Bad Survival Advice Makes Me Wonder...

[sicily02]

I for got to say what my two folders were. They are the swiss army classic in my right front pocket mainly for the sissors. The other is a swiss farmer that I got a couple of months back because every body talks so good about them here on this forum. I like the little saw and that awl. The knife blade is good to. The farmer is in a pouch that is right next to my fixed blades that holds my small survival kit that I keep with every day.
Bryan

 

[Liam Ryan]

The SPORK wins again!!!........not sure what you are talking about but I couldn't resist .

From the chunky soup commercials, people are fighting over what you should use to eat your stew like canned soup with, then inevitably forget their argument when they sit down to enjoy the delicious grub with the utensil of their choice.

I think there is a metaphorical moral in there somehere, can't quite grasp it though.

These commercials were around 15 or so years ago, though.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It's an interesting phenomenon. It seems to start, typically, with someone stating something completely absurd, like for example that it's easier to avoid breaking a folding knife than a fixed blade.

It seems to start when someone(s) feel it necessary to use words like "absurd" to express a difference of opinion.

 

[Myal]

[qoute]And I think that many folks who tote a fixed-blade (especially the larger fixed-blades) in to the woods are using that fixed-blade as a crutch to compensate for their lack of confidence with a folder[/qoute]

----------------------

tell you what you come hiking with me with your little folder, and i'll bring my standard Kabar kukri (one of my small knifes). I will take you through some BC wilderness. We will be approx 10 feet apart, each cutting our own trails. Lets see how that small folder holds out after about 20 feet of chopping dense thick undergrowth and fallen trees.

next we stop and build shelters. The average limb thickness round here is about 2" and up. Sure, you can cut thru them with a whittler, its gonna take you a long time though. Herein lies the difference, i will have my shelter built, my gear rucked away and a fire going by the time you are done whittling thru your branches for your shelter. My hands wont be fatigued or hurt from trying to force a little blade thru the wood. Thats the difference. thats why i dont use a folder in the woods, i use a chopper because its fast. I'll use a folder for fuzz sticks, or for food prep, but for firewood gathering, shelter building, trail clearing (these 3 are 98% of what i do on a hike) i'll use my fast time tested tough chopper.

horses for courses tho , you live in jungle and carry tools to suit ...

I tend to hang around more sparesly wooded areas , and find carrying heavy timber felling gear to be a bit ummmm..... a bit pointless ??

Blazing a trail isnt as hard as it sounds out here , and a folder usually does it OK ...

big chopper style fixed blades have a place for sure , but there are places where it dont matter how good your chopper is , there just isnt a whole lot to chop ....

 

[Thomas Linton]

One
more
time:

There is no best design. There are only best designs for: for certain people, for certain jobs, for certain demands.

Ken Warner, 1976

(And I find sporks good for dribblin' soup down my shirt, but that's just me.)

 

[Bushman5]

horses for courses tho , you live in jungle and carry tools to suit ...

I tend to hang around more sparesly wooded areas , and find carrying heavy timber felling gear to be a bit ummmm..... a bit pointless ??


Blazing a trail isnt as hard as it sounds out here , and a folder usually does it OK ...

big chopper style fixed blades have a place for sure , but there are places where it dont matter how good your chopper is , there just isnt a whole lot to chop ....

Fair enough, i can completely see your point, considering where you live. .

 

[Diamond Dog]

What about the ever popular beer debate...Tastes great...No Less Filling! Tastes great...No Less Filling! Tastes great...Less Filling! I couldn't resist

 

[allenC]

Bushman

tell you what you come hiking with me with your little folder, and i'll bring my standard Kabar kukri (one of my small knifes). I will take you through some BC wilderness. We will be approx 10 feet apart, each cutting our own trails. Lets see how that small folder holds out after about 20 feet of chopping dense thick undergrowth and fallen trees.

next we stop and build shelters. The average limb thickness round here is about 2" and up. Sure, you can cut thru them with a whittler, its gonna take you a long time though. Herein lies the difference, i will have my shelter built, my gear rucked away and a fire going by the time you are done whittling thru your branches for your shelter. My hands wont be fatigued or hurt from trying to force a little blade thru the wood. Thats the difference. thats why i dont use a folder in the woods, i use a chopper because its fast. I'll use a folder for fuzz sticks, or for food prep, but for firewood gathering, shelter building, trail clearing (these 3 are 98% of what i do on a hike) i'll use my fast time tested tough chopper.

I don't think that you get my point.
Is a big chopper better than a folder for blazing a trail?
YES.
Is a big chopper better for clearing land?
YES.
Is a big chopper better for survival?
NOT NECESSARILY.

