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The way I see it the worst thing about the entire deal is both are going to get what they want in the end but...
Negative feedback and a thread here to avoid dealing with one has already been started.
The other party will no doubt at least leave negative feedback, for not shipping promptly. (if not his own thread to avoid)
I myself view a negative rating as a last resort to be given when I'm actually screwed out of something, not just upset that the other party didn't act as nicely or promtly as I thought they should have.
That's just the way I see it and I value my 100% positive rating here, to the extent I'm careful to try keep it at 100%. Of course others may not see theirs exactly the same as I do.
But when it's all over and done both parties will have what they asked for. A couple of negative ratings seems a little extreme for a deal that nobody got screwed on, IMO.
 
Nobody talks to me like that in a matter of personal business.
__________________


Well he did and you shipped him the knife with an extra sheath. You should have just ignored him from that point on and refunded him the $$$
Life is too short to deal with A-holes in the "hobby" setting.
 
That's right HRK, "they" did it. :rolleyes:


Phil is definitely an opinionated and outspoken guy, and so may or may not seem like a lot of things depending on one's perspective but, absent any actual proof to the contrary, anyone who accuses him of dishonesty is doing nothing more than exposing himself for a fool.


I didn't accuse anyone of being dishonest. I feel that flaming a customer of yours after he send payment and did his part is well, wrong. If you can't be responsible enough to ship a package after somone pays you, it's not the customers fault, it's yours. Santos should be the one complaining, not phil.
 
Well, you're probably right about that. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened to somebody on this forum, and probably won't be the last.

I don't know. Did I overreact? Maybe by some people's standards. My standards may be too strict, I guess. But they're mine and I'll stand by them, and if that means there are people who don't want to buy from me in the future, I accept that.

I didn't accuse anyone of being dishonest. I feel that flaming a customer of yours after he send payment and did his part is well, wrong. If you can't be responsible enough to ship a package after somone pays you, it's not the customers fault, it's yours. Santos should be the one complaining, not phil.

He's free to do so, too. My problem isn't with the fact that he complained; it's with the fact that he was condescending and obnoxious about it. I'll go out of my way to make sure somebody's happy on a deal, but not if they treat me with disrespect. Am I being too demanding in my standards of what constitutes proper respect? Maybe, and if that's the case, it's my own fault. But I'll stand by it.
 
I won a Spyderco ATR off eBay last year and the seller just forgot to send it to me for 2 weeks. Even though I'd paid right away.
I asked him about it after waiting 10 days and he said his office had shipped it the day after the sale. I wasn't so nice about it because I knew it had not been shipped and we both got upset with each other.
In the end I got my knife left him positive feedback and he left me positive and we both said sorry, forgot about it and went our separate ways.
 
On further consideration:

I'd have done anything reasonable to compensate the buyer for the delay, because even though I believe there were extenuating circumstances, the shipment is my responsibility. Had he said, "How about you ship the knife and send me 10 bucks to compensate me?" I'd have gladly done so. Had he accepted the refund, I'd have done that, too. All I ask is to be treated with respect and not snide condescension.

Maybe my standards are too strict. Maybe I'm unreasonable. I honestly don't know if compared to the average person, the demands I make of people who talk to me are too much. I simply won't allow someone to talk down to me; it isn't in my nature. I'll gladly own anything I do that's wrong. I've tried to be reasonable and civil. I certainly don't want to kill any future sales; I like being able to sell knives here when I need money or just don't want junk around.

But my self-respect is worth more to me than selling some knives, at any price. You tell me -- is that unreasonable? Is it unusual? Maybe so. If it is, it's my personality flaw, and I'll own that, too. Maybe I even owe Mr. Santos an apology, and maybe I earned the negative feedback he's promised to send me. Maybe I'm not understanding enough. Maybe it's me that lacks patience.

