Anybody else-sebenza dead horse.

I have no problem with the status symbol and popularity argument, but when someones compares the supply and demand to Sebenzas to the supply and demand of cheap knock offs, it is obvious that their knowledge of economics, supply and demand as well as aplication of logic and knives in the market place is somewhat misplaced since basic rules of each of those areas indicate the the price is quite in line with the supply and demand.
 
Bastid said:
I have no problem with the status symbol and popularity argument, but when someones compares the supply and demand to Sebenzas to the supply and demand of cheap knock offs, it is obvious that their knowledge of economics, supply and demand as well as aplication of logic and knives in the market place is somewhat misplaced since basic rules of each of those areas indicate the the price is quite in line with the supply and demand.
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:D
320px-Simple_supply_and_demand.png
 
DaveH said:
There's probably no arguing that since it sells, it must be priced right.
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If the end goal is to make maximum money for the maker/manufacturer. Most people buying tools don't tend to have this as the focus of their viewpoint and instead look upon the impact it has on them.

You can't say your arguement is weak because you don't have the same focus, this obviously holds in reverse as you don't have mine, and thus all arguements are weak by trivial extension.

In reference to the knockoffs my point was simply they sell at their price point and make money for those who choose to make them. Can you use this monetary arguement alone and ignore everything else.

People don't of course, and are their arguements "weak" because they choosen to ignore everything else but the dollar - hardly. They have other viewpoints besides simply making money.

My viewpoint on the Sebenza is that it is overpriced because I can easily exceed its performance for less money. In regards to how much money Reeve can make from its sale, it is probably priced right.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
By similar logic you can easily defend knockoffs as the market for them is also very high.

When people make statements like the Sebenza is overpriced, they don't mean Reeve would make more money if he lowered the price.

They usually mean among other things, it is a performance / cost issue and popularity is irrelevant.

-Cliff
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I think it is very easy to understand that if every one made sells and that there is a backlog, then as far as the market goes an the item is not overpriced. Each person has to judge for themselves if that item has value to them.

If a knockoff sells out and is constantly on backorder then it to is not overpriced as far as the market is concerned. However, the fact that they are not overpriced has nothing to do with whether what they are doing is ethical. I do not see how saying that there is a market for a knife is a defense for the companies incredibly poor ethics. There is a large market for pirated DVDs and CDs. That doesn't make the selling of them right.

Sorry for taking this thread in an off topic direction.
 
Thanks Keith.

It has become more than obvious that basic supply and demand is not something easily grasped by some.

My focus is basic economics, we are talking business when simple and basic Supply and Demand tells us that the statement that Sebenzas are overpriced is illogical and goes agains any basic economics that is taught in high school. Businesses exist to maximize profit. (Obviously some people feel that a busness exists to provide them a service or implement at a cheap cost, but they are not being realistic or logical.)

The price is quite in line with the market and a logical business person strives to stay at that equilibrium.

Anyone who says differently does not understand basic economics, logic or business.

Saying that, I can fully understand the logic that a cheaper knife can accomplish the same tasks equally or better than an expensive knife, but that does not mean the expensive knife is overpriced.

Something is overpriced when the supply exceeds the demand.

If the supply of Sebenzas exceeded the demand then I would agree that they are overpriced otherwise the argument is non existant except in the minds of people who do not grasp pricing and economics.

It is illogical to refute those basic economic facts.
 
I have a friend at work that makes fun of me because because he claims that his $2 pos chinese knock off cuts just as well as my Dozier ($200). Then I point out that my Casio keeps much better time than his $17,000 Rolex. I think that by rating a knife by it's cutting ability alone is like rating a car only by it's engine power. The point being that a knife is a combination of attributes that contribute to it's funcunality. For example compare the small sebenza with the calypso jr. with ZDP-189 laminated blade. The calypso could probably outcut the seb. Holding the two side by side the seb seems alot more solid. I would never use the calypso at work. I just can't see myself holding down a screaming maniac with one hand and trying to close the calypso with the other. The seb goes out of my pocket, I open it, cut what I need, close it and it goes back in my pocket no muss no fuss. That's what makes the seb worth it for me. If others can get better performance with other knives for less money then I say good for you. But is it necessary to knock down the opinions of other well meaning forum members because some people don't agree with their high and mighty opinions? I think buying and using knives has more to do with what the buyer wants and feels he/she needs and likes moreso than what the "experts" say is best. After all I'm the one paying the bill and using the knife. I've been through plenty of folders and the one that seems to do the job for me is the Seb. And yeah I think the Seb is way underpriced. :p
 
Bastid said:
My focus is basic economics ...
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Overpriced in general simply means that the price is too high. It use in general english isn't constrained to its economic defination. Usually the "too" descriptor is constrained by worth or value.