Think about it....
You're in a survival situation.
You have little water and little food.
You only purpose is to survive long enough for help tp arrive or until you can hike out of the wilderness and find civilization.
And you don't do that by wasting your energy and your water and food resources by needlessly hacking down trees.
If you think that you simply must chop limbs and trees to build a shelter then you probably need to practice more in the field without your chopper.

Having a fixed blade over a folder AFTER falling through ice on a lake or stream seems like the better of the two. Reaching out and sticking that fixed blade in the ice to pull yourself out.

This is probably the best argument for a fixed-blade that I've heard so far.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Elen]

Having a fixed blade over a folder AFTER falling through ice on a lake or stream seems like the better of the two. Reaching out and sticking that fixed blade in the ice to pull yourself out.

Yes, been there, done that, learned that lesson. Good thing I had my Tommipuukko with me. But to be perfectly honest, it was really stupid of me to go there in the first place, and would have been easily avoided by not being stupid. So I'd say you don't need a fixed blade for that purpose, although it's certainly nice to have.

It seems to start when someone(s) feel it necessary to use words like "absurd" to express a difference of opinion.

Ah, but it's not a difference of opinion, it's simply fact versus fiction. There's a lot of different opinions that can be had about folders and fixed blades - for example, to say that folders look better than big, clumsy fixed blades is a valid opinion and can't be justly called absurd. But on the other hand, it's an absolute, proven fact, that it is much easier to break a folder than a fixed blade, and it's also much easier to avoid breaking a fixed blade than to avoid breaking a folder. If one claims otherwise, they're not stating an opinion, they're writing fiction, if not outright lying. And in that case, it's certainly justified to use the word "absurd." Now, a statement like "folders are better than fixed blades because they're compact and easier to carry" is an entirely valid opinion, nothing absurd about that.

 

[Codger_64]

...I find sporks good for dribblin' soup down my shirt, but that's just me. ...

Did you know that they make them with spoon on one end and fork on the other? Also, a folding spork is best for all people in all situations. That is a fact. Anyone who says different is not stating an opinion, they are lost in an absurd fantasy, a fiction. I don't know how Ray, Baer and Les survive without one. That tells me they are all posers..

 

[Elen]

Did you know that they make them with spoon on one end and fork on the other? Also, a folding spork is best for all people in all situations. That is a fact. Anyone who says different is not stating an opinion, they are lost in an absurd fantasy, a fiction. I don't know how Ray, Baer and Les survive without one. That tells me they are all posers..

But folding sporks are too heavy! With all the food I carry with me, there just isn't room for a 120 gram folding spork!

 

[Myal]

But on the other hand, it's an absolute, proven fact, that it is much easier to break a folder than a fixed blade, and it's also much easier to avoid breaking a fixed blade than to avoid breaking a folder. If one claims otherwise, they're not stating an opinion, they're writing fiction, if not outright lying.

Out of curiosity , what tests have been done on avoiding breaking fixed blades vs avoiding breaking folders ?

how was ease of avoidance of breakage measured ?

 

[Elen]

Out of curiosity , what tests have been done on avoiding breaking fixed blades vs avoiding breaking folders ?

how was ease of avoidance of breakage measured ?

It's really one of those things where specific tests aren't required. Just like you don't need tests to tell you that hitting your finger with a steel hammer hurts more than hitting your finger with a soft feather.

Or you could just test how durable the fixed blades and folders in question are, and having found the results, think really hard on the subject of which you would have a harder time breaking. If it's the fixed blade (free hint: it is), then it does mean that it's also easier to avoid breaking it.

One way that seems to be fun is to bring a fixed blade and a folder, walk onto thin ice and wait until you fall through, and then try to use the knives to pry yourself out of the water. If you break your SAK, Leatherman or Spyderco doing that, don't be surprised. Also don't be surprised if the water is a little cold.

Further, you could just compare the amounts of broken knives people ship in for warranty, and see if folders seem to be breaking more often than fixed blades.

 

[DeadeyeLefty]

A little off topic, but I thought I'd share something I learned from an avid ice fisherman about falling through ice. Not new by any means, but a great tip nontheless. Take an 8" length of 3/4" dowel and cut it in half to give you two 4" lengths. In one end of each, drill a couple holes 3/8" apart. In one of the holes on each one, epoxy in a 3" casing nail (big 'headless' nail) with the pointed end protruding. Now slide the pieces back together, recessing the nails into the opposite holes that remain. Drill a lanyard hole in each end and tie one a cord long enough to wear around your neck, outside of your jacket.