I shipped him his knife and he'll have it with the extra sheath I threw in for free. He could turn around and sell it for more than I sold it to him, I'm sure. The delay can't be returned, of course; time is time and it goes one way. But I believe I made every effort and I was willing to just let the whole thing go until his last couple of pompous, obnoxious mails. People talk smack to me all the time online, but this is different; this is personal business. Nobody talks to me like that in a matter of personal business.



Lack of empathy is a hallmark of narcissistic disorders, and sufferers find it extremely difficult to understand others' (and their own) emotional states and impact. This makes maintaining close or intimate relationships significantly harder. They may find it difficult to perceive or admit this, or may interpret it as a virtue.

It is also worth noting that the individual expressions of grandiosity or arrogance vary with the person's value system. A person will generally attempt to display superiority as they define it.

-Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated

-Uses others to reach goals

-Exaggerates own importance

-Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance

-Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

-Seeks constant attention and positive reinforcement from others

-Is easily jealous

-Has a sense of extreme entitlement

-Is exploitative of others

-Lacks empathy

-Displays arrogant, haughty and proud behaviour.

-Uses denial mechanism to downplay own inadequacies or failings

-Uses rationalization mechanism to justify self-centered behavior



Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Pwned.
 
I won a Spyderco ATR off eBay last year and the seller just forgot to send it to me for 2 weeks. Even though I'd paid right away.
I asked him about it after waiting 10 days and he said his office had shipped it the day after the sale. I wasn't so nice about it because I knew it had not been shipped and we both got upset with each other.
In the end I got my knife left him positive feedback and he left me positive and we both said sorry, forgot about it and went our separate ways.

I wish this could have gone that way; I've done scores of sales, I think, and never had an issue like this one, but then, I've never experienced a shipping delay of this nature before, either. I really have tried to be reasonable about it.

I originally closed this thinking that there was no point hammering away unless "FreshlyChopped" wanted to have a say. In that case I supposed he could leave me negative feedback and he could even start his own thread about me, which would certainly be fair.

Having some time to think it over, I stand by every word I've said here. Oh, and "FreshlyChopped" got his knife yesterday, in the condition it was described, with the extra sheath I sent free of charge. Delivery confirmation indicates it got there early yesterday afternoon.
 
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$3.00 or $3 Million... I'd have been ticked after paying the money and then having to deal with slack shipping. If I make a deal with someone and they drag their feet holding up their end of the deal (For Whatever Reason) I won't deal with them again. Just MHO. On the flip side I wouldn't deal with someone that took way too long to pay me for a deal either.
 
Not for nothing, Phil, but you really ought to lock this down and let it die. This thread does not reflect well on you.
 
Well follks, I figure I'll add my two cents to this. First off, let me just say that it was completely unnecessary and very unprofessional of Phil to have published my personal information in this thread. If I wanted to reveal my name and where I live, I would have created a bio or used my real name as my forum handle. As Phil is a Professional Communicator and someone who works in the publishing field, I would have expected him to know better. For all those who took the time to edit my info from their posts, I Thank You for doing so.

I really don't want to invest the time and energy into posting my own thread on this, and even from Phil's partial account here I think its pretty evident that I was not being abusive. I was certainly angry, but I didn't even express it to Phil until after two weeks of feeling ignored and forgotten, and also discovering what he had been doing with his time since I paid him. You see, after two weeks I was starting wonder about Phil, so I followed the links at the bottom of his posts to his YouTube page, and this is what I saw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaQ2J7MFhw&feature=channel_page

A three minute hand puppet movie produced by and starring Phil, posted a few days after I had paid him. Hmmm. It was certainly a big slap in the face, and it let me know that his priorities were not in order.

Phil offered to refund my money after seeing I was upset, but I had already waited two weeks and I did not want him throwing my time away because of his lack of motivation. I let him know that all I wanted was for him to complete the transaction, and then he responds to me, and stipulates that unless I agree to be happy (read: don't give me bad feedback) he won't send the knife. My response to him, the alleged blackmail, was me AGREEING to his ridiculous request, but I wanted him to get it out the next day if I was going to do so. He should have sent the knife out as soon as he realized I was justifiably upset, but Mr. Elmore has displayed a notable lack of understanding and empathy throughout this transaction, despite asking for unquestioning sympathy from me.

