Atwood Prybaby - should I get S30V or titanium?

[Peter Atwood]

Welcome to BF Xiao!

 

[xzjia]

I usually lurks in forums, but sometimes I do come up for air.

 

[DOUG APPLEGATE]

I Have Several Of Mr. Atwoods Knives And Tools In Both Ti And S30v. No Failures And No Complaints. Why Don't You Just Admit That He Makes A Damn Fine Tool And Quit With All The Scientific Bs.
We Buy Them Because We Like Them.

 

[gajinoz]

I Have Several Of Mr. Atwoods Knives And Tools In Both Ti And S30v. No Failures And No Complaints. Why Don't You Just Admit That He Makes A Damn Fine Tool And Quit With All The Scientific Bs.
We Buy Them Because We Like Them.

Pretty much sums it up!

 

[Kohai999]

In S30V, it is a very handy item. I purchased it because it served a specific purpose for me, not because it was a cute little tool.

My company has a display booth for trade shows that is comprised of a variety of panels, like a Lego Structure. The Stanley mini prybar that I had purchased for the company toolbox is too thin and the severe bend was unnecessary. The Bugout Bar has been the perfect tool for the job.

I am getting a PryBaby from Peter at Blade if he has any left. I am doing this for two reasons; 1) I like Peter's work, and I like to support makers when I can, 2) I feel that this will become another one of those indipensable tools that I cannot live without.

Some people had posted previously about Peter making a "metal detector"/flying friendly PryBaby. This, to me, defeats the purpose of the thing in the first place. It will go on my keychain, and when I fly, will be packed in my suitcase with all my other metal gear. There is no reason not to travel that way, you cannot use your keys on the flight, and if you pack your keychain properly, it will be safe. There are many other interesting things in my suitcase that will be tampered with before my keys.

I will choose my PryBaby in S30V, because it is a good material for my uses, and I am not a Ti Head. Titanium has its purposes, and the Russians have made large prybars out of the material, but it is quite plentiful in Russia. Color would be interesting, but offers no great appeal to me, in comparison.

I salute Peter Atwood for making great niche tools, at a fair price, and for making this hobby of ours a little more fun and interesting.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Saberman]

Peter, I remember why and when you first started using S30V on the Prybabies. Back some years ago you showed me the first Prybaby. Up at your old shop we opened a couple of beers talked about them. If you remember it had a seatbelt cutter on it...

So, if anyone members have a old school one. Please post a pic. So people can see what I'm talking about.

Doug, you hit right on.

 

[martin j]

So many people say "this thread is ONLY about chosing x or y"- anything else is irrelevent -
1-I did not know after years reading BF threads, there is "rule" you cannot stray from original posting, or suggeste improvement, dispute reasoning behind material choices etc
2-When someone says "Dear Spyderco this is only avalable in steel x or Y, can you make it in Z" or "can you make this tip down also?" may be we should get into habit of saying, "shut up, spyderco only makes it this way, take it or leave it"

 

[Trout Tamer]

Wow, lots of discussion on this thread. And here I was, afraid I wouldn't get any answers!
So, here is what I'm thinking concerning a few comments made:

Actually, the original question was which version, (S30V or Ti), should the person buy. Since they are only made in those two versions currently, arguing that they should be in XYZ steel is, technically, out of scope.

Yep, that was my intention for the post; nothing more, nothing less. Of course, one can postulate about or inform on the characteristics of different material choices, but my own motivation for posting was merely to gain further insight into the immediately existing options.

...it is assumed that the question is based on wanting performance not an irrational attachment to X or Y

No offense intended here, but you are half-right, along with a faulty assumption. My question was based on desire for knowledge concerning the performance of the currently available materials for an Atwood Prybaby. So, you are correct in that I want information, based on experience, about the materials. However, you are wrong in assuming that the scope of my question extends to involve Prybabies with materials not offered.

My own opinion on this: I can see the reasons that Mr. Atwood has for using these materials. I can also understand why other materials would make very viable alternatives. If one wishes to have a Prybaby made of a different metal, then that person can contact Mr. Atwood. I had not thought of this option, so it was an original idea to me.

