Any response to this? S35VN Related...

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marthinus said:
Glad I could have helped a bit. Mike Stewart is the man behind Bark River Knife and Tool.

On a side note, I realise you are still a new member and are already learning at a great speed something it took me years to learn: Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everything read on internet that is not part of scientific journal studies etc (that are scrutinised by fellow academics for accuray) should be taken with a grain of salt. What is said can guide you to form your own opinion.
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Lets look at exactly what Crucible Industries say in their data sheet for S35VN in relation to S30V including about edge retention. This is from page one of their two page current data sheet available to all and sundry from their web site.

"... Substituting niobium carbides for some of the vanadium carbides makes CPM S35VN about 15-20% tougher than CPMS30V without any loss of wear resistance …"

In the section called "Mechanical Properties" the toughness test (Charpy impact test) gave S35VN a 20% higher value than S30V in energy absorption as noted in the first Table “Toughness”.

The Table "Edge Retention (CATRA Testing Relative to 440C)" notes S35VN & S30V having the same value of 145. However for S35VN Crucible state it is an “Estimate based upon market feedback”.

I was not able to see anywhere Crucible specifically say S35VN does NOT have the same Edge Holding as S30V.

So it seems entirely reasonable to make direct comparisons between CPM S35VN and CPM S30V.
 
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered and I missed it but do we know what the target HRC is for the first run ZT 0550's now?
 
Chris Reeve Knives said:
Thought you would like to know - Chris has just used his large Sebenza 21 to make 300 cuts on a 3 core orange extension cord. The knife is shaving sharp and sliced through paper three or four times.

Anne
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Wow, that is very good!
Very different result from the test carried out by CTS.

So is that indicating a problem with the knife that CTS used or are the variations from knife to knife??
 
Very useful information - I wonder what the batch to batch consistency is from Crucible?

Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread and interesting tests. I can't speak for CRK, but I can speak for Spyderco.

Hi CTS,

S35VN is a fairly new steel whtih just a few melts in history. We purchased the last of the available S35VN ande made a Mule Team piece. We did a fair amount of CATRA testing with the material and found it to be very effective. (Hey Jim, Was the Mule you tested ours?). Crucible began remaking the material and a few us us are making knives with it. I'll get a current Native on the CATRA next week and see if there are any anomolies. I've been using a Native S35VN for a few months now with no probloems, but I've not done hard cutting.

Hey Jnug,

What information are you seeeking from manufacturers?

sal
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Should we not? Crucible does. And Crucible does say edge retention (wear resistance) should be the same:

CPM S35VN was designed to offer a 15-20% improvement
in toughness over CPM S30V without any loss of wear
resistance or corrosion resistance. It is also easier to
machine and polish than CPM S30V
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http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/Knifemaker REV June 2010.pdf

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS35VNrev12010.pdf

marthinus said:
Here is an interesting post on another forum:



Should we even compare S35VN to S30V? Or should we actually look into how it compares to CPM-154 or RWL-34?
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I hope you guys did not take anything I posted the wrong way. I for one am glad people are conducting tests. None of the testers appear to me to
be claiming that they are not stressing the material beyond practical application and I even think they have gone out of their way to say that they
know they are stressing the material past practical application. I don't want the folks doing the work to think I don't appreciate it.
 
giant1 said:
Wow, that is very good!
Very different result from the test carried out by CTS.

So is that indicating a problem with the knife that CTS used or are the variations from knife to knife??
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You can't really conclude anything about CTS's test or knife from it, since it's an entirely different result via an entirely different test with entirely different stress on the edge.
 
kreole said:
You can't really conclude anything about CTS's test or knife from it, since it's an entirely different result via an entirely different test with entirely different stress on the edge.
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That's kind of what I was thinking. Also my test was on video, so my results are there for the world to see real time. Not relayed through another person. Take that for what it's worth. Not calling anyone a liar, but I would have loved to have seen that test performed.
 