When you fall into the ice, the dowel will be floating in front of your face. Grab the two ends and pull them apart. You now have two handles, each with a 3" spike sticking out. Use for purchase on the ice just like those pegboards we all hated in high school gym class.

I don't know how clear the description was, but if anyone wants I'll put up a pic. It's dirt cheap, simple, and seems to work really well. (I haven't tried it 'wet', but testing on ice blocks was pretty effective)

 

[mckrob]

A little off topic, but I thought I'd share something I learned from an avid ice fisherman about falling through ice. Not new by any means, but a great tip nontheless. Take an 8" length of 3/4" dowel and cut it in half to give you two 4" lengths. In one end of each, drill a couple holes 3/8" apart. In one of the holes on each one, epoxy in a 3" casing nail (big 'headless' nail) with the pointed end protruding. Now slide the pieces back together, recessing the nails into the opposite holes that remain. Drill a lanyard hole in each end and tie one a cord long enough to wear around your neck, outside of your jacket.

When you fall into the ice, the dowel will be floating in front of your face. Grab the two ends and pull them apart. You now have two handles, each with a 3" spike sticking out. Use for purchase on the ice just like those pegboards we all hated in high school gym class.

I don't know how clear the description was, but if anyone wants I'll put up a pic. It's dirt cheap, simple, and seems to work really well. (I haven't tried it 'wet', but testing on ice blocks was pretty effective)

I've never tried making them but looks easy enough. I carry a set of these commercially made ones around my neck whenever I am working on the ice:

 

[Codger_64]

But folding sporks are too heavy! With all the food I carry with me, there just isn't room for a 120 gram folding spork!

120 gram!!???!!! You obviously are using the obsolete relics of days gone by. No wonder few of those people are alive today. Modern, state-of-survival-art sporks are made of helium-titanium-infi alloy! The weight is -12 grams. Of course you can't set it down or it floats off. Every advance in metalurgy has it's drawbacks. However, they come with a lifetime survive-or-double-money-back warranty. And then there is the "cool" factor. I think Ken Onion licensed his full spectrum knife finish to them. And you can get matching sunglasses. :thumbup:

 

[scott112]

Full-size multi-tools are just too heavy & bulky for me to lug around - either in the woods or for EDC. I have several that I keep handy in my toolbox, in my tackle box, and in my camper, but I rarely carry one on me. I do carry the little Leatherman P4 in my bug-out bag.

For EDC, I'm happy with just a small Sebenza and a Vic Classic.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Another senior moment.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Bushman
I don't think that you get my point.
Is a big chopper better than a folder for blazing a trail?
YES.
Is a big chopper better for clearing land?
YES.
Is a big chopper better for survival?
NOT NECESSARILY.

Think about it....
You're in a survival situation.
You have little water and little food.
You only purpose is to survive long enough for help tp arrive or until you can hike out of the wilderness and find civilization.
And you don't do that by wasting your energy and your water and food resources by needlessly hacking down trees.
If you think that you simply must chop limbs and trees to build a shelter then you probably need to practice more in the field without your chopper.
. . .

Bushman invited you "hiking" on his home turf. He makes a convincing argument that hiking is difficult without a tool to clear a path.

Your implicit rejoinder seems to be that clearing a path is not a "survival" task. In some places, like Cody Lundin's southwest, you are right. But Bushman isn't there, and he may need to move to survive.

Turning to shelter, you argue that having a chopping tool will lead to unnecessary chopping. Does having a SAK farmer lead to unnecessary sawing? Will a SAK Classic lead to uneeded tweezing of nose hairs?

I don't think we are ruled by things. I no more assume Bushman would unnecessarily start cutting down trees in a survival situation because he has the means to do it than I think you would try to fell a tree with a pocket knife. You would likely use your hands, in the absence of a suitable tool or try to find a way without using brush/limbs to get shelter.


And as for the notion that carrying a chopping tool is a sign of lack of knowledge, I can only answer Angier, Kockanski, Myers, and Wiseman. They are only four of experts who teach use of chopping tools.

 

[Myal]

It's really one of those things where specific tests aren't required.

Personally , I have avoided breaking a hell of a lot more folders than I have avoided breaking fixed blades .

I make knives for hobby and never had request for a folder that wont break , but I have had several for fixed blades that wont break .

I have had opinion for a while now , based on my experience with knives myself and with requests for knives from others that folders must just be easier to avoid breaking than fixed blades ...

but this is just my opinion , I was hoping to see something more concrete to prove otherwise .