The "issue" was which version of the tool that is offered should be purchased: S30V or Titanium

Yep, exactly. Now, another personal insight on the nature of internet hobbyist discussion when answering a question:

In posting this thread, I was seeking help from those knife users whose opinions and insights I value highly; namely, all y'alls. And, indeed, I received exactly that which I was looking for: is there any real-world performance difference between the S30V Prybaby or the titanium Prybaby? The answer appears to be a resounding "no". As designed, the Prybaby is sufficiently small so as to not allow torsional forces in everyday use to become a significant factor in metal choice. This is what I wanted to know. Some peole have brought up various side-issues, such as: "why make the Prybaby in these materials and not others?" and "why not buy something significantly cheaper and modify it yourself?".

As some pointed out, those issues were not directly relevant to my original post. However, they are interesting discussion and indirect spin-offs of the topic. Personally, I don't have a lot of antipathy for the so-called "bunny trails" that constantly occur in conversation. On the contrary, I am sure that many, many great ideas and discoveries have been the direct result of off-topic side-issues. If I, the original questioner, received the information I was looking for, then I got what I wanted. If other knowledge can be received in the exchange, so much the better. That is, so much the better, with a caveat: one major underlying reason we all post on this forum is for the sake of community, in particular, the knife afficionado community. If the exchange of info and ideas breeds quarrels and contempt, then the community that we desire to create has been lost. This not only ends enjoyable relationships but also causes all involved to miss out on valuable insight.

On quarrels and contempt: we will not all be of the same opinion all the time. That is fine. In fact, we may get into some heated, emotionally-fired debate I think that is also perfectly acceptable; we are being human, exactly what we were made to be. I personally believe that the line should be drawn at the point that difference of opinion becomes severing of relationship and ardent feelings harden into personal contempt for others. In this forum, we are talking about the proper use of inanimate objects, not the spiritual, moral, or social responsibilities of mankind Since the discussion basis does not involve these deeper matters, then the severing of relationship need not occur, nor the actions and words by which that result is achieved

So, that is where I am at on this thread. I am 90% certain that I will get a Prybaby in S30V. Since there is no performance difference, the $20 saved is, at this time, the largest contributing factor in my choice. Maybe someday I'll have the money for "pretty" but, until then, "useful" will have to suffice

Thanks for the conversation, guys.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

it certainly wouldn't lower the cost; steel is not a significant part of the cost of custom knives or tools.

It depends on the cost, or more importantly the profit margin. Phil Wilson for example a few years back was offering his introductory kitchen knives in AISI 420HC for ~$125-150, his S90V ones were significantly more expensive.

The difference in cost of these steels is a significant percentage of that baseline when combined with the difference in ease of machining and S90V is *WAY* more difficult to polish so it has a lot more time involved.

In order to appreciate this fully you need to hand sand a piece of S90V vs 420HC, or just try grinding 1095 vs D2 on a belt sander. They are worlds apart.

Of course as the prices start to rise and you get hundreds added on every few years, then the 10 and 20 and 30 dollars for materials is less of a factor, however the makers time is still a factor, but mainly in such cases you are buying popularity.

...my own motivation for posting was merely to gain further insight into the immediately existing options.

It is a custom piece, any option should be immediate unless as noted there is an irrational attachment to the base choices. I have never seen a custom knife maker refuse to workout outside of the standard and I usually go well outside their starting options, often suggesting steels no one has used before.

Way back when no one was using CPM-3V, one of Mel Sorg's customers ask him to make a blade out of 3V, Mel usually made small D2 blades so a large chopper in 3V was a pretty large jump out of his standard fare, use a steel that almost no one was using in a blade pattern very different from what he usually ran, the blade turned out to be an exceptional piece though, the pictures are still on the net. Still kick myself for not having him make up a similar piece for me while he was around.

Note as well that when posting on a public forum, discussions are also in general, well just general, this thread becomes part of the knowledge bank not only on the prybaby but S30V, Ti and now even such side issues as materials vs cost. This is one of the benefits to side threading software seen on usenet readers where you can quickly overview the scope of the thread and then proceed down various paths.

You could argue that every side point should start its own thread but in this case discussion gets really fragmented and difficult to search through, as in most cases there is a lot of overlap, plus it is trivial to ignore what you don't want to see and appreciate that it may have value to others.

