Any response to this? S35VN Related...

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How many threads have you seen me start on this subject? None. My videos are posted without my knowledge, then I come in and give my opinion.

You are letting emotion cloud the reality surrounding you. I don't have a care in the world about this steel, other than seeing it improved in the future. Fact is, I know how to sharpen a knife - so the steel not being up to par with S30V is inconsequential to me. Would I like to see I run harder? Yep. Do I still have my sebenza in my pocket? Yep.

If you think I have some personal agenda you are deluded.




Corpus said:
I'm sorry, but when you take it upon yourself to post a video on you tube, and then on the Kershaw forum basically announcing S35VN was shit, against a company that sets the standard for high quality, you can't tell me there's not going to be any criticism against you. I don't know what you expect from people ? Why should we be grateful ? It's like you're demanding I take your word that all S35VN HT'd by CR (and Spyderco) steel is XXXX because you had 2 knives from those companies edge warp in the same manner. OK fine, XXXX for you. My own tests on MY knife doesn't reflect your experiences. I cut 93 pieces of semi-hard VGA monitor cord (was all I had) and no damage to the edge, either then the bevel feeling slightly chafed. But the edge itself was smooth and free of deformation. Was my test the same cutting difficulty yours was ? I don't believe so. But it was still a decent test in my book. And if the steel was as XXXX as you and Ankerson implicate, then shouldn't my edge have deformed after 93 hard cuts ? So no, I'm not going to jump on the, "XXXX CR's S35VN's HT" wagon yet.

Since you mention LOADS of money, why did you run out and buy 4 CR s35VN knives without testing one first (rhetroical - I already know your answer) ? Or wait for others to test it. I don't know why you just don't ask for your money back since it seems obvious you're unhappy with the steel's performance. Apparently you're more interested in going from thread to thread shouting, "Look everyone! Look how XXXX S35VN is!" Instead of, "Yeah I contacted CRK and told them I was very unhappy with their S35VN HT and would like a refund, or if possible exchange my knives for knives in S30V" And then take it from there. /shrug.
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jnug said:
Has anybody done any research on the cost difference of the two steels in bar stock. It is hard to really tell from Internet searches but it really does
not look like there is much of a cost incentive for using one over the other at least from what little information one could glean from the Internet.
Does anybody have any information relevant to buying production quantities of the stuff?
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Not sure if anyone else mentioned that S35vn is supposed to be easier than S30V to grind therefore less time/money per blade.
 
I think somebody in one of these two threads has mentioned that Kershaw has already bumped its S35VN up in hardness and further is sending one of the guys doing testing
one of their S35VN blades so that the same test can be run on it. That could really shed some additional light on the topic. That said I still so wish that the manufacturers would
put some information into their marketing materials that would help us to understand why they have made the change or why they use a particular material from their perspective so that we would know more about the "practical" compromises at play and the practical benefits for that matter. As I mentioned earlier there may be practical benefits to S35VN even at the current hardness that these tests simply will not identify regardless of how sound the testing might be.
 
First I want to thank CTS for his tests and his patience- this is the second multi-page thread I've seen people try to beat up on him for this test. I hope this doesn't make him want to stop testing.

Second, CRK is known to HT their S30V a bit soft, so why would it be different for S35V? This doesn't seem to stop people from loving their Sebbies, and in fact, CTS says he EDCs one, so why all the heat? I know that my experience (1 Sebbie, 1 Mnandi) is that they roll and dull quicker than my other S30V knives that are harder. They are also, for me, a little harder to sharpen because the burr wants to flop back and forth (tips to avoid this are welcome!).

