Avoid

[Phil Elmore]

This thread details an abusive exchange with FreshlyChopped, to whom I sold a Cold Steel Safekeeper II for the sum of 30 USD.

This fellow originally contacted me wanting to know where his knife was after he paid for it through PayPal. I told him I had experienced a personal emergency and was therefore delayed in shipping. I have posted about the shipping delay affecting my most recent batches of sales, here in GBU. I have made every effort to get the knives to the buyers.

In response to my e-mail to him, I received this e-mail:

...Well, it has been a week since your last correspondence and more than enough time for the knife to have arrived, but I still have received no package. Once again I must ask if this knife has been sent yet, and if so, when it was sent, and how (envelope, box, etc.). If you could provide a tracking #, that would be even better. It has been two weeks since I sent payment to you and I feel that I have been very patient and understanding with your situation, but this is getting ridiculous. If you could please get back to me as soon as possible, I would appreciate it, Thank You.

I explained to him that I had attempted to ship his knife but that something about his address was rejected by Click and Ship, the service I use to do most of my shipping. I asked him to please confirm his address and the full spelling of it, thinking perhaps there was an abbreviation the service did not like.

Mr. Elmore,

For the third time, here is my address:

[redacted]

If your system is not accepting this, try just using [redacted] for the zip code; or, just write the above address on a package by hand and ship it out to me. Really, this is no insurmountable obstacle, and you certainly should have contacted me about it by now rather than me having to ask you. Again.

Mr. Elmore, you are the third vendor that I am currently having problems getting my merchandise from, and I am fed up with it, to say the least. Your case is certainly the mildest of the three, and I am not going to go ballistic-amateur-lawyer on you, but I am upset, and I would appreciate it if you would send my package out tomorrow (2/27) and provide me with a tracking or verification #. If you sent it overnight Express to offset the delays, I would not object, but I will accept Priority 2-day as offered last week. If I have not heard from you by the late afternoon, I will check back with you and make sure that this transaction is back on track, Thank You.

Getting a little irate at his tone, I told him that yes, I was indeed shipping his knife, and no, I was not ripping him off. I told him it was not fair to take out his frustration with other sales on me. Also, note that this "third time" giving me his address apparently counts as the second time the fact that he sent the address, unsolicited, immediately following his payment. Not having the address was never the issue; being unsure of why it was rejected by Click and Ship was the issue.

I offered him a full refund and would have included a percentage to cover the PayPal fees, as I always do when dealing with PayPal. He tried to blackmail me:

Mr. Elmore,

I would rather complete this transaction than cancel it, as it was my birthday present to myself (today is my birthday), and I have invested time and patience into making this transaction happen. I truly was trying to express my displeasure in a diplomatic way, as I do not believe you are trying to rip me off (as the other two vendors are); but you must understand that I am upset after promising to send my package ASAP last Friday and then finding out it still is not sent today, with no contact between. I am trying to put my feelings aside and would like to finish this business that we have started; if you could do the same and send my knife tomorrow, with or without tracking #, it would mean a lot to me, Thank You.

Phil,

As I stated, I never thought that you were trying to rip me off, nor was I taking out my anger at other vendors on you; I was simply sharing some of my current situation with you, as you had shared with me, so that you could better understand where I was coming from. If you feel that I have been unfair and unjustified in my actions, then I apologize, and in the spirit of peace I vow to not flame you on the forums and to keep our correspondences private if you ship the knife tomorrow. Deal?

Swallowing my displeasure at being extorted, I made sure the knife was packaged and submitted for shipping the next day. I received this e-mail:

Phil,

Did you send the package today, Mr. Elmore? I have not heard back from you since last night and would appreciate a response today, Thank You.

I told him it went out priority and that he would receive a click and ship notification when it processed. Click and Ship either didn't send him his notification, or it went into his spam folder (other buyers have received their notification subsequently). I got this e-mail:

I still have not received any confirmation from Click n Ship, which should take less than 24 hours, and I must ask you yet again if you have mailed this knife.

I lost my temper and let him have it, explaining that I was done with his abuse and that, yes, his knife had shipped (though now I wish I had followed my instincts and canceled the transaction).

I received the following e-mail (which I'm quoting only in part). I responded to it by telling him to go eff himself. Then I decided to post in GBU about this, because this is just way over the line, this whole transaction.