Lots of times I am discussing performance for example and people start talking about not liking the look of something, none of which are of any interest to me, because I don't care how knives look, but I realize that other people do care about such issues so I would not suggest people not post such ideas simply because I don't care to read them.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

It is a custom piece, any option should be immediate unless as noted there is an irrational attachment to the base choices.

And yet in another post you mentioned that it is costly for knifemakers to stock and switch steels. Which is it? Stock 48 different steels in 6 thickness options for every armchair metalurgist out there, or offer what you offer in the configuration you offer it for those who want it?

I tend to think that any maker can make whatever style of knife however they want in whatever materials they choose to and if someone comes along and suggests obscure steels or modifications to the design they have every right to refuse that person's request. But, I guess that makes me crazy. I asked Peter about the possibility of a 10xx knife with a hamon and he said "these are the materials I work in and I don't use 10xx steels.... Sorry!" I didn't go home and cry like a baby in my Corn Flakes. I've had people ask for some of my knives in this or that steel and my answer is the same thing "Sorry, I don't use that steel." We DO have the freedom to make what we want how we want it. And, you know what really shocks some people? We can charge whatever we please for it. Evidently the market buying Peter's tools don't mind the S30V/Ti choice, so either the market is completely stupid and know nothing about performance or metallurgy, or your choices for cheap steels and cheap prices are irrelevant.

 

[cardimon]

Couldn't someone just buy a Stanley Wonderbar II and cut it down to size?

I have one of those. Very handy. I wonder if some enterprising hobbyist ever tried to make one or cut one down to the size of a bottle opener -- something that would fit on a keychain.

 

[Trout Tamer]

unless as noted there is an irrational attachment to the base choices

Hmmm, I am going to assume you are speaking specifically about the base choices in this case. An attachment to these base choices is not necessarily irrational. Dictionary.com defines 'irrational' as "affected by loss of usual or normal mental clarity; incoherent, as from shock" and "marked by a lack of accord with reason or sound judgment: an irrational dislike". Given these definitions, I don't believe that an attachment to either S30V or titanium is irrational. In fact, S30V is one of the better steels out there and titanium is a great metal with some excellent properties. When I originally posted, I was wondering specifically about those 2 materials, since they are the 2 materials being offered. This brings us to the second point.

It is a custom piece, any option should be immediate

I think that, to an extent, you are right. If a piece is truly "custom", not only "handmade", then basically every aspect of the piece should be dictated by the customer. The use of the word "custom" lends itself to certain misunderstandings in the knife world. However, I disagree with your belief that all custom pieces should contain any option that the purchaser wants. This simply would not be possible, as there's probably not a person alive who can add any or every conceivable feature to a knife/tool. Our own humanity limits our abilities. In a word, none of us are perfect and capable of everything. IMO, to expect any given maker to add whatever option the customer desires is not reasonable. Not all makers can do certain things with their materials. Other makers are just very, very busy. yet other makers may not be sufficiently experienced with X materiial.
In terms of requesting specific steel, I agree that it is a good idea, especially if the knife has a particular intended purpose and a certain steel type will optimize its capabilities. However, I don't think it's wholly reasonable to expect any maker to be able to work all possible steels. Rather, if a certain maker can't make a knife with the requested steel, then there's nothing wrong with asking another trusted maker to work with you.

 

[martin j]

In fact, S30V is one of the better steels out there and titanium is a great metal with some excellent properties.

Platinum is also great material with some excellent properties, would you want a prybar in this material? Of course not because it is not optimal for prybar. Obviously this is extreme example, however the point is simply S30V is not nearly optimal either. Simply put a cheaper stainless steel like 420 (put aside non stainless carbon for moment) would give BETTER performance even if it were same price and not cheaper.

However, I disagree with your belief that all custom pieces should contain any option that the purchaser wants. This simply would not be possible, as there's probably not a person alive who can add any or every conceivable feature to a knife/tool. Our own humanity limits our abilities. In a word, none of us are perfect and capable of everything. IMO, to expect any given maker to add whatever option the customer desires is not reasonable. [.........]
In terms of requesting specific steel, I agree that it is a good idea, especially if the knife has a particular intended purpose and a certain steel type will optimize its capabilities. However, I don't think it's wholly reasonable to expect any maker to be able to work all possible steels.