Third, just to add another bit of perspective to this, I once had to cut a 50 pair telephone cable- 100 26ga insulated wires- in a hurry. Not wanting to risk the edge on my main EDC, and wanting an excuse to carry the new SAK I had in my drawer, I pulled out my SAK Ambassador and started cutting. I don't much usually abuse my knives and thought this was my chance to have some fun- plus I was in a hurry. I put as much stress on the edge as I could, pushing or pulling hard, wiggling and twisting back and forth, basically doing everything as wrong as I could. I fully expected the edge to be at least rolled and probably chipped in a couple of places, but the knife came out completely unscathed other than duller than when it started. Not very scientific, but still goes to prove that cutting copper wire isn't that big a challenge.
 
Just an FYI- and please be highly respectful to what I'm posting below///

"Whether there are replies or not; there is knowledge of this thread."

Either way agreed with all of the above... and I truly appreciate this staying open and civil.
 
jnug said:
Has anybody done any research on the cost difference of the two steels in bar stock. It is hard to really tell from Internet searches but it really does
not look like there is much of a cost incentive for using one over the other at least from what little information one could glean from the Internet.
Does anybody have any information relevant to buying production quantities of the stuff?
Click to expand...

I think the cost savings (at least w/S35Vn) isn't in the material itself but in the processing of the material. So i've read.:D
 
Interesting thread and interesting tests. I can't speak for CRK, but I can speak for Spyderco.

Hi CTS,

S35VN is a fairly new steel whtih just a few melts in history. We purchased the last of the available S35VN ande made a Mule Team piece. We did a fair amount of CATRA testing with the material and found it to be very effective. (Hey Jim, Was the Mule you tested ours?). Crucible began remaking the material and a few us us are making knives with it. I'll get a current Native on the CATRA next week and see if there are any anomolies. I've been using a Native S35VN for a few months now with no probloems, but I've not done hard cutting.

Hey Jnug,

What information are you seeeking from manufacturers?

sal
 
That sounds great Sal! Thank you for weighing in with some rationality. I am interested to see how it performs on the CATRA.

My test may not be scientific, but when I have tested a multitude of knives previously to the CRK and Native without incident, then they both fail in the exact same fashion, it raised a red flag. I think we are all still just trying to figure this steel out. :)

Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread and interesting tests. I can't speak for CRK, but I can speak for Spyderco.

Hi CTS,

S35VN is a fairly new steel whtih just a few melts in history. We purchased the last of the available S35VN ande made a Mule Team piece. We did a fair amount of CATRA testing with the material and found it to be very effective. (Hey Jim, Was the Mule you tested ours?). Crucible began remaking the material and a few us us are making knives with it. I'll get a current Native on the CATRA next week and see if there are any anomolies. I've been using a Native S35VN for a few months now with no probloems, but I've not done hard cutting.

Hey Jnug,

What information are you seeeking from manufacturers?

sal
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Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread and interesting tests. I can't speak for CRK, but I can speak for Spyderco.

Hi CTS,

S35VN is a fairly new steel whtih just a few melts in history. We purchased the last of the available S35VN ande made a Mule Team piece. We did a fair amount of CATRA testing with the material and found it to be very effective. (Hey Jim, Was the Mule you tested ours?). Crucible began remaking the material and a few us us are making knives with it. I'll get a current Native on the CATRA next week and see if there are any anomolies. I've been using a Native S35VN for a few months now with no probloems, but I've not done hard cutting.

Hey Jnug,

What information are you seeeking from manufacturers?

sal
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Hi Sal,

Yep I tested 2 of them and they did fine, one was just cardboard and the other on rope for the Steel Rankings and that was HRC tested. :) :thumbup:

Can't comment on the Native 5 since I don't have one of those.

Jim
 
Sal,

Regarding blade steel, I would think it would be very helpful for us to to know from the manufacturers perspective what features and benefits drive the decision to use a particular material. Obviously we would want the information to be from the perspective of knife performance but I would leave it up to each manufacturer to decide if he wanted to broaden the perspective to include things like benefits relating to the manufacturing process as well as being particular to blade performance.