Roget's for example has it as a synonym with extortionate which is actually a much harsher term usually. But basically again one of value for money, not simply can an item sell.

The user gets to decide the value, thus one person can see something as overpriced and another not as they have different needs or simply a different amount of money to spend.

Keith Montgomery said:
There is a large market for pirated DVDs and CDs. That doesn't make the selling of them right
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Yes, that was the point. When you consider other elements outside of monetary ones for the seller your viewpoint changes. The elements are not the same in each case of course.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Since you are giving me an English lesson, maybe you should thing about how the price of a knife is actually established by a business.

Two basic things are used to determine a price.

Supply and Demand.

You can ignore that and come to an improper conclusion that the price is too high based on a fact that you can achieve the same performance by something cheaper and then use bad logic to say the item is overpriced. (the same obvious thing can be said about pretty much anything).

Or.

You can actually come to a legit and logical conclusion that the item is not overpriced.

This is not about the use of language. It is solid evidence that the knife you claim to be over priced is not and your argument to say that is is has been logically disputed.

Pick any stainless knife Cliff, in the vast majority of cases, I can make the same claim that you are by having quality steel grinding it idential to the knife you pick, heat treat it properly, epoxy it between some handle material and have a knife that outperforms or is equal to the knife you chose at a lessor cost.

That does not mean the knife you picked is overpriced. It just means that the performance can be matched by a cheaper knife. The same can be said of almost any product. You have proven nothing as far as the correct pricing of the knife.

Using your logic - the vast majority of knives are overpriced.

Until the supply is greater than the demand, your conclusion that the Sebenza is overpriced is incorrect. No matter how you wish to slice and dice it.
 
Isn't this entire case sort of 'to each thier own'.
Out of all the people I know I am probably the only one that would drop 400+ on any type of knife , this includes hunters , fishers firemen and LEO's.
The folks I know that have use for a knife are just as pleased with a Buck or similiar to get the job done. I've handled a few Sebenzas at gun shows and they are well built but , I dont have lots of cash to throw around like most of us. When it comes down to catching up on bills or making sure your vehicle gets you to work each day , some things are just more important. :D
Bottom line I think if your pleased with your CRKT or BM or whatever else and it works for you then so be it. My Spyderco hasnt failed me yet and I doubt it will anytime soon , and.... That works for me :)
 
Well put RBF.

I am not what you would call a Sebenza nut. Although I do own a small one and a small decorated one.

All I am pointing out is that when someone says they are overpriced and choses to ignore the two factors that are used to determine a price. Then their argument that they are overpriced is invalid and that the item (knife in this case is not overpriced at all.).

I am also pointing out that saying the performance of an item can be matched or exceeded by the performance of a cheaper item can not logically be used as a guide to determine if a knife is overpriced unless supply and demand is also considered. As a matter of fact it has nothing to do with how the price of a knife is established or if it is correctly priced.

The actual truth is that the price of the knife is in equilibrium with the two main factors that influence the price of any item - Supply and Demand.

If one choses to ignore that, then any conclusion can be reached based upon an individuals opinion and available funds, but that does not make it a valid or even a logical conclusion.
 
So I have a question, I have seen a WD Pease knife at $1350 for several months, since it's still sitting on the shelf at the dealer, can I fugure that it's overpriced?
 
If you saw a bunch of knives made by Bill on the market for a long time going unsold you could come to that concluseion.

Concluding the same from 1 knife at one dealer does not take into account the market.

Supply and Demand deals with total supply and total demand of the market.

I suggest a basic high school course if that does not make sense or if it is not clear. :rolleyes:
 
A factoid. When the time came that I decided I wanted a Busse Satin Jack (at least I distinguish between "want" and "need"), I discovered that Busse sold them for $225 with a sorta' sheath. That was $50-$75 under the price on the secondary market with no sheath at all. Busse only had two models in stock, but one was the SJ. (It arrived in 72 hours.)

I know from experience that Loveless would sell you a knife for lots less than dealers. IIRC from my last experience, that was true of Randall. But both had delay issues, so the secondary market was reflecting a value for instant gratification. Not so with Busse.

And I still think that intrinsic value is a recognized and useful concept -- especially if we are talking about tools vs. objects of worship. It just does not have much at all to do with market pricing.
 
Bastid said:
It just means that the performance can be matched by a cheaper knife.
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Hence the other one is overpriced by defination if you use performance as a measure of worth, as I quoted the term just means being priced too high for its value/worth.

Simply because there is an economic defination centered on supply and demand doesn't mean you get to enforce this point of view as you feel it is the correct one.

There is a physics defination of work for example which is different than english defination, however you don't correct someone using the english one by pointing out it isn't correct use of the physics term.