Ankerson said:
That is something I would just love to see happen....... On video and or with photos ect......

Of course he tested that edge in the same spot he was push cutting through that cord with right?
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Yeah, I have a hard time believing that after 300 cuts it still shave **in the spot that was doing the cutting.**
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
Yeah, I have a hard time believing that after 300 cuts it still shave **in the spot that was doing the cutting.**
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I will just say that I would have to see it happen with my own eyes to believe it based on all the knife testing that I have done on hundreds of different knives over the past 2 decades.

I am one of those show me guys.... Being that I have done a lot of testing, 300 cuts on thin lamp cord push cutting, OK maybe..... And at 58-59 RC......... In S35VN..... On Orange Power cord, 3 Ply Power cord.....

So what that is telling me is that that edge took ZERO damage after 300 cuts on power cord.

That's one that I just might try on a Sebenza in S35VN just to see if I ever get one in to test, I have an old orange power cord that I could use as media.

That's all I will post on that....
 
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Just wanted to let you know I appreciate your testing and it is interesting, thanks
 
In the interest of not hijacking a Chris Reeve thread for a Native 5 topic. , we have a similar discussion going on in the Spyderco subsection of the Bladeforums as well as the Spyderco site forum. We have some experts that frequent the Spyderco Site forum and we'll like their opoinions as well.

sal
 
Heywood Floyd said:
Lets look at exactly what Crucible Industries say in their data sheet for S35VN in relation to S30V including about edge retention. This is from page one of their two page current data sheet available to all and sundry from their web site.

"... Substituting niobium carbides for some of the vanadium carbides makes CPM S35VN about 15-20% tougher than CPMS30V without any loss of wear resistance …"

In the section called "Mechanical Properties" the toughness test (Charpy impact test) gave S35VN a 20% higher value than S30V in energy absorption as noted in the first Table “Toughness”.

The Table "Edge Retention (CATRA Testing Relative to 440C)" notes S35VN & S30V having the same value of 145. However for S35VN Crucible state it is an “Estimate based upon market feedback”.

I was not able to see anywhere Crucible specifically say S35VN does NOT have the same Edge Holding as S30V.

So it seems entirely reasonable to make direct comparisons between CPM S35VN and CPM S30V.
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Thanks for the info. Got the pdf's and read it.
 
I think having a manufacturer consider, something might be off is what i would like to see...Looking at the tests it certainly doesn't seem like its an isolated problem??? Am i wrong in thinking that? And it worries me that the 4-500 plus knife i bought, can be out preformed by my 80.00 zdp-189 blade?????? I mean i cant be alone in thinking WTH???? I have bought several knives on reputation alone and though they all cut paper well, watching CTS vids and a few others have seriously dampened my enthusiasm....i was taught actions speak louder then anything someone can say and till i see proof that CTS is wrong the vids speak for themselves, unless hes using a green screen or trick photography??? What say you sir?? lol
 
The number of people talking about cutting power cables like it's a crime kinda makes me ill. Do you even use your knives? Any average person would think you're absolutely insane if you bothered carrying a knife, especially an expensive one you like to talk about how great the super steel on it is, then refused to cut through some extension cord or ethernet cord because you didn't want to 'hurt the knife'.

I think too many people own knives they can't afford to use and they lose touch with how a knife is supposed to be used. They like to talk about how it's a tool, but it seems to be nothing more than jewellery for quite a few folks.

It's always funny to witness the obsession with harder steels, stronger locks, etc. then people freaking out because you dared to use a knife for something a dollar store box cutter couldn't do.
 
100eyes said:
The number of people talking about cutting power cables like it's a crime kinda makes me ill. Do you even use your knives? Any average person would think you're absolutely insane if you bothered carrying a knife, especially an expensive one you like to talk about how great the super steel on it is, then refused to cut through some extension cord or ethernet cord because you didn't want to 'hurt the knife'.