This argument by you and others is disengenuous, no one saying it should be available in 50 (or even 5) differnt materials, only saying it should be available in more logical/ optimal meterial ESPECIALLY if that material is cheaper, easier to work with, & widely available.

Another way to put it- why should a maker go out of his way to make prybar tool out of S30v???? It is rarer, more expensiv, harder to grind, heat treat & finish then simple 420........ and in the end it performs poorer. OK maybe at this level of torquing etc it won't make a difference........ which raises agin obvious question, why go to trouble of using more expensive, less available and more difficault material for no gain in performance???

 

[Shann]

Platinum is also great material with some excellent properties, would you want a prybar in this material? Of course not because it is not optimal for prybar. Obviously this is extreme example, however the point is simply S30V is not nearly optimal either. Simply put a cheaper stainless steel like 420 (put aside non stainless carbon for moment) would give BETTER performance even if it were same price and not cheaper.



This argument by you and others is disengenuous, no one saying it should be available in 50 (or even 5) differnt materials, only saying it should be available in more logical/ optimal meterial ESPECIALLY if that material is cheaper, easier to work with, & widely available.

Another way to put it- why should a maker go out of his way to make prybar tool out of S30v???? It is rarer, more expensiv, harder to grind, heat treat & finish then simple 420........ and in the end it performs poorer. OK maybe at this level of torquing etc it won't make a difference........ which raises agin obvious question, why go to trouble of using more expensive, less available and more difficault material for no gain in performance???

Here's a great idea for you. Don't buy one. Problem solved. Peter Atwood makes great stuff; if its not for you don't buy it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...specifically about the base choices in this case.

No, just in general, though obviously it applies here as well. It is irrational to limit yourself to base choices on a *CUSTOM* piece simply because they are the default choices.

Now if you actually have a reason, it isn't irrational, that would be rational by defination. For example I think they are great choices from a maker point of view because both have high promotional values.

S30V is the current fad stainless and Ti has the "high speed" aspect and many people will see it as being superior to steels. As a user neither of these are solid arguements because your point of view isn't to help the maker sell knives but get the best tool for you.

As noted I don't even limit myself to the steels the maker has worked with, or even any maker has worked with before. This is one of the primary reasons to go custom. It isn't difficult to find makers who will do this, I have no doubt that lots won't though, in fact many don't even do their own heat treating.

In fact, S30V is one of the better steels out there and titanium is a great metal with some excellent properties.

The statement "one of the better steels" illustrates exactly the point I was making in the above, S30V is a fine steel for some applications, horrible for others, same for Ti, same for any other blade material.

I don't think it's wholly reasonable to expect any maker to be able to work all possible steels.

The materials I listed are common *PRODUCTION* steels with well known heat treatments, I can't imagine a maker saying they don't have the knowledge or ability to make a piece out of plain carbon steel or AISI 420.

-Cliff

 

[martin j]

Here's a great idea for you. Don't buy one. Problem solved. Peter Atwood makes great stuff; if its not for you don't buy it.

Relax! This is DISCUSSION forum, not sales forum

 

[Chiro75]

I can't imagine a maker saying they don't have the knowledge or ability to make a piece out of plain carbon steel or AISI 420.

Can you imagine a knifemaker saying they won't do it because they don't want to make it in one of those types of steels?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have never had it happen, and I suggest a lot more extreme substitutions all the time. I have even had makers disagree with me, I had one a few years back tell me that he was confident the steel would not work, I was confident it would, he was willing to make the knife in any case, this was a high REX steel, 70+ HRC, full hard, Johnson type edge profile.

There is a point of contention if the maker thinks the steel is really unsuitable, but if you are clear on why you want what you want and you are willing to take the risk and know the limitations then it should not be a problem, well it isn't for me anyway. I guess if you asked for something really odd there could be an issue.

Like if someone asked the Busse Custom shop for a large heavy blade in S30V. Busse is fairly vocal about not using that steel in large blades due to issues with prying and fracture, but assuming you could make some kind of rational arguement as to why you wanted it, and made him realize you were aware of the limitations he would probably go for it.

Now if you just phoned him up and said

"Hey, can you run me a Battle Mistress in S30V."

"That isn't a good idea due to problems with lateral strength and impact."

"Damm it, make me the blade or I'll tell everyone that no one likes you."

