It would be best to keep it inside your pocket. I had lunch yeaterday with a Deputy Chief of the NYPD ( and old friend and former co worker), and after complaining about women, taxes and all else, I talked knife law with him. He made it clear there was a zero tolerance for any knife carry and officers are told to make an arrest without many exceptions. I discussed the construction workers arrests, and he clearly understood why they happened and felt the officers were following their instrcutions. The one other guy with us at lunch is a building manager who had a leather man on his belt under his suit jacket. He asked the Chief if that was illegal to carry that way and the responses was there some officers that would arrest you....When it comes to knives I would stay away from carrying one in NYC. I had invited him out to lunch to celebrate his second marriage, so I was treating, but I asked him if he knew the one and only time a non LEO could carry a switchblade or gravity knife and bet him the costs of lunch...He had no clue about the fishing/hunting/tracking exception. I still paid for lunch, but my point is the NYPD stops reading section 265.20 of the PL right after they understand they can carry what they want. They do not read what you can legally do, and they don't seems to care....Things have changed since my day for sure...
Axis lock a gravity knife?
- Thread starter Mephtyrm
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im letting Tom field all the further answers from here on out .. people either dont believe me or want to argue about police being over zealous, or call me a bigot and genocidal racist... I get up i do my job i collect a paycheck and support my family (right up till i leave in June) Ive been called every name in the book and have had no support from the forum or mods when i try to explain or defend myself ..
Tom is more than capable of answering your questions
Tom is more than capable of answering your questions
Good idea.
dogboye
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Very helpful info, thanks for that!
I was just looking for an opinion from someone on the job, I certainly meant no disrespect whatsoever, and didn't think my post implied any disrespect, disbelief, etc, at all.
Your chosen profession is your business, not mine, and it's not my place to judge how any man chooses to support his family. Stay safe on the job and God Bless.
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commonly known as a chickensh!t stop
The original intent of this thread was overwhelmed by a discussion of NYC and their interpretation of NYS knife laws. The definition of "gravity knife" in NY is that through the use of gravity or centrifugal force the knife can be deployed and locked. I only recently bought a cheap (free) axis lock knife. In one out of every 3 or so tries I can deploy and lock the blade with a hard flick of the wrist and no movement of the lock. I suspect with some practice I could do it 90% of the time. I would assume an LEO or prosecutor could do the same.
I was intrigued with being able to deploy the knife this way so I went back and tried a few more and found that nearly all my folders can, with a bit of practice, be deployed this way. I wonder if this is the case with the majority of folders and, more importantly, is the definition the same in most states?
Going beyond my experience and attempting to extrapolate to other knives; I suspect any current folding knife could be defined as a gravity knife. I don't know of any that have a positive lock in the closed position. If there is no positive lock, it's only a matter of the amount of centrifugal force that can be applied. As long as there is no positive lock and the blade center of gravity is beyond the pivot (in either direction); the knife could theoretically be proved to be a gravity knife.....
I was intrigued with being able to deploy the knife this way so I went back and tried a few more and found that nearly all my folders can, with a bit of practice, be deployed this way. I wonder if this is the case with the majority of folders and, more importantly, is the definition the same in most states?
Going beyond my experience and attempting to extrapolate to other knives; I suspect any current folding knife could be defined as a gravity knife. I don't know of any that have a positive lock in the closed position. If there is no positive lock, it's only a matter of the amount of centrifugal force that can be applied. As long as there is no positive lock and the blade center of gravity is beyond the pivot (in either direction); the knife could theoretically be proved to be a gravity knife.....
I have sat in court and watched officers take several tries to get the knife to flick open once, and most judges have allowed it to be called a gravity knife even if it took the officer a few tries. Most officers make sure it is flickable before court if they know they will be required to show how it opens. They practice in the locker room etc....I have seen a judge allow the blade to be held and the handles flicked open and I have other judges not allow that method ( the one who allowed it did it to a Syderco and told how that was a Spydie drop, so I do think that influenced the judge to allow it)...
That's about what I figured. I even have a Buck, MaxLite I think, that I can't adjust nor can I flick it open with my thumb like most of the rest of my knives. I can, however, flick it open with a couple of rather violent flicks of the wrist. I am able to flick open nearly all the knives in my possession including liner, frame, axis and back locks. I would imagine most any knife could be flicked open if it has enough blade for a good grip and the handle was flicked. It would be simpler if the city just banned knives all together rather than pervert the state law as it has been practiced in the past.