Mr. Elmore,

I entered into this agreement with you on good faith, paid you immediately, and sent you a duplicate copy of my address to avoid any mix ups at that time. I heard nothing from you for 7 days, so I contacted you again. When you responded to my inquiry, telling me of [the personal emergency] and promising to ship the knife ASAP, I did indeed express my sympathy, and in respect and good faith waited another week before contacting you (14 days since payment). To find out that you still had not sent my knife 7 days later, despite your assurance a week before, and that you again needed my address verified (which I had already provided of my own volition at the time of payment) was enough to convince me that you were not taking your end of this agreement very seriously, and I was understandably upset. Of course, you chose not to understand that, and instead wrote a somewhat nasty response, which also stipulated that you would not complete the transaction unless I agreed to forget what had happened and be happy with it. By no means was I happy with your bungling of this simple transaction, but I swallowed my pride and apologized to you and agreed to do what you had just asked me, as long as you agreed to send it the next day. For you to accuse me of blackmail for putting my own stipulation on yours is just ridiculous, especially after threatening to cancel the transaction just to avoid possible bad feedback. And you feel the need to tell me to go F@#& myself, as well?!?

Mr. Elmore, I honored my side of this agreement as soon as it was made, and have been patient and understanding of your situation. You have shown very little desire to complete your end of this transaction, having never once initiated contact with me after receiving payment, and have not made good on your promises throughout. When I contact you about said promises, you reply with hostile emails, willfully misinterpreting things I have said and telling me to go F@#& myself. I have endured your insults, your false promises, and your lack of communication; I attempted to treat you as a competent adult, but wound up having to plead with you and coax you like a petulant child, just to get you to fulfill your end of the agreement.

The feedback system does indeed serve a purpose, and in the future you may want to put more effort into earning good feedback (as opposed to demanding it) by taking your obligations more seriously.

Keep in mind that this whole thing was about a 30 dollar knife (USD) and that he's getting an extra sheath to go with it, to compensate him for the delay. Still, that wasn't good enough, and he had to send his abusive, disrespectful e-mails when things didn't go as quickly as he wished.

Avoid "FreshlyChopped" at all costs.

So, "FreshlyChopped," you just go right ahead and use that feedback system for its intended purpose. The knife you paid for has been shipped. I'm sorry that wasn't good enough for you, but my self-respect is worth more than thirty dollars plus paypal fees.

 

[Chinpo]

Whether the knife cost $3, $30 or $300, it shouldn't have any bearing on the quality of service in a transaction.
I understand that you had a personal emergency and I in no way doubt the voracity of this (I've read enough of your posts to consider you an honest man), and that of course it is more important than a knife sale.
However, we have heard the "family illness" and the "I was rushed to the ER" excuses from less trustworthy people before. As much as I like to give the benefit of the doubt, there does come a time when you have to draw the line and question the other party. If Freshlychopped hadn't read as many of your posts as I have on this forum, then it's possible that he may have put you into the less honest category.
His main problem seems to be that you told him the knife would go out asap after the initial 7 day delay. He waited another week to contact you (In deference to your situation) only to find out that you hadn't mailed it and that you needed his street address again because Click and Ship wouldn't accept it. This was 14 days after payment. If you were having problems with his street address, waiting for him to contact you first and then informing him of this problem does sound a little "bungled".

 

[Phil Elmore]

The fact that the queries were made was not the issue. It was the tone and attitude of them with which I take issue. (And his characterization of the "bungled" transaction is both insulting and inaccurate. I would have e-mailed him first if not for the fact that there was already an e-mail waiting.) An explanation is not an excuse, no, but there are limits to what any person should tolerate. I offered him a full refund and he refused it.

 

[Ren the devils trailboss]

I have done business with FC and Phil. I have known both men to be good buyers and Sellers. Nick has bought more than one knife from me.

But I gotta say dude..

I cannot believe that anyone would have such a fit over a $30 knife deal.

I once had a client of mine call me screaming and cursing at me because I had shipped him $200 worth of plants that he had canceled. But before the cancel was process the plants shipped. He was convinced I was screwing him.

I asked him one question.

RTDTB: Mark how long have we done business?
Mark: Three years
RTDTB: Well if I was going to screw you Mark I would have done it the first year and it sure as heck would have been for more than a measly $200!
Mark: Doh.......



come on man...the guy had a family emergency and you had Thirty Dollars invested in the deal. It ruined your birthday, you spent hours banging out emails to which every one Phil replied..countless hours of being pissed off and now there are hard feelings all around...