I won't go into Mr. Elmore's email responses to me, suffice it to say he was abusive and irrational. It is worth noting that in one of his last rants to me, he did promise to display both sides of our communication if it went to the forums like this. I have to wonder why he only chose to publish part of my emails, and none of his, despite this assurance. Just don't call the man a liar.

It takes only a few minutes to send an email, no matter the circumstances, and I am sure that if he would have just taken the time to do so, I would have been much happier with him. I feel that Mr. Elmore could have done much more to ensure my happiness throughout this transaction, and that he really didn't need to create this thread in order slander me, let alone giving me bad feedback for being a prompt and patient buyer. I would like an apology from Mr. Elmore for having to put up with all of his crap, but I realistically don't think he would ever do so. His behavior was childish during our transaction, and it has only gotten worse since then. All I can say is that he did get the knife to me, and that truly was all that I wanted.
 
Well follks, I figure I'll add my two cents to this. First off, let me just say that it was completely unnecessary and very unprofessional of Phil to have published my personal information in this thread.

Your personal information, consisting of your name only, Mr. Nicholas W. Santos, was originally published in this thread because you had exactly one post to your name, for an account that was created last month. That means that you can easily abandon that non-paying account and create another and go right on being an obnoxious jerk without any consequences. When you e-mailed me complaining about this I removed your name from my posts, though not everyone who has commented subsequently did the same (despite the fact that you contacted every one of them for whom you were able to find information).

Now, had you left well enough alone I would have been content to leave it out of this thread. As you have felt it necessary to introduce personal irrelevancies, we'll just put it right back up there.

If I wanted to reveal my name and where I live, I would have created a bio or used my real name as my forum handle. As Phil is a Professional Communicator and someone who works in the publishing field, I would have expected him to know better. For all those who took the time to edit my info from their posts, I Thank You for doing so.

Actually, what I "know better" is that people who try desperately to hide their identities when it comes to matters of personal business probably have something to hide.

I really don't want to invest the time and energy into posting my own thread on this, and even from Phil's partial account here I think its pretty evident that I was not being abusive.

My "partial account" leaves out only the very profane message I ultimately sent you. It is a completely fair accounting of the exchange and, frankly, after rereading it I find it very obvious to me that you were disrespectful and abusive. Now, not everyone is going to agree, and that's fine. Frankly, anyone who thinks the way you chose to speak to me is okay and is justified is someone with whom I would rather not do business.

I was certainly angry, but I didn't even express it to Phil until after two weeks of feeling ignored and forgotten, and also discovering what he had been doing with his time since I paid him.

And this attitude is precisely your problem. Let us first watch you dig your hole -- and then we'll fill it in for you:

You see, after two weeks I was starting wonder about Phil, so I followed the links at the bottom of his posts to his YouTube page, and this is what I saw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaQ2J7MFhw&feature=channel_page

A three minute hand puppet movie produced by and starring Phil, posted a few days after I had paid him. Hmmm. It was certainly a big slap in the face, and it let me know that his priorities were not in order.

I realize that the need to find some solace in something innocuous during a time of personal grief is probably lost on someone like you, who has neither empathy nor understanding for anyone else's situation. If you cared to conduct an extensive investigation, Nicholas W. Santos, you would find that I was also posting on Bladeforums during this period. The problem was that I was not physically where the knives were located, and I could not begin to catch up on my shipments until I returned.

Once I did return to work, I had to balance dealing with those shipments with catching up with work, which proved to be no small task. This, too, is not something I would expect you to understand.

Frankly, even the fact that you would introduce this makes me sick -- and it also makes me feel completely vindicated in posting about you here.

Phil offered to refund my money after seeing I was upset, but I had already waited two weeks and I did not want him throwing my time away because of his lack of motivation. I let him know that all I wanted was for him to complete the transaction, and then he responds to me, and stipulates that unless I agree to be happy (read: don't give me bad feedback) he won't send the knife.