I think I'll leave my knife at home for the game next week; wouldn't want to frighten the muggers....
I think I'll leave my knife at home for the game next week; wouldn't want to frighten the muggers....
I posted this before but here is a prime example of what the NYPD feels is a gravity knife. I do believe the officer was looking to issue a summons for an exposed knife at first but then things went down hill from there....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oe-C-9MYVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oe-C-9MYVc
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I have to wonder if a defense couldn't be mounted on the grounds that the knife was unintentionally tampered w/ between the time it was confiscated and when it was produced at the hearing/trial by the presenting officer's pre-hearing "practice" . Might be worth it to ask any arresting officer to open it "gravity knife" style at the time of arrest. If they couldn't, or refuse to do so, one could claim that the knife was tampered with or had it's operational characteristics changed by repeated abuse. As part of this defense one's lawyer could bring in a similar (or identical) model with the pivot pin cranked down and ask the officer to open it. Then open the screw a little or grab the blade and force it side to side to open up the pivot point and show how that sort of treatment could turn your legit knife into a gravity knife. Of course this would have to be allowed by the judge in the first place, and that might lead to the DA not getting a conviction...
HH
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''Those who will trade liberty for security deserve niether liberty nor security.''Benjamin Franklin
And that's how I feel on the bs nyc knife laws. I'm a NJ resident and I am terrified of those bs laws crossing the hudson. I was stopped in nyc for a blur I was carrying . The cop noticed half a clip sticking out from under my shirt from 100ft away in his car. Maybe he was superman, I have no idea how he saw it. Luckily he let me go because my record is squeeky clean but it almost wasn't after that day .
One other funny side note. Walk into a walmart in NJ and the 3 inch folder is behind lock and key that you need a worker to get. Funny part, in another section of the store a 8 inch chefs knife is on the bottom shelf no lock. I remember reading somewhere that 80 percent of nyc stabbings happen with kitchen knives. Soon they will be randomly raiding your apt to make sure all kitchen knives are of the skinny plastic variety!
I really only see one way around the nyc knife laws. Setup a permit rd 250 dollars a year for knife carry.to obtain this permit you would have to have a clean record. An abid knife user will find out about this law and pay the permit. A criminal on the other hand carrying a knife for bad things will not be willing to pay and can be arrested. Nyc gets their extra money ,let's be honest its always about the dough and knife users get to carry.
And that's how I feel on the bs nyc knife laws. I'm a NJ resident and I am terrified of those bs laws crossing the hudson. I was stopped in nyc for a blur I was carrying . The cop noticed half a clip sticking out from under my shirt from 100ft away in his car. Maybe he was superman, I have no idea how he saw it. Luckily he let me go because my record is squeeky clean but it almost wasn't after that day .
One other funny side note. Walk into a walmart in NJ and the 3 inch folder is behind lock and key that you need a worker to get. Funny part, in another section of the store a 8 inch chefs knife is on the bottom shelf no lock. I remember reading somewhere that 80 percent of nyc stabbings happen with kitchen knives. Soon they will be randomly raiding your apt to make sure all kitchen knives are of the skinny plastic variety!
I really only see one way around the nyc knife laws. Setup a permit rd 250 dollars a year for knife carry.to obtain this permit you would have to have a clean record. An abid knife user will find out about this law and pay the permit. A criminal on the other hand carrying a knife for bad things will not be willing to pay and can be arrested. Nyc gets their extra money ,let's be honest its always about the dough and knife users get to carry.
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when presenting previously booked evidence in court, i generally take the sealed package and only open it in court upon request. this prevents any accusation of tampering.
however, not all evidence is packaged and sealed, depending on the size and type of the item. it is also possible sealed evidence is opened for some form of testing, ie gsr, fingerprints, etc.
in this type of case, presenting a similar item would be irrelevant, especially if the characteristics are not identidal. you can't claim the evidence has been tampered with, then present another peice of tampered evidence to prove this. non sequitor.
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When I say "similar" I mean the exact same model of knife. Would it not present some questions if the arresting officer made the arrest based on a "gravity knife" but at the scene declined to put said knife to the test? In a situation like this there is no more evidence to be gathered, and if the knife wasn't capable of being flicked open at the time, in the presence of all the principal players, why shouldn't there be some doubt if it is only proven to be a functional gravity knife after the fact? Considering the current downstate interpretation is based entirely on function and not necessarily the design of the knife, it takes very little to turn an illegal knife into a legal one and back again using noting more than a tork head driver or allen wrench. I now carry a fixed blade because nearly all of my folders could be flicked open even with the pivot screw cranked tight simply by wiggling the blade violently from side to side for a few seconds, even though they will stay legal if only opened and closed in a normal manner.