As I noted, most people use the term to reference performance/cost, each individual has the right obviously to set their own standards on cost/performance.

I by the way have noted the supply/demand issue in defence of the Sebenza's price several times, I am just aware that it isn't going to be the major consideration of most people when buying tools.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

If you chose it ignore the affect of supply and demand on the price of a knife that is fine.

But to conclude that a knife is overpriced without taking supply and demand into consideration will often lead to a conclusion that is not true by any standards also to compare the supply and demand of cheap knockoff's to the Sebenza is not even in the ballpark illustrating that the basic concept is not being grasped.

Supply and demand is not a definition. I am talking about reality here.

Supply and demand are the basis of a price. I would hate to be involved in a business that treated it as the non-entity you do. The business would be doomed. (When was the last time a business failed due to a definition?).
No it is not a definition, it is a reality of business and it is obvious that the Sebenza is not overpriced.

I can accept the thought that it is your opinion that it is too expensive, but to say it is overpriced is false. The term overpriced implys that it is overpriced in the market (not for an individual). It is not logical to look at the market using tunnel vision in ignoring supply and demand. When you say it is overpriced due to the fact you can match or beat it's performance by another item you bring the market into play and your are only bringing in a narrow segment of the market leaving out the most important aspect of price.

Your performace comparison - saying that the performance can be matched by a cheaper item is of course valid, since it is more than obvious that it is true for the majority of any product being sold.
 
Dijos said:
I hate to beat a dead horse, but...
I'm actually looking to see if anybody else is underwhelmed by it.
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To me the dead horse came alive, so to speak, not through flogging but buying into it:
I started out underwhelmed by the Seb, as veterans of old Seb wars can testify (hi, DaveH :-),
and I haven't changed my mind about their being too expensive for a production knife by rational standards of comparison...
but on the other hand, as a collector, what ceiling is there to price...
it becomes a kind of secondary consideration: money's the wherewithal, but not the measure of good knives.
Now that the hurts of priceyness has faded, I gaze with great satisfaction at my little collection, and love to handle them. Especially the beautiful woodies make the Sebs (along with the Mnandi) one of the two major cornerstones of my collection. In the end, look how pricey some stamps are :-)
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Hence the other one is overpriced by defination if you use performance as a measure of worth, as I quoted the term just means being priced too high for its value/worth.

Simply because there is an economic defination centered on supply and demand doesn't mean you get to enforce this point of view as you feel it is the correct one.

There is a physics defination of work for example which is different than english defination, however you don't correct someone using the english one by pointing out it isn't correct use of the physics term.
-Cliff
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Do they spell definition differently in Canaduh? :rolleyes:

What about defence, here, we spell it defense?

Cliff, Gus is explaining supply and demand to you. It is a commonly used free-market term, one that often defines success for the production aspect of a business. It is not an abstract concept. You are trying(again) to apply concepts from one discipline (physics) to a completely unrelated one (business/economics).

How about just for once in your life, you STFU, and realize that you are not the only smart person in the room, and that other people might actually know what they are talking about.

The Sebenza is an expensive working knife. It is also very popular, and works well for many, but not all tasks.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hmm, i think you supply an demand guys are missing something in your equations.

And btw, leave canadians and thier spelling, out of this crap.



So in this scenario, lets say these Seb's, became the doll of hollywood, and the stars come to get in line to order one, now we have Demand, but does this justify pricing alone?

Absolutely not, and to suggest it is the benchmark that equates value to tangibly existing worth is downright stupid or naive whatever you choose fits here.

So now we have to equate looks to value, it seems this is where the price points of seb's have made thier claim to fame, as thier not built that much better in terms of performance then a, say benchamde or spyderco are they, just a whole lot prettier. And that is where the price point on these units rides.

Supply an demand slants bring me back to gasoline, lol, yup go figure, is it really worth what you pay now? Of course not, false supply figures cause unnatural jumps not relating to real world supply, ok bad idea, but it gives a sense to the falsness of Supply an demand.

That would work in the early century when peeps lined up to buy Fords-T's, eventually there was enough for everyone, so was the inital price too low or too many made?

Quality of materials used, workmanship, service an support are imho what make up expected pricing, not because i have to wait in line to buy one, stood in a many a poor movie's line to see crap, this applies to everything.


Enough stodgy or otherwise collectors can overwhelm a persons capability to make enough for everyone that can falsly inflate demand and pricing, these Seb's are a nice built unit of materials an style,and are deserving of praise.

To think, supply an demand means i would pay 10k more for a new truck in the spring as compared to fall, but if it was 50k more, is it realistic supply an demand pricing?

Just some more food for thought.


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Is it STeven or Steven, or just terrorist styled handwriting coming out?
:D


Peace out

WR
 
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