Any Pop's ProCut Dialogue?

[DanF]

When this came out there was a thread here with a variety of makers trying the new steel. THAT seemed to show good results, but I don’t know if all thicknesses available were used by the various makers? I had very good results with the 1/8”-ish blank, and am holding off on the thicker stuff until we hear something definitive. A puzzle for sure.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Looking forward to seeing how this all plays out, and I hope you get to the bottom of it! When I have problems like this, the answer tends to be a stupid little thing I missed.

Please don't think I'm trying to be "that guy" because I'm not, but threads like this are why I tend to be a little wary of the latest developments in knife steel technology... I'm really hoping that your worries and mine are soon set at ease, as I'd really love to love Procut and maybe try some for myself.

Here are my questions, which I hope will contribute something of value...

Are you grinding bevels before or after heat treat? If before, are you noticing any issues with delamination then?

Have you broken any heat treated blanks to check the grain structure?

Could you send a blank to someone to be hardness tested to check behind BOS?

Has anyone sent ProCut to Peters yet?

Just hoping to add some more potential perspectives so that we can hopefully solve this mystery that much sooner!

I grind all bevels post heat, idk how they respond before. I did try to keep my profiles fairly nice and smooth. I hope. Honestly, it's a little intimidating having everyone scrutinizing my work? Haha. ;/

Bos, Joey from Pop's, and Larrin all have samples. Larrin just asked for more. I'm sure they are digging pretty deep. All three are putting good effort in this.

I believe Joey and Larrin have broken samples for inspection.
Not sure yet if Paul from Bos broke mine?

I've been asked a bunch of questions from everyone, but I still don't have any leads.
All Larrin said was that he's still studying the properties of my blanks. I'm not sure exactly what types of testing he is doing?

 

[Crag the Brewer]

When this came out there was a thread here with a variety of makers trying the new steel. THAT seemed to show good results, but I don’t know if all thicknesses available were used by the various makers? I had very good results with the 1/8”-ish blank, and am holding off on the thicker stuff until we hear something definitive. A puzzle for sure.

I've talked with a good number of people who love the thinnest stock.

 

[DeadPineKnives]

I grind all bevels post heat, idk how they respond before. I did try to keep my profiles fairly nice and smooth. I hope. Honestly, it's a little intimidating having everyone scrutinizing my work? Haha. ;/

Bos, Joey from Pop's, and Larrin all have samples. Larrin just asked for more. I'm sure they are digging pretty deep. All three are putting good effort in this.

I believe Joey and Larrin have broken samples for inspection.
Not sure yet if Paul from Bos broke mine?

I've been asked a bunch of questions from everyone, but I still don't have any leads.
All Larrin said was that he's still studying the properties of my blanks. I'm not sure exactly what types of testing he is doing?

This is very odd.

My theory is that maybe BOS neglected to run a normalizing or stress relieving cycle if some kind?

How would you feel about sending a few blades to Peters for an extra data point?

 

[Crag the Brewer]

This is very odd.

My theory is that maybe BOS neglected to run a normalizing or stress relieving cycle if some kind?

How would you feel about sending a few blades to Peters for an extra data point?

I don't think That's a good idea.

Who would be better than Larrin to be looking into this? Nobody is going to know more about this steel than him. I'm fortunate enough to get his cooperation with looking at this...
I fully trust his integrity. He's the man.
Thanks.

 

[DeadPineKnives]

I don't think That's a good idea.

Who would be better than Larrin to be looking into this? Nobody is going to know more about this steel than him. I'm fortunate enough to get his cooperation with looking at this...
I fully trust his integrity. He's the man.
Thanks.

Oh no, I mean for heat treat just to see if it turns out differently.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Hey,

Ive made and sold 50+ knives with procut and had very very consistent results. Phenomenal edge retention and edge stability. 1550/cryo/300 comes to 66.5-67 every time, and for prybars (ive made 60 or so) 1700/cryo/ 400 comes to 61.5 every time. Just my guess, but delam and cracking comes from uneven temps when quenching not anything from the mill. My guess is they overheated the outside of the steel (probably using a forge) and didn't properly soak the steel and that caused the delam and cracking. Also why they poked it 20 times to get a hardness reading, they were probably getting numbers all over the place which is really unprofessional. Thats them trying to find one poke with a number that was acceptable so they could say it made spec. They knew something was wrong from the first 4 pokes, either they still have decarb or its under hardened.