That probably would not work. As a side note, it would be probably be difficult to try to convince Alvin to work in any kind of stainless mainly because there is no rational arguement for it in the knives he makes (light use cuttiing knives), but likely amusing to try in any case.

There are monetary issues of course, if a maker can sell everything he makes in S30V and has no use for the other steels, and it is a small piece and that customer doesn't mean much, then there is obviously an arguement for saying no even if the user has a rational arguement. But thinking of the long term picture and good press and such, plus just experimenting with a new material should give pause to that.

Plus as a user you should have some give as well, for example if I suggest a really odd steel I make it clear that I can get the stock if that is a point of contention so they are not left with more material they have no use for. As noted, I never have a problem, but maybe it is my charming personality.

Then again the makers I gravitate towards are centered on performance and experimentalists at heart so it doesn't take much to get them to try something new, they are always doing it themselves anyway. They usually are faster on it than I am.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

No, just in general, though obviously it applies here as well. It is irrational to limit yourself to base choices on a *CUSTOM* piece simply because they are the default choices.

His knives are custom to what he wants to do. He values customer choice, but it does not define what he does, by what you want. There are all kinds of custom makers, some will do whatever with whatever, some have specific materials that they want to start with.

As noted I don't even limit myself to the steels the maker has worked with, or even any maker has worked with before. This is one of the primary reasons to go custom. It isn't difficult to find makers who will do this, I have no doubt that lots won't though, in fact many don't even do their own heat treating.

The statement "one of the better steels" illustrates exactly the point I was making in the above, S30V is a fine steel for some applications, horrible for others, same for Ti, same for any other blade material..

Cliff, I don't know what makers you commonly associate with, nor do I particularly care. A SPECIFIC user/buyer came into the Forums with a SPECIFIC question, which was answered to his satisfaction. Yet.....you are still writing.

Peter uses the metals listed, S30V or Ti. That is what he wants to use, and really will not be convinced that another material is in his best interest OR for the applied purpose of small using tools that will not experience that much torque or deflective strains.

The materials I listed are common *PRODUCTION* steels with well known heat treatments, I can't imagine a maker saying they don't have the knowledge or ability to make a piece out of plain carbon steel or AISI 420.

The maker is not saying that he CANNOT do other materials, he is saying that he is not interested in doing so. If a maker gives you that response, after some mild query as to why, take your business down the road to the next guy, if you want it that bad. Hell, I've got makers on my list that are taking 3 years to deliver a knife to me in ANY steel, let alone one that I am breaking their balls to make when they really don't want to.

Many makers develop specific heat treats to chosen metals based upon many factors. Many also have a tendency to "batch" heat treat. That is, each blade gets the same heat treat, but they do it on the same day/time frame. It is a way of maximizing productivity. Thursday is heat treat day. If you are mixing up too many different types of steels it screws up efficiency. I can tell you that more than half the makers that I deal with would hang up on you after 5 minutes. If you think that as a customer you get to dictate to a maker, you are dealing with some seriously accomodating makers. Getting a knife/tool should be a joint venture at best, where both parties involved have a vision, and work together to realize it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The maker is not saying that he CANNOT do other materials, he is saying that he is not interested in doing so. If a maker gives you that response, after some mild query as to why, take your business down the road to the next guy, if you want it that bad.

This is again not some kind of irrational faith based decision. If a maker refused to work with a steel when I had from my point of view a sensible arguement for that steel I would discuss it with them, as noted in the above. This provides the chance to learn for both of us as one of us is obviously missing something.

If a maker was that biased that they would not even discuss the why and how of what they did I can't see me ever being interested in them in the first place because quite frankly there is no shortage of makers who don't see customers as second class people and will discuss issues with them and not simply say "I am the maker here, listen to me or face my wrath."

If you think that as a customer you get to dictate to a maker...

Yeah I do, its my knife after all, so a custom pieces gets made how I want it, that is the main reason why I would go custom in the first place. Of course with any such issue you listen to the maker and don't go in with your ideas without the possibility of change.

For example I had intended a custom awhile ago to be in 1/16" steel, the maker argued that the steel would be too flexible in that size and a 1/8" blade with a full taper would be more versatile. We discussed it for a while, I did some work and went with his suggestion.

He was willing of course to build the other one.

-Cliff