Bad Survival Advice Makes Me Wonder...

[Bushman5]

^ ah see thats where yer doing it wrong.....bring the water to a boil, remove from the heat and toss in the gorund. A very brief stir and let it sit for 5 minutes. A little tap with or three with a spoon on the side of the pot will settle the grounds. Pour slowly, strong coffee, no grounds!

 

[Liam Ryan]

A heavier grind helps greatly with this. And bring a can of condensed milk for a real treat.

 

[allenC]

allanC, the thing about day hikes is that they can turn into unplanned overnight or longer survival situations. My guess is that more survival situations come up from dayhikers than any other group. The reason they can be more dire is because so many dayhikers wander off thinking they'll be back in a couple hours (IE, the recent Xmas story of the father and kids going to cut a tree in the Sierra) and are ill-equipped.

For the past 15 years, I've rarely been without a fixed blade knife. Foolishly or not though, they ride in the pack, not my belt. Another more often used folder will be in my pocket.

This sounds true to me, about the day hikers.
But why do you think that a fixed-blade would help a day hiker in such a situation moreso than a folding knife?

It goes back to what I said earlier....

Knowledge (and luck I suppose) will determine if the person survives, not whether he has a fixed-blade or a folder or a multi-tool.

It makes no sense to me for someone who is already carrying a good reliable folder to think "well, I'm going to be hiking some trails today, and since I might get lost or injured, I had better bring a fixed-blade" as if the fixed-blade is some kind of talisman that will somehow save them when their folder can't.


If you are already carrying a good folder, yet you feel that you NEED to carry a fixed-blade just in case you wind up in a survival situation, then aren't you basically admitting that you don't feel capable of surviving with just a folder?

I carry modern firestarters....because even though I have started fires with improvised and primitive methods, I am not confident that I can start a fire using primitive means at any given moment....or in a survival situation.
I recognize my lack of confidence and so I use modern lighters as a crutch.
Sad but true.
And I think that many folks who tote a fixed-blade (especially the larger fixed-blades) in to the woods are using that fixed-blade as a crutch to compensate for their lack of confidence with a folder.
In another thread I asked for examples of survival tasks that would break a folder....the only answers I got were "husking coconuts" and "prying oysters from rocks".
Nobody else gave any examples, yet many still maintained that a folder was not strong enough and that they had to have a fixed-blade.

It makes no sense to me.

 

[longbow50]

Knowledge (and luck I suppose) will determine if the person survives, not whether he has a fixed-blade or a folder or a multi-tool.

:thumbup:Exactly! It isn't the tool, it's the individual.

 

[Elen]

I carry modern firestarters....because even though I have started fires with improvised and primitive methods, I am not confident that I can start a fire using primitive means at any given moment....or in a survival situation.
I recognize my lack of confidence and so I use modern lighters as a crutch.
Sad but true.
And I think that many folks who tote a fixed-blade (especially the larger fixed-blades) in to the woods are using that fixed-blade as a crutch to compensate for their lack of confidence with a folder.
In another thread I asked for examples of survival tasks that would break a folder....the only answers I got were "husking coconuts" and "prying oysters from rocks".
Nobody else gave any examples, yet many still maintained that a folder was not strong enough and that they had to have a fixed-blade.

It makes no sense to me.

It makes sense to me, though. You see, it's not about confidence. It's about convenience.

For example, let's imagine that you have developed the skills to reliably use primitive firestarting methods to get a fire going in even harsh weather and in a survival situation. You're really good at primitive firestarting, and are very confident in your skills, for a good reason. You can get that fire going even if the winds are a hurricane and the skies are pouring rain like it's the end of the world, it'll just take some more time and care. Let's imagine that you're also a smoker, and you're sitting at your porch when you suddenly feel like you want to light up a smoke. Do you a) use your superior primitive firestarting skills to make a small fire with which you then proceed to light that cig, or b) pull out a lighter and light that cig in less than 3 seconds flat? I'd bet that you would do A. And why? Because, even though you're confident in the other skill, it's simply a million times more convenient to use the lighter.

Yeah, a silly example, very much exaggerated. But I do think it shows what it's all about to me, and other lovers of the fixed blade. I would be confident being out without any blade, but it is simply far more convenient to bring a fixed blade (as compared to no blade or a folder), because of for example the following reasons:

1) I don't ever, never have to open the knife. One very simple move of the hand draws it out of the sheath, already open with 100 % reliability and ready to go, whether that be for trimming some branches in the backyard or making some fuzzsticks in the forest for a small campfire.

2) I don't ever have to spend a lot of time cleaning it or lubricating any moving parts, even if I sink it in a bucket of blood and guts. A quick wash will do. I never have to worry about locks, pivots, screws and stuff getting loose, or tightening them.

3) I can cut, do some prying and hammering all with one tool that I will have with me and will not have to go looking for in the nearby terrain, if I feel like it, and if the situation is such that a knife failure wouldn't be catastrophical. Without a knife, cutting stuff is harder. With a folding knife, prying stuff and hammering stuff is a lot more likely to end up in knife failure than with a stout, good, fixed blade.

It's not that complicated, guys. I feel that it's rather interesting how often people tend to defend their own choices by labeling the choices of others as based on fear or lack of confidence or skill. Usually, that kind of argument is seen in gun control debates, but it does seem pretty common in other gear discussion too. Personally, I'm of the mind that people can bring all the folders they want to the wilds, or even no knife at all. I'm fine with that, and occasionally go bladeless myself. I only get annoyed by it when someone starts outright lying and claiming that you can do the same things with same effectiveness with no knife or with a folding knife (and I'm not implying that anyone has done so in this thread, just explaining my point of view). I rather like the truth.

 

[BruceZed]

I leave this alone except to put in a quote form my Website (boreal.net)

"Why except wilderness survival training from non-professional instructors? 1000's of individuals teach survival in North America, less than 100 are actual professional survival instructors."

Its easy to read a lot about wilderness survival, it much harder to acquire the real skills.

 

[skammer]

:thumbup:Exactly! It isn't the tool, it's the individual.

Lets hope this doesnt extend to climbing ropes, parachutes or brakes on your car.

Sometimes you must count on your tools make em good ones.

Skam

 

[skammer]

I leave this alone except to put in a quote form my Website (boreal.net)

"Why except wilderness survival training from non-professional instructors? 1000's of individuals teach survival in North America, less than 100 are actual professional survival instructors."

Its easy to read a lot about wilderness survival, it much harder to acquire the real skills.

What does one need to become a professional instructor as far as quals and experience? I mean there is no professional licensing body very little formal education in the subject.

Skam

 

[runningboar]

Lets hope this doesnt extend to climbing ropes, parachutes or brakes on your car.

Sometimes you must count on your tools make em good ones.

Skam

Overbuilt climbing ropes won't perform as well as regular ones the same for parachutes and brakes for your car. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, you can not always improve performance by improving durability most of the time you actually hurt it. Chris

 

[skammer]

Overbuilt climbing ropes won't perform as well as regular ones the same for parachutes and brakes for your car. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, you can not always improve performance by improving durability