Update:
A few comments and questions about Bos I'll try to address.
-Yes this was Bos's first Procut order.
-I did send Pops instruction sheet.
-Paul said he had questions about it, but followed the instructions.
-Paul runs stainless and high alloy, air hardened steels though their vacuum furnaces. He runs steels like this through laboratory grade ovens, limited to 12" Blade lengths.
-Quench in Parks 50
-cryo according to Pops instructions.

-the increase of inspection dimples was He said they checked at every stage. Especially because this was first batch.
When I was talking to him he seemed like he took good notes, and was well documented with My blades. He did them.
I later gave Larrin, Pauls personal number. Larrin tried calling right before Christmas, but didn't get in touch yet. I'll try as well but with all the holidays Idk What people's schedule is?

Comments.
Larrin and I have messaged some. He asked me some questions.
I saw a preliminary write up he's done with his findings.
It's not as clear cut as I figured it would be.
Idk IF he is going public with the information (on his website) or if the testing was done privately for Pop's?
So I'll keep What I know out of it, & not posted here yet, unless Larrin posts.
I'm not sure for who's eyes it was meant for.

I cant/won't speak for him. Obviously I wouldn't understand it to the levels he does.
I'm thinking he has done lots of different tests, and more than what he showed me. Perhaps.

-It sounds like he has an understanding of What might be happening.
Imo, it's not as clear as the How part works into the equation?
I had a couple questions he is going to pursue. Look into.

I need to see if Paul still has the test pieces I sent him.
Larrin wanted more samples. I have a couple more also to send to him.

Long story short.......still digging, collecting data.

 

[Larrin]

Update:
A few comments and questions about Bos I'll try to address.
-Yes this was Bos's first Procut order.
-I did send Pops instruction sheet.
-Paul said he had questions about it, but followed the instructions.
-Paul runs stainless and high alloy, air hardened steels though their vacuum furnaces. He runs steels like this through laboratory grade ovens, limited to 12" Blade lengths.
-Quench in Parks 50
-cryo according to Pops instructions.

-the increase of inspection dimples was He said they checked at every stage. Especially because this was first batch.
When I was talking to him he seemed like he took good notes, and was well documented with My blades. He did them.
I later gave Larrin, Pauls personal number. Larrin tried calling right before Christmas, but didn't get in touch yet. I'll try as well but with all the holidays Idk What people's schedule is?

Comments.
Larrin and I have messaged some. He asked me some questions.
I saw a preliminary write up he's done with his findings.
It's not as clear cut as I figured it would be.
Idk IF he is going public with the information (on his website) or if the testing was done privately for Pop's?
So I'll keep What I know out of it, & not posted here yet, unless Larrin posts.
I'm not sure for who's eyes it was meant for.

I cant/won't speak for him. Obviously I wouldn't understand it to the levels he does.
I'm thinking he has done lots of different tests, and more than what he showed me. Perhaps.

-It sounds like he has an understanding of What might be happening.
Imo, it's not as clear as the How part works into the equation?
I had a couple questions he is going to pursue. Look into.

I need to see if Paul still has the test pieces I sent him.
Larrin wanted more samples. I have a couple more also to send to him.

Long story short.......still digging, collecting data.

I told you I was ready to post my findings, you asked me not to post them until you sent me more blades first.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

I told you I was ready to post my findings, you asked me not to post them until you sent me more blades first.

I did suggest we waited yes, I thought we needed more samples. I guess I was trying to protect everyone, and getting all the information available/accurately.... I'm ok, with however you want to disclose the information.
I'll still talk to Paul to see if he has them.
Thanks, again for testing.

 

[Larrin]

Here is my report: https://knifesteelnerds.com/wp-cont...dge-damage-investigation-12-26-2025-final.pdf

 

[Seedy Lot]

Larrin So if " It is recommended that knifemakers avoid the sheared edge," then why are we not seeing more issues. It is not like makers are buying 3 inch strip to make a 2 inch wide knife. I know I have made hundreds of knives out of narrow strip steel that was sheared and edges had to be close to the edge of the steel piece but zero issues.

 

[DevinT]

Larrin So if " It is recommended that knifemakers avoid the sheared edge," then why are we not seeing more issues. It is not like makers are buying 3 inch strip to make a 2 inch wide knife. I know I have made hundreds of knives out of narrow strip steel that was sheared and edges had to be close to the edge of the steel piece but zero issues.

I’m with you, it’s usually not an issue. I believe this was an outlier. To me it’s like grinding through the HAZ on a laser cut blank.

Hoss

 

[Crag the Brewer]

I’m with you, it’s usually not an issue. I believe this was an outlier. To me it’s like grinding through the HAZ on a laser cut blank.

Hoss

Hopefully an outlier, yes.
I agree with grinding around the perimeter. It's important.