So for example, much of this discussion has been focused on edge stability. The test was an effort to understand edge stability. In my view, blade steel from one to the next is often an issue of compromise. You give up something here to get something there and optimally what you give up and what you get relates directly to the particular application. In the case of S35VN, if a manufacturer were making tactical knives and using S35VN, in the manufacturers view, what features or properties of S35VN make it attractive for use in a tactical knife. Provided that we in the user community are savvy enough to understand that there are compromises in each material structure, we would then have an understanding for why a particular steel material was used for a particular blade. For example, maybe edge stability is marginally compromised in S35VN but at the same time maybe another characteristic of the material is optimized and really very well mated to a particular application. As it stands today we really don't know how the manufacturer views such issues and a consequence we may come to all sorts of off the wall conclusions about his product.

As it is now, as you can see from the comments to the test results, if we restrict the discussion to edge stability, we don't know if we should expect edge stability to be somewhat less in S35VN vs S30V or if that should not be the case. Hence there might be an odd batch of S35VN out there, or in fact maybe a different hardness would resolve whatever edge stability issue is perceived. In addition since each manufacturer might have a different view with regard to hardness for a particular blade steel there again might be an opportunity for a manufacturer to identify why he uses what he uses in his blades and what drives his decisions for different kinds of knives.

Now I guess I don't know of another manufacturer that uses as many different blade steels on an ongoing basis as Spyderco. Most use one or two blade steels. I could see where providing this kind of information could be particularly challenging for Spyderco. On the other hand once you do it one time, it is done and you are only adding to the database if and when you add new steels. Although since Spyderco does use so many different steels, perhaps charting the steels that Sypderco uses would be helpful to buyers as they look through the Spyderco catalog intending to choose one Spyderco knife over another.

For manufacturers that use one steel for all of their knives, then they would only have to provide the information for that one steel and then they might also provide some means of comparing steels when they make a change from one steel to the next. So for example if the supplier is changing from S30V to S35VN and he believes that there are actually no differences in the properties of these two materials as knife steels for his application, then at the point of making the change, say so. If he feels there are features and benefits that make the steel that he is adopting better for the particular kinds of knives he is making, say so. If he is changing steels and also changing hardness in order to optimize the new steel for a particular application, then say so.

Hopefully this is an adequate answer to your question. My comments are only meant to be beneficial and are not intended to be harsh or particularly critical.
 
Sal, good of you to chime in. I wonder why Chris hasn't done the same?

Esav, buddy, lol I feel sorry for you, it looks like you had your work cut out for you with all that editing.
 
Hey CTS,

I'd love to test the Native that you tested. I couldn't get your link to work so I didn't see the video. I'll try to chase it down when I've got more time. perhaps you could send it to me?

Spyderco
Attn: Sal Glesser
820 Spyderco way
Golden, Colorado 80403

Hi Jnug,

Welcome to the Bladeforums.

Much of that information has been available and discussed on the forums for some time. You might have to do some chasing. In a nutshell, CPM-S30V was developed by Crucible as a Knife steel. We've been using it for some time now in our US and Taiwan made models. CPM-S35VN was developed as an improvement to S30V by Barber (a metallurgist at Crucible atthe time), Reeve and the boys at Strider (Dwyer and Strider). All very knowledgable and dedicated knife guys. The new steel had the addition of Niobium and demonstrated improved machining and finishing. Production was held back for a while as Barber was trying to patent the chemistry, but ultimately wasn't able to due to prior art.

We tested the steel quite a bit and found it to be a tad better than S30V in edge retention, along with some mfg processes. Crucible as well as some makers felt it would replace S30V. We felt it was good enough to ultimately replace S30V and began to put it into our schedule. As you mentioned, we use quite a few steels and we're always "playing" so steel aquisition for us can be a bit of a challenge.

When Crucible began making S35VN again, we began using it in the new Native 5. This is the first negative report we've heard, so naturally we're interersted to find out if it is a problem, what that problem is, and why it might be happening.