Was it worth it?? Where is the love here? the understanding? the patientce? I just do not get it. I think that you owe phil an apology...

Its just not worth all this misery..give the guy a break..

Oh BTW Phil...you can refund money on PP by simply going to the detail page of the transaction and at the very bottom in very small print is a link to refund. it will refund the buyer in full including his PP fee so you do not have to reimburse him the fee.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Thanks, Ren.

Now that the knife is shipped, I don't have the option of doing the refund, unfortunately. However, it's worth noting that Mr. ["Please remove my identity so I can go on harassing people"] will receive, by the end of the week (depending on Priority Mail shipping times), the knife he paid for in the condition he described, as well as an extra sheath for the same blade. That does not seem unreasonable to me, and I don't think I was unreasonable in dealing with him. I understand his initial concerns but I believe I've made a good faith effort to meet my obligations in this transaction, with extenuating circumstances factored in.

 

[ratstuph]

The thread was begging for this:

[youtube]OV7SNJ_duGQ[/youtube]

bungle: To handle badly; botch.

Phil,

You did bungle the shipping, at least for a couple of weeks. While I get you had life issues, whatshissnout doesn't know you, nor apparently that you have a strong rep. You didn't contact the man after his address was rejected. Sounds like that was the point the train started to leave the tracks. Hell, after the first week I would have been petulant (perhaps even flatulent) too.

While to some here a 30 American Dollar knife is hardly worth being concerned about, to many it is. I can remember being screwed on a $38 knife early in my addicti..., er collecting history. If I ran across those rapscallions today I would still give them one hell of a dirty look.

all da best,
rats...

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

Thirty bucks for a Safekeeper II with an extra sheath is a GOOD deal.

Sounds like Freshly Chopped has numerous issues unrelated to this transaction that made him a bit unbalanced. I hope this is temporary and that he is feeling better soon.

Crazy people and push daggers are a BAD combination.

 

[sunnyd]

Thirty bucks for a Safekeeper II with an extra sheath is a GOOD deal...

I believe the above pretty much sums up the final result!. :thumbup:

I would advise FreshlyChopped to move on at this juncture.

Further, perhaps even both parties should consider apologizing for their missteps in this particular transaction in the hopes of peace and tranquillity betwixt you fellows. If I was involved, that's what I'd do.




.. Or y'all could just keep bitch'n bout a $30. knife transaction .. Just kidding!. Life is way to short!!

 

[hotrodKelley]

Did i miss something here? Phil, I think you should edit your post.
You made the guy wait and wait. And then you are upset with him because he's upset that he's waited weeks, and then you ask him for his address 3 times? I don't really see what Santos has done wrong here.

 

[Tony_A]

I see besides this thread, you dinged him with negative feedback as well.

If he deserves all this mud-slinging for privately complaining to you about your ability to ship promptly, (extenuating circumstances or not,) what do you think you deserve for your own behavior?

No offense Phil, but it seems the person who screwed up in this transaction wasn't him, yet you started this GBU post recommending that others avoid him.

Of course, maybe I'm biased--I once had to deal with a shipping problem lasting several months from a guy using every excuse in the book, so I have little sympathy for late shippers who try to publicly play the victim in their transactions.

 

[Horizon_Seeker]

well, now I know who to avoid, and it's not the buyer.

 

[GregS]

I'm sure I'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, but he sounds far from being abusive. P*ssed off, yes. If you in fact literally told him, "go f*ck yourself", you are the abusive one. It would help if you included your emails as well(Phil), by not providing them it looks like you may have something to hide. I just don't see this as GBU material, sorry. I hope you guys work this out.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Most of my e-mails explain simply what I said in my message. I did not see any reason to beat up on the guy more than I have already, so I didn't include the full text of my e-mail telling him, in gory detail, why he had pushed me over the line and he could go [expletive] himself. I figure that pretty much speaks for itself.

Did i miss something here? Phil, I think you should edit your post.
You made the guy wait and wait. And then you are upset with him because he's upset that he's waited weeks, and then you ask him for his address 3 times? I don't really see what Santos has done wrong here.

