, I will thin down to .015" and continue testing.
 
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DeadPineKnives said:
I agree it's no coincidence; as we all know, metallurgy is an exact science. If the issue isn't with the production of the steel or with the process of shearing it into strips, then that leaves only two variables: the maker and the heat treater.

Crag has more than proven himself as a competent and skilled maker, who is more than capable of eliminating stress risers that could lead to fractures in heat treat, so to me that leaves only BOS as the remaining variable.

That also gets a little dicey, as BOS is a long-standing and reputable heat treat service that heat treats for Buck and even did work for Bob Loveless. I assume they also followed the recommended heat treat protocol that Pops sends out with every one of their packages now.

Procut is a very new steel, of course, so to me this leaves two variables... either BOS has not yet dialed in a specific heat treat protocol for ProCut which works for them, or ProCut has some kinks that have not yet been worked out, as with any new steel grade that hasn't been around long.

And in response to you saying you don't want this thread to drag on, I respectfully disagree and believe it should go on as long as it takes for us to all reach a scientific conclusion as to what the cause of this issue is, so that it can be solved and it never happens to anyone again.

Please take me with a grain of salt, as I'm hardly educated in these matters, and likewise please don't take me as rude, as I think of your work quite highly and would not question your knowledge on the topic of blade steel, and I would hate to make you feel otherwise. It's just that something isn't right here, and I think we should all work together as a team to pinpoint the issue and solve it.

Again, just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.
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Just curious, do you make knives? If so, how long have you been making knives?

Hoss
 
DeadPineKnives said:
I agree it's no coincidence; as we all know, metallurgy is an exact science. If the issue isn't with the production of the steel or with the process of shearing it into strips, then that leaves only two variables: the maker and the heat treater.

Crag has more than proven himself as a competent and skilled maker, who is more than capable of eliminating stress risers that could lead to fractures in heat treat, so to me that leaves only BOS as the remaining variable.

That also gets a little dicey, as BOS is a long-standing and reputable heat treat service that heat treats for Buck and even did work for Bob Loveless. I assume they also followed the recommended heat treat protocol that Pops sends out with every one of their packages now.

Procut is a very new steel, of course, so to me this leaves two variables... either BOS has not yet dialed in a specific heat treat protocol for ProCut which works for them, or ProCut has some kinks that have not yet been worked out, as with any new steel grade that hasn't been around long.

And in response to you saying you don't want this thread to drag on, I respectfully disagree and believe it should go on as long as it takes for us to all reach a scientific conclusion as to what the cause of this issue is, so that it can be solved and it never happens to anyone again.

Please take me with a grain of salt, as I'm hardly educated in these matters, and likewise please don't take me as rude, as I think of your work quite highly and would not question your knowledge on the topic of blade steel, and I would hate to make you feel otherwise. It's just that something isn't right here, and I think we should all work together as a team to pinpoint the issue and solve it.

Again, just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.
Click to expand...

Idk if we will 100% know? It might be "a perfect storm"?

(My opinions)
Everything about this steel is new. If you've watched/read about steels released over recent history, there always are some little growing pains. I'm not faulting anybody. I'm glad people out there are taking efforts to come up with these steels for Us!

I Really want to Love this one!
I use this kind of steel pretty regularly.

I feel it's thickness related. Somewhat. That might be shear related, more force required, idk?
The thinnest stock didn't flake apart for me.

I Did break that one Muk. Maybe the HRC needs to come down some. I know I'm always going to be an anomaly. I like Very Hard steels, ground Very thin. I ground that Muk as if it was AEB-L. And I run it pretty hard. That break could have been on Me? I know all steels can't handle what AEB-L does. It's my job to figure out if it works with my designs.

All makers Should be breaking knives. You learn A lot that way ....haha.

Something else that could be on me.
Yes, I try to make the most of the steel strip.
Maybe this steel type needs more distance away from the sheared edge? More than 1/4"? Maybe.

Something else from my end. Normally I clean up my profiles a little better. I try to file my edges before heat treat, making them smoother. I must not have with these.... hurried?
When I looked at Larrin's close up pictures, mine look bad. I'm guessing? They are between 80-120 grit? You can definitely see a bunch of scratch lines. I'm pretty sure the blue we see is my blue marking compound dye. I use Wolf. It's Way better than Dykem layout fluid. Coats more evenly..... Anyhow that scratch pattern, added to being close, on thick material, under unknown manufacturing (Buderus?) Bos first time treatment....... Maybe perfect storm?