Here is a blank I haven't sent to Larrin yet.
This is the fighter blank he showed on my bandsaw. It was showing relation to how it was layed out in the strip of steel. It was the one I first saw problems when I started grinding the false edge. (First) The area of the false edge is circled in red.... I had ground past the blemish on that false edge. I first thought I had a void in the steel or something, an anomaly? [When I flipped it over, and got the same flaw on the other side, that's when I knew I had a problem with these.

Notice my straight edge from front to back how it touches the blank. Assuming raw, sheared edge (it's Not. I sawed and ground, see photos) but IF it was raw..... I'm reading .112" gap. That's almost an 1/8".
*And I did More, since I Did saw and grind. Pre hardening.

-How much material do we need to remove from the sheared edge before we get to the Good stuff???


(HAZ)Heat affected zone on a laser isn't .112"+

Thanks.

 

[DevinT]

Hopefully an outlier, yes.
I agree with grinding around the perimeter. It's important.

Here is a blank I haven't sent to Larrin yet.
This is the fighter blank he showed on my bandsaw. It was showing relation to how it was layed out in the strip of steel. It was the one I first saw problems when I started grinding the false edge. (First) The area of the false edge is circled in red.... I had ground past the blemish on that false edge. I first thought I had a void in the steel or something, an anomaly? View attachment 3060030View attachment 3060031View attachment 3060032View attachment 3060033[View attachment 3060034When I flipped it over, and got the same flaw on the other side, that's when I knew I had a problem with these.

Notice my straight edge from front to back how it touches the blank. Assuming raw, sheared edge (it's Not. I sawed and ground, see photos) but IF it was raw..... I'm reading .112" gap. That's almost an 1/8".
*And I did More, since I Did saw and grind. Pre hardening.

-How much material do we need to remove from the sheared edge before we get to the Good stuff???


(HAZ)Heat affected zone on a laser isn't .112"+

Thanks.

Yeah, no telling what happened. Sucks when you put all that time into something.

It doesn’t seem to be a widespread problem. Sorry it’s happened to your stuff. More research is needed for sure.

I haven’t seen it in the knives I’ve been making. Hopefully this is an isolated incident.

Hoss

 

[Taz]

I think Buck closes at the Holidays at the end of the year from what I remember from sending them heat treating stuff. They should be open again after the New Years; I know my job gave us the Friday after New Years Day off as well, so probably Monday the 5th they will be back!

 

[Crag the Brewer]

More testing.... Grind it till you find it. Took off a bunch of edge, narrowed height of my blade. I did Not grind any off the spine.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Above Pics: From broken tip/front of knife. Seems a bit more than tip. The thickness of the spine is .112" thick.
The spine at the handle is .196"

Edit to add: those are wood fuzzies on the spine from testing.

More: this was the edge before I ground off the Extra material. Look how it just comes apart.

 

[DevinT]

Do you know what the austenitizing temperature was? Maybe you said already but I can’t remember.

Hoss

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Do you know what the austenitizing temperature was? Maybe you said already but I can’t remember.

Hoss

I think I left my notes on my desk at work from when I was talking with Paul.
He was very open and forthwright with what he did with them. He also said he looked at Larrin's page, and did his recommended temps.

I wrote them down and told them to Joey, when we talked. I just don't know them from memory.

 

[DeadPineKnives]

I promise that I'm not trying to be rude with my following statements, which I feel is necessary to say because I'm often misinterpreted.

To me it seems like faulty steel, plain and simple.

We see that ProCut performs quite well for other makers, and I'm not deeply educated on the matter but I assume that it has been tested successfully with both industrial and workshop heat treats. From what I understand, Crag the Brewer has also made successful knives from ProCut in different stock thicknesses, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm assuming other makers have also successfully used ProCut in 3/16" stock, the same gauge Crag is having issues with, right?

And obviously sheared edges have never been an issue for me or most other knife makers, and I have never had a piece of steel to flake apart like a Pilsbury biscuit. Even if the sheared edges present some degree of an issue, I could see 1/8" of material in extreme cases, but not flaking on a false edge nearly 1" in from the sheared edge.

So, ruling out all of these variables, the only logical answer, to me, is that Crag has received bars of steel that are faulty. My best guess is that whatever sheet these bars were sheared from, something went wrong during the rolling process. To me, that would fall upon whoever processed the melts for Pops, who obviously need tighter QC, but I also think that since ProCut is a product created for and sold exclusively by Pops, that it would be good of them to make things square with Crag.

That's my opinion on the matter, and how I see it, but if I'm found to be wrong I'll gladly admit it.