I did not ask him for his address three times. I asked him once to confirm the complete spelling of his address because Click and Ship rejected it, on the same day that he sent an e-mail to me asking where the package was. (He originally sent me the same address twice.) I made him "wait and wait" because, as I have explained in a previous thread here in GBU, I had a personal issue that left me about two weeks behind.

I'm angry because I consider his e-mails to me abusive, disrespectful, and unreasonable. As I said, I understand being unhappy over a shipping delay -- but I believe the delay was a reasonable one with a reasonable explanation. At no time did I ignore him or refuse to address his questions. I shipped him his knife AND an item he didn't pay for, in an act of good faith. For this I got a lot of snide abuse, and I won't tolerate that from anyone.

 

[wolfmann601]

I would never sleep, get angry, become violent, reach for my 2X4 or post in GB&U over a $30.00 knife!!

But had the knife been $35.00 I would be clawing the walls, shoot holes in my bedroom walls, send death threats, tell the guy his momma________ (fill in the blanks), and lube up a 2X4!!!

Phil has been around here forever, maybe even longer and there is no question in my mind that he is an honest man. I suppose one would think of me as a ballsack if I balked at late delivery of a knife because the seller had a family emergency and then some difficulties in shipping. And one might think of me as a puke if I continually asked, insinuated, hinted or suggested to an honest man, a man of integrity and credibility that dishonesty was a factor in not shipping. Oh wait oh wait, this is about Phil!!

I have found that dealing on the internet requires constant communication and breakdowns, however so slight, seem huge!!!

Oh well, so are the days of our knives.................

 

[thombrogan]

I have found that dealing on the internet requires constant communication and breakdowns, however so slight, seem huge!!!

More meaningful words have been spoken, but truer words haven't.

 

[thefifth]

Does ASAP mean As Soon As Possible (for the seller)
Or does it mean Immediately?

 

[hotrodKelley]

It's not Phils fault, it's the "click and ships" fault.

Did you at least see if the guy got his knife before you flamed him here?

 

[roughedges]

It's not Phils fault, it's the "click and ships" fault.

Did you at least see if the guy got his knife before you flamed him here?

That's right HRK, "they" did it.


Phil is definitely an opinionated and outspoken guy, and so may or may not seem like a lot of things depending on one's perspective but, absent any actual proof to the contrary, anyone who accuses him of dishonesty is doing nothing more than exposing himself for a fool.

 

[Phil Elmore]

To me, "ASAP" means "As Soon as Possible," and I shipped the knife as soon as I could based on my other obligations. I also offered to compensate the buyer (or any of my buyers) if they were unhappy with the shipping delay, which affected ALL of them.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625069

I may be a lot of things, but one thing I've never been is a liar. If you honestly think I am trying to rip you or anyone off, please, don't ever buy anything from me. Neither of us wants the hassle.

 

[Phil Elmore]

On further consideration:

I'd have done anything reasonable to compensate the buyer for the delay, because even though I believe there were extenuating circumstances, the shipment is my responsibility. Had he said, "How about you ship the knife and send me 10 bucks to compensate me?" I'd have gladly done so. Had he accepted the refund, I'd have done that, too. All I ask is to be treated with respect and not snide condescension.

Maybe my standards are too strict. Maybe I'm unreasonable. I honestly don't know if compared to the average person, the demands I make of people who talk to me are too much. I simply won't allow someone to talk down to me; it isn't in my nature. I'll gladly own anything I do that's wrong. I've tried to be reasonable and civil. I certainly don't want to kill any future sales; I like being able to sell knives here when I need money or just don't want junk around.

But my self-respect is worth more to me than selling some knives, at any price. You tell me -- is that unreasonable? Is it unusual? Maybe so. If it is, it's my personality flaw, and I'll own that, too. Maybe I even owe Mr. [doesn't want anyone to know his name] an apology, and maybe I earned the negative feedback he's promised to send me. Maybe I'm not understanding enough. Maybe it's me that lacks patience.

I shipped him his knife and he'll have it with the extra sheath I threw in for free. He could turn around and sell it for more than I sold it to him, I'm sure. The delay can't be returned, of course; time is time and it goes one way. But I believe I made every effort and I was willing to just let the whole thing go until his last couple of pompous, obnoxious mails. People talk smack to me all the time online, but this is different; this is personal business. Nobody talks to me like that in a matter of personal business.