This is a blatant lie.

First, I sent this:

Why don't I just refund your money?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Then, when you replied, I sent this:

Nicholas,

No, I am not trying to rip you off. And I really did try to ship the knife today so that I could respond to your e-mail with a tracking number. You have not heard from me, and your knife has not been shipped, because my financial livelihood depended on me getting certain projects done within the last week -- projects that were delayed, almost disastrously so, by the [personal emergency] the week before. [redacted]...My problems have no bearing on the transaction and they are not an excuse, but understand that I have been averaging about three hours of sleep per night, trying desperately to catch up AND to package and ship all the knives I sold in a desperate attempt to pay certain bills that came due during this trying time.

To then receive an e-mail from you that drips with scorn and attitude was, quite frankly, more than I am willing to tolerate from any human being. I try to make a good faith effort to meet my obligations, and I would have been happy to compensate you for the delay in some way (as I said earlier, I am already enclosing an extra sheath with the knife). I also believe it is quite unfair to take out on me your dissatisfaction with other people's sales. I take [expletive] from no human being. Frankly, my self-respect is worth 30 dollars and the additional percentage to compensate you for the PayPal fee.

Now, if we can set all this aside and agree to complete the transaction to mutual satisfaction, AND if you will really be happy with the transaction despite what has occurred to this point, I will gladly ship the knife tomorrow. If, however, I cannot satisfy you to the degree that you do not feel inclined to send me angry e-mails, I will refund you your 30 dollars plus 10 percent to compensate you for PayPal fees and time lost, a total of 33 USD.

We all have our limits. Inadvertently or no, you crossed mine with the last e-mail. If this was unintentional, there is no issue and all is well. If you are not happy, however, then I am not happy, and I would rather restore your funds to you plus interest.

Phil

So you see, this is QUITE DIFFERENT than insisting that you forget everything and that you refuse to leave me negative feedback. Quite the contrary, it says that I want you REALLY to be happy -- in other words, if completing the transaction won't TRULY make you happy and you're still going to be full of resentment, I'd rather not keep your money...

continued below...
 
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...continued from above...

I note also, Mr. Santos, that you conveniently leave out, in your mischaracterization of this point, that I was also going to send you your funds PLUS INTEREST.

My response to him, the alleged blackmail, was me AGREEING to his ridiculous request, but I wanted him to get it out the next day if I was going to do so. He should have sent the knife out as soon as he realized I was justifiably upset, but Mr. Elmore has displayed a notable lack of understanding and empathy throughout this transaction, despite asking for unquestioning sympathy from me.

Your response to me was extortion, plain and simple -- telling me you would not leave me negative feedback if I simply agreed to ship your knife the next day.

Your knife was shipped the next day and you STILL sent me another obnoxious, condescending e-mail.

I won't go into Mr. Elmore's email responses to me, suffice it to say he was abusive and irrational. It is worth noting that in one of his last rants to me, he did promise to display both sides of our communication if it went to the forums like this. I have to wonder why he only chose to publish part of my emails, and none of his, despite this assurance. Just don't call the man a liar.

Frankly, I was doing you a FAVOR by refusing to publish that e-mail, but now that you've chosen to lie about that, too, Mr. Santos, I'm going to post it in its entirety:

Nicholas, I've tried to be understanding because I realize it has taken me quite some time to ship your knife. I've explained why that was the case; I believe that explanation was serious enough to warrant the delay. When you first expressed your dissatisfaction, I gave you the option of a full refund, which you declined. Therefore, I am now, I'm going to make a suggestion. Please read very carefully.

Almost anyone else with whom I've done business would have framed your query along the lines of...

"Hi, Phil, I know you said you shipped that knife, but I didn't get the click and ship notification. I was wondering if you could send the tracking information?"

To this I would have responded, "Sure, Nicholas. I'm not sure why it hasn't processed yet; I submitted your package to the mail room on Friday. The tracking number is...


Priority Mail Small Flat Rate Box # [this was the real tracking number, but I removed it from the paste of the e-mail -- Phil] (Sequence Number 3 of 7)
Shipped to: NICHOLAS SANTOS
[redacted]

...and then I would have assured you that the both the knife, and the extra sheath for that knife that I mentioned finding and including at no charge, were on their way to you, and that I would be very surprised if you did not have them before the end of the week, though one never knows with the USPS and its actual shipping times."

That would be an exchange based on civility and mutual respect. It is how the majority of my transactions have gone.

Your e-mail, on the other hand, like your other e-mails before this one, seems tailor-made to prompt in me the urge to tell you TO GO [EXPLETIVE DELETED] YOURSELF.. I offered to send you a full refund when you were not satisfied with the explanation I gave you for the shipping delay. Most of the people whom I've informed of the [personal emergency] responded along the lines of, "Wow, man, sorry to hear that. Take as much time as you need." You, on the other hand, have been so consistently insulting and haughty in your e-mails that I considered very strongly refunding your [bleeping] money ANYWAY, because, frankly, no 30-dollar transaction is worth the disrespect you have shown me. But it gets worse:

You attempted to blackmail me by saying that you would not "flame me" on Bladeforums if only I shipped your knife on Friday, and while that bothered me quite a bit, I wanted you to have the knife and so I shipped anyway despite my misgivings about this type of extortion.

So, your knife is, indeed, on its way to you, despite your repeated, insulting implications that I am somehow ripping you off. What's more, if you choose to flame me on BFC in violation of your own extortion, that is your right -- but know that you have pushed me to the point that I will make sure everybody there knows just what a colossal prick you've been to me this whole time. I will make this entire e-mail exchange public. I'm entirely comfortable with any judgment our fellow forumites choose to make based on their assessment of your e-mails and mine. Are you?

So, that's where it stands. You can either take me at my word, now that the knife has been shipped and I no longer have the option of canceling the deal, or you can go on e-mailing me abusive [expletive], knowing that you've crossed the line with me and I'm not going to tolerate it any more. If you choose the latter and decide to post something negative about me, you can also rest assured that I wll make BOTH sides of the interaction known.

I don't take [expletive] from anyone, and I'm thoroughly sick of yours. I might hazard a guess that the reason your other purchases aren't going to your satisfaction is that you probably treat everyone this way.

Phil Elmore

I believe this e-mail makes my case pretty sensibly. It's certainly not "irrational." It is also obvious that I was quite angry when I wrote it, and I thought I would spare Mr. Santos further kicking while down. He, however, seems determined to drag it back out, so there it is.

It takes only a few minutes to send an email, no matter the circumstances, and I am sure that if he would have just taken the time to do so, I would have been much happier with him. I feel that Mr. Elmore could have done much more to ensure my happiness throughout this transaction, and that he really didn't need to create this thread in order slander me, let alone giving me bad feedback for being a prompt and patient buyer. I would like an apology from Mr. Elmore for having to put up with all of his crap, but I realistically don't think he would ever do so. His behavior was childish during our transaction, and it has only gotten worse since then. All I can say is that he did get the knife to me, and that truly was all that I wanted.

The only person who has put up with any crap here, Mr. Santos, is me. You have been incredibly unreasonable. You will get no apology. It is you who owe ME an apology, not merely for your actions to date, but for your mischaracterization of the exchange in this thread.

I have two regrets now. The first is that I did not simply refund your money with interest when you originally proved to be condescending and rude. The second is that I spent any time feeling I might have overreacted in posting this thread. If I was at all concerned about that, you have eliminated my concerns and then some.

I strongly urge everyone here to avoid Mr. Nicholas W. Santos in all future sales. I realize that to some people, what he said to me was not abusive, and further, that there are members here who look at his two-post history and his registration last month, and feel it makes no difference that I've spent a decade and thousands of posts contributing positively to this forum (or that I have conducted thousands of dollars in sales here without a problem). To you, I can only say that I'm sorry we don't share the same standards of what is acceptable or reasonable in a situation like this, and I would further hope that you don't want anything I'm selling in the future, because we'll probably both be happier.