Steel is not such a science in blade performance as one might think. Variable are many. The edge is a wondrous thing (like fire). It is very complicated in its creation being dependent on the steel itself, along with heat treat, geometry, sharpening methods and angles, etc. That's why the study of the edge attracts such intelligent patrons.

Once we get the tested blade in our lab, we can do some testing (Rc, CATRA, microscopes, etc.), we might be able to determine a cause. Certainly we will replace TCS' knife, but we need to know for our own information what might have occurred.

sal
 
Wow this is some good info and headed in the correct direction- Thanks guys and obviously thanks Sal for everything so far *It's amazing to hear from someone of your caliber...* = )
 
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Sal:

Great to hear from someone with your reputation, knowledge and experience weigh in.

I know you are busy - but I have a general question unrelated to this specific issue - do you find the knife enthusiast community getting a little too demanding of the product, or is this typical?

I'm in my mid 40's and have been using knives since childhood - it just seems like recently (last few years) we consumers are expecting our knives to be the end all, be all. I am an engineer - so I understand that there really is no such thing as perfection - everything has its limitations. As long as you stay within the limits of a material then all tends to work out well. I am in no way discounting this specific issue - its just an observation.

Thanks for all you do, and also thanks to the forum members who spend their time and money to "do the homework" that so many of us benefit from.

BTW - I have two large Sebenzas with S35VN and a Nyala with S35VN and haven't had any problems yet, but am not subjecting the knives to the same rigorous use as others.
 
Glad I clicked back into this thread, for a moment I thought it was going to go south as I saw a bunch of XXXX edits, but curiosity got the best of me this morning and now I find myself VERY interested in the outcome of this situation.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hey CTS,

I'd love to test the Native that you tested. I couldn't get your link to work so I didn't see the video. I'll try to chase it down when I've got more time. perhaps you could send it to me?

Spyderco
Attn: Sal Glesser
820 Spyderco way
Golden, Colorado 80403


sal
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Yeah I would too and that Sebenza to see what would happen in my standard battery of testing on Rope, Cardboard and wood.

My method of testing is harder on the edges than John's as it's a combination of all 3 medium combined, rope then straight to cardboard, then straight to wood without touching the edge so if there is an issue it will definitely show up.

But definitely send that Native 5 to Sal. :)
 
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Agreed, this is a great read. Thanks to everyone for their testing and insights. I'm a lifer when it comes to the S30V Seb, but everything (especially newly-developed [S35V]) has its limits and I for one am fascinated when these boundries are pushed. Yes, there is a fine line between use and abuse, but it's a line that most of us among the knife elite will cross at some point. I take comfort in the fact that others have crossed it before I did. Thanks again.

Professor.
 
Agreed- and thanks Lisa! I've been trying my best to keep this thread civil and in the up-most respectful direction.

Thanks everyone.

lisantica said:
Glad I clicked back into this thread, for a moment I thought it was going to go south as I saw a bunch of XXXX edits, but curiosity got the best of me this morning and now I find myself VERY interested in the outcome of this situation.
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Professor said:
Agreed, this is a great read. Thanks to everyone for their testing and insights. I'm a lifer when it comes to the S30V Seb, but everything (especially newly-developed [S35V]) has its limits and I for one am fascinated when these boundries are pushed. Yes, there is a fine line between use and abuse, but it's a line that most of us among the knife elite will cross at some point. I take comfort in the fact that others have crossed it before I did. Thanks again.

Professor.
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John,

I would give Chris Reeve a shot at looking at the knife ect 1st to see what they say.

If not send that Sebenza to me and I will do a full run on it, my full battery of testing like I do with the other knives including the Umnumzaan (S30V).

So at best Chris Reeve will look at the knife, what I would like to see happen, best case scenario.

On the other hand that same knife will have been tested by two testers using different methods of testing for another data point.


Jim
 
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