HH
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i probably should have read the whole thread here.... but i have one question for the LEO reading this. this is a totaly hypotheticle question so please dont over-analyze it. im just trying to make a point. let me phrase it like this:
say for instance, in NYC, a bigot senator helps in passing a law that prohibits black people from wearing dark clothing because it helps them sneak up on women at night. aids therefore, aids in rape. and its a felony.
now would you enforce such a clearly insane, unreasonable law? i would hope that the answer is no. otherwise, i would say that you should arrest the people for not DEMANDING for a complete and total police reform of NYC. you see the thing is, that "im just doing my job" isent an answer. enforcing tight, unrealisticly stupid, and overly strict laws are unnecissary. i personnaly have respect for the police around here, but honestly cant say that i like them until i meet them (the decent ones at least). as police officers its understandable that sometimes oyul have to use tactics to get criminals to incriminate themselves. but when you use them on people who arent doing anything wrong, then your just de-huminizing them. but the disgusiting thing is, AS LAW ENFORCMENT OFFICERS, YOU DO NOT SEEK JUSTICE, YOU SEEK CONVICTION. and that, is what trully disgusts me. you look at all the evidence, but you only use what is neccissary for conviction. now back to the subject. i can live without a switchblade or an auto. i can even live without carrying a pocket knife with a blade over "2. as long as i werw able to get a conealed carry weapons permit. but wait a second, the police dont like to hand those out. its unconstitutional. the gun laws, AND the knife laws. now im sure im going to get alot of "if you dont like it, move" comments. but do you know what, i shouldent have to. i should be able to change the laws and vote on reform with my fellow citizens. but even THAT, is borderline impossible. at least when it comes to little things like the length of a pocket knife blade thats legal, or oh, i dont know, HOW MANY TERMS OUR MAYOR CAN HAVE!!! now granted, i dont think all laws and government are stupid, and yap yap yap. i belive, that the people should not be punished. but that criminals should. you think stopping a law abiding citizen from concealing a firearm is goign to lower crime? you think that its going to stop criminals? all your doing is disarming the law abiding citizens that pay you. and the reason im saying that YOU do it, even though you only enforce the laws, you should be alloud to question them. and its sad that you dont. it truly truly is. this city has become borderline totalitarian. ive seen police brutalitly. it makes me sick. it should make YOU sick as well. i had an encounter with the police once where they stopped me on the street as i was carrying my package back from the mail truck (i walked up to the truck to get it) and i was asked a few questions. they asked me a few questions. that was it. or at least, you would think that was it right? they spoke to me in such a de-huminizing tone, so authortativly, that i felt depressed for at least a week. i felt like i had just gotton the crap beat out of me. all in all i guess im just mad that the laws in NYC are sometimes a little pointless. but im just mad that its so hard to change them. and in the end its not even up to the people. im also a little mad that donald trump can get a concealed carry permit, but i cant. wich is odd, because niether of us are convicted felons. but oh wait, hes rich and well connected. shows how deep the corruption spirals down. and i guess that was more then one question lol :foot:
say for instance, in NYC, a bigot senator helps in passing a law that prohibits black people from wearing dark clothing because it helps them sneak up on women at night. aids therefore, aids in rape. and its a felony.