Larrin said his samples were heat treated acceptably. And He said the metal is correct.
Somehow it's a process issue. Perfect storm?

Earlier, Joey did say he would make it right with me with the steel, and he said that he really wants me to like this steel. He said that he would even heat treat the steel himself. :D.

If any of that happens, I'm going to make the Same type of knives, maybe a big Chopper for chopping frozen logs? We have a couple months of Cold still.

Made as I normally would. I'll maybe be conscious of my profiles, polishing them some more.from now on.

I'll keep everyone posted. Maybe I should start a YouTuber channel..... Larrin, if you need any more real world testing with your new, upcoming steel??? Haha.... ;)
 
DevinT said:
Just curious, do you make knives? If so, how long have you been making knives?

Hoss
Click to expand...

I've been making knives since early 2021, for whatever that's worth. :)

I don't want to seem like a blowhard or as if I'm talking about things I know nothing about, so I apologize if it seems that way. I'm just putting out ideas because I feel Crag's pain and would love to see this resolved.
 
Crag the Brewer said:
Idk if we will 100% know? It might be "a perfect storm"?

(My opinions)
Everything about this steel is new. If you've watched/read about steels released over recent history, there always are some little growing pains. I'm not faulting anybody. I'm glad people out there are taking efforts to come up with these steels for Us!

I Really want to Love this one!
I use this kind of steel pretty regularly.

I feel it's thickness related. Somewhat. That might be shear related, more force required, idk?
The thinnest stock didn't flake apart for me.

I Did break that one Muk. Maybe the HRC needs to come down some. I know I'm always going to be an anomaly. I like Very Hard steels, ground Very thin. I ground that Muk as if it was AEB-L. And I run it pretty hard. That break could have been on Me? I know all steels can't handle what AEB-L does. It's my job to figure out if it works with my designs.

All makers Should be breaking knives. You learn A lot that way ....haha.

Something else that could be on me.
Yes, I try to make the most of the steel strip.
Maybe this steel type needs more distance away from the sheared edge? More than 1/4"? Maybe.

Something else from my end. Normally I clean up my profiles a little better. I try to file my edges before heat treat, making them smoother. I must not have with these.... hurried?
When I looked at Larrin's close up pictures, mine look bad. I'm guessing? They are between 80-120 grit? You can definitely see a bunch of scratch lines. I'm pretty sure the blue we see is my blue marking compound dye. I use Wolf. It's Way better than Dykem layout fluid. Coats more evenly..... Anyhow that scratch pattern, added to being close, on thick material, under unknown manufacturing (Buderus?) Bos first time treatment....... Maybe perfect storm?

Larrin said his samples were heat treated acceptably. And He said the metal is correct.
Somehow it's a process issue. Perfect storm?

Earlier, Joey did say he would make it right with me with the steel, and he said that he really wants me to like this steel. He said that he would even heat treat the steel himself. :D.

If any of that happens, I'm going to make the Same type of knives, maybe a big Chopper for chopping frozen logs? We have a couple months of Cold still.

Made as I normally would. I'll maybe be conscious of my profiles, polishing them some more.from now on.

I'll keep everyone posted. Maybe I should start a YouTuber channel..... Larrin, if you need any more real world testing with your new, upcoming steel??? Haha.... ;)
Click to expand...

Whenever I have trouble I rule out as many variables as I can!
 
I’m pretty sure I know what’s going on with this, I think you’ll be surprised at what it is.

I’ll report my findings after some testing.

It’s not the steel or the steel producer.

It’s not the heat treater or the heat treatment.

It’s not the knife maker or his methods.

Any guesses?

Edit: it’s not caused by the shearing either

Hoss
 
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Being new to knifemakng and metallurgy, this may be a totally asinine guess but here my guess Hoss:

Could the bar of steel been cut "cross grain"? I don't know if certain metals have a "grain" when rolled or processed. But it seems like the flaking is similar to working with cross grain wood.
 
J Lensmire said:
Being new to knifemakng and metallurgy, this may be a totally asinine guess but here my guess Hoss:

Could the bar of steel been cut "cross grain"? I don't know if certain metals have a "grain" when rolled or processed. But it seems like the flaking is similar to working with cross grain wood.
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Good guess but not what I think is happening here.

This material is sheared in line with the rolling direction.

Hoss
 
Could temperature fluctuations have these effects on the steel as it's being rolled out, like not being cooled at the proper rate?
 
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