I think too many people own knives they can't afford to use and they lose touch with how a knife is supposed to be used. They like to talk about how it's a tool, but it seems to be nothing more than jewellery for quite a few folks.

It's always funny to witness the obsession with harder steels, stronger locks, etc. then people freaking out because you dared to use a knife for something a dollar store box cutter couldn't do.
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I am priveleged to be able to afford lots of very expensive knives and have used my knives for a few decades for everything I feel that a knife should be used for. The point of the supersteels for me is that they stay sharper longer, not that I can cut unsuitable materials with them. For instance extension cable I will cut with a pair of pliers not a knife. Of course you can do whatever you want with your knives, but it doesn't interest or surprise me if your edge is damaged then. The same goes for locks: nice to know the blade won't close on my fingers, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start 'spine-whacking' and batoning the hell out of my folder and then complain on the internet when it gets damaged. It's like buying a Ferrari and then driving a rally course and complaining that the bumper fell off.

By the way I think "the average person" will think a person is nuts if they cut extension cord with an any folder and especially an expensive folder.
 
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100eyes said:
The number of people talking about cutting power cables like it's a crime kinda makes me ill. Do you even use your knives? Any average person would think you're absolutely insane if you bothered carrying a knife, especially an expensive one you like to talk about how great the super steel on it is, then refused to cut through some extension cord or ethernet cord because you didn't want to 'hurt the knife'.

I think too many people own knives they can't afford to use and they lose touch with how a knife is supposed to be used. They like to talk about how it's a tool, but it seems to be nothing more than jewellery for quite a few folks.

It's always funny to witness the obsession with harder steels, stronger locks, etc. then people freaking out because you dared to use a knife for something a dollar store box cutter couldn't do.
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For me, that's all dependent on the steel. I would take some caution when considering contact with metal if I have a blade of S125V, S110V, S90V, CTS-20CP, or ZDP-189 in my hand. I was much more lax with my $1000 custom(including the Starlingear bead on the lanyard;)) in M390 at Rc 62 when cutting cardboard that was resting against hard plastic. Still wouldn't scrape the thing against glass or metal though. Though the S30V in my $425 Umnumzaan fills me with enough confidence to go and cut open a car hood if need be. Thus why I'm a bit confused as to why S35VN was even necessary given that S30V was more than tough enough for any non-abusive(and abusive) tasks, such as killing your computer monitor(Strider:thumbup:). The extra toughness seems unnecessary if the maker doesn't harden the steel more to capitalize on that quality.

As for grinding, I'm not sure how much less wear the 1% of vanadium would really be. Actually I'm confused with the entire wear resistance concept in general. To think that you could drop 1% of vanadium and replace it with 0.5% niobium and have no loss of wear resistance would imply that niobium carbides are harder than vanadium carbides. Yet if that were truly the case then it shouldn't be easier to grind at all.

Actually, a great question that's been bugging me for quite a while is why don't knife manufacturers use CPM-154 if the wear on tools is the issue? It should have a lower carbide volume, equal toughness to S30V(at least from looking at the datasheet), and softer chromium carbides rather than a high volume of vanadium carbides. Custom makers love it for obvious reasons, yet knife companies seem to avoid it like the plague. Why?
 
Yes, I have frequently wondered about that myself. Many manufacturers seem happy to use 154-CM as well as S30/5V but totally ignore CPM-154. Like you say custom makers long ago discovered the benefits of this steel but manufacturers continue to treat it like a red-headed stepchild. Which doesnt make any sense to me.

Noctis3880 said:
Actually, a great question that's been bugging me for quite a while is why don't knife manufacturers use CPM-154 if the wear on tools is the issue? It should have a lower carbide volume, equal toughness to S30V(at least from looking at the datasheet), and softer chromium carbides rather than a high volume of vanadium carbides. Custom makers love it for obvious reasons, yet knife companies seem to avoid it like the plague. Why?
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