To those of you who, however, have spoken up in my defense, or left me positive feedback in the last few days, you have my thanks. I've learned a great deal in the course of this single transaction, and in the last few weeks of my life. I don't believe that lesson has come at too harsh a price. We can only wonder if Mr. Santos disagrees.
 
You need to learn the definition of the term "professional." When you chose to introduce personal irrelevancies in an attempt to attack me, you lost the right to make that request of me. You'll get no consideration now.

I tried to make this transaction right with you. Instead of accepting that OR A REFUND PLUS INTEREST, you chose to be "unprofessional." You also chose to be condescending, disrespectful, and rude. That was your choice. I was originally at fault for the shipping delay, though most of my buyers understood there were mitigating circumstances. I would have done anything reasonable to make up for that, including compensating you financially. Just recently, I paid to ship an item international express mail to Russia because the buyer complained about the slow shipping time -- but the difference was, he complained with respect.

The notion of mutual respect and mutual satisfaction is lost on you, clearly.
 
Phil, you ARE kidding, right?

About the entirely self-serving and delusional oppression of one you're suffering here thru your own inabililty to simply communicate or just admit YOU FUCKED UP AND THIS IS WHY THE GUY GOT PISSED?

Maybe again you need to go re-read this episode, turn off the "Phil Elmore, Superhero" filter and instead read your own actions as maybe not in a comic book, but you as a self-centered asshole who's perfectly used to pretending to be an internet alphamale. In REAL LIFE, you screwed up by not just sending the gent who paid you a simple email apologizing.

Yes, I still have you on ignore, but I just had to tune in and read your two-page defense of your actions. Cannot say I am surprised - you always have at least appeared honest in your commercial dealings with people, but as far as "Nobody talks to you this way," buddy, get the hell over yourself. You're likely an asshole in real life, becuase you sure are one here. This never got personal until you made it so. You posted this guy's name here because you fucked up? NOTHING is clearer in this entire retarded episode. You've not been slighted in the most minor way. You brought this out all by your little pathetic lonesome and anyone supporting your actions here, you ought to be exceptionally and may I suggest HUMBLY grateful for their willingness to overlook your bullshit.

And yes, YOU owe HIM an apology. Did you ever apologize to him for your lack of proper action without leaving yourself a back door thru which you could caveat yourself to greater personal glory?

I look forward to you posting at least two replies. You're still on Ignore, Street Sword, but it certainly will be entertaining to see you post several more times, and while a bug zapper is entertaining as well, it at least provides a positive and useful function to the community. You're currently providing noise and sparks, but the current signal-to-noise ratio out of you is distressingly low.
 
No, I don't owe him an apology. I stand by what I've posted here. Obviously in your case you already have a problem with me, and I can understand that; there are always spectators looking to jump on when somebody they dislike comes into conflict with someone else. There will even be those who, looking at this from outside of the situation, honestly believe he's right and I'm wrong. I'm okay with that, too.

I won't compromise either my principles or my personal boundaries, however. Like I said, I should have just refunded him his money to start, but I foolishly believed I was dealing with someone who could be reasonable.

The issue was never that he was upset. I would have refunded him his money and compensated him at any time for that. The issue was that he was disrespectful and rude. I don't tolerate that.
 
Its a sad state of affairs when people are worried about their real names showing up on an internet forum.
 
phil

you are being unreasonable and petulant

he paid you. you had an emergency of some sort. it happens. people generally do understand. however you found time to post EVERY day since 2/12. a lot of posts actually.

this should have remained private. your rambling posts makes you look like a fool, and a small minded one at that
 
Yes, I did, as I have explained. It was Mr. Santos who was unreasonable and petulant. I made every effort to compensate him and he was still obnoxious about it. That crosses a line with me and I won't tolerate that behavior.

There's nothing "rambling" about my posts.
 
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