now would you enforce such a clearly insane, unreasonable law? i would hope that the answer is no. otherwise, i would say that you should arrest the people for not DEMANDING for a complete and total police reform of NYC. you see the thing is, that "im just doing my job" isent an answer. enforcing tight, unrealisticly stupid, and overly strict laws are unnecissary. i personnaly have respect for the police around here, but honestly cant say that i like them until i meet them (the decent ones at least). as police officers its understandable that sometimes oyul have to use tactics to get criminals to incriminate themselves. but when you use them on people who arent doing anything wrong, then your just de-huminizing them. but the disgusiting thing is, AS LAW ENFORCMENT OFFICERS, YOU DO NOT SEEK JUSTICE, YOU SEEK CONVICTION. and that, is what trully disgusts me. you look at all the evidence, but you only use what is neccissary for conviction. now back to the subject. i can live without a switchblade or an auto. i can even live without carrying a pocket knife with a blade over "2. as long as i werw able to get a conealed carry weapons permit. but wait a second, the police dont like to hand those out. its unconstitutional. the gun laws, AND the knife laws. now im sure im going to get alot of "if you dont like it, move" comments. but do you know what, i shouldent have to. i should be able to change the laws and vote on reform with my fellow citizens. but even THAT, is borderline impossible. at least when it comes to little things like the length of a pocket knife blade thats legal, or oh, i dont know, HOW MANY TERMS OUR MAYOR CAN HAVE!!! now granted, i dont think all laws and government are stupid, and yap yap yap. i belive, that the people should not be punished. but that criminals should. you think stopping a law abiding citizen from concealing a firearm is goign to lower crime? you think that its going to stop criminals? all your doing is disarming the law abiding citizens that pay you. and the reason im saying that YOU do it, even though you only enforce the laws, you should be alloud to question them. and its sad that you dont. it truly truly is. this city has become borderline totalitarian. ive seen police brutalitly. it makes me sick. it should make YOU sick as well. i had an encounter with the police once where they stopped me on the street as i was carrying my package back from the mail truck (i walked up to the truck to get it) and i was asked a few questions. they asked me a few questions. that was it. or at least, you would think that was it right? they spoke to me in such a de-huminizing tone, so authortativly, that i felt depressed for at least a week. i felt like i had just gotton the crap beat out of me. all in all i guess im just mad that the laws in NYC are sometimes a little pointless. but im just mad that its so hard to change them. and in the end its not even up to the people. im also a little mad that donald trump can get a concealed carry permit, but i cant. wich is odd, because niether of us are convicted felons. but oh wait, hes rich and well connected. shows how deep the corruption spirals down. and i guess that was more then one question lol :foot:
*This is not legal advice, and only pertains to California*
** And sorry to raise a dead thread LOL **
*** And sorry for the extra asterisks! ***
For California, it says:
"2 or more inches"
(which yes, most Axis/Crossbar locks have this)
.
"can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever"
(Yes this is also true, the blade is "released" and can be used after the manipulation of a mechanism)
.
"does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position"
(Here's the sauce, ' "does NOT include a knife that... has a... mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade." To my understanding, ALL axis/crossbar locks I've seen require the user to overcome the lock spring to open the blade.)
.
.
.
So imho, because axis/crossbar locks require overcoming the spring resistance and isnt just a "lock" lock, they're all not considered gravity or switchblade knives.
P.S. In the Federal Switchblade Act, it just defines the knives as
Which most axis/crossbar lock knives I've seen dont fall 100% in either category.
Not (B1) Because the manipulation of the device (AXIS/Crossbar lock) ALONE doesnt actuate anything, unless it's a spring automatic knife by design
Not (B2) Becasuse the use of inertia/gravity/Or Both ALONE doesnt actually actuate anything, especially with a bias to remain closed as applied by the crossbar lock.
.
.
.
Thanks for reading!
** And sorry to raise a dead thread LOL **
*** And sorry for the extra asterisks! ***
For California, it says:
"2 or more inches"
(which yes, most Axis/Crossbar locks have this)
.
"can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever"
(Yes this is also true, the blade is "released" and can be used after the manipulation of a mechanism)
.
"does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position"
(Here's the sauce, ' "does NOT include a knife that... has a... mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade." To my understanding, ALL axis/crossbar locks I've seen require the user to overcome the lock spring to open the blade.)
.
.
.
So imho, because axis/crossbar locks require overcoming the spring resistance and isnt just a "lock" lock, they're all not considered gravity or switchblade knives.
P.S. In the Federal Switchblade Act, it just defines the knives as
Which most axis/crossbar lock knives I've seen dont fall 100% in either category.
Not (B1) Because the manipulation of the device (AXIS/Crossbar lock) ALONE doesnt actuate anything, unless it's a spring automatic knife by design
Not (B2) Becasuse the use of inertia/gravity/Or Both ALONE doesnt actually actuate anything, especially with a bias to remain closed as applied by the crossbar lock.
.
.
.
Thanks for reading!
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dogboye
Gold Member
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- Nov 23, 1999
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I can't believe I was even in this thread. I probably would be intersted to see what I thought about it at the time.
Nowadays, I don't really care. If they sell it, and I can buy it, then I don't really care what the laws say. Sorry. But my attitude has changed a lot in 13 years.
Nowadays, I don't really care. If they sell it, and I can buy it, then I don't really care what the laws say. Sorry. But my attitude has changed a lot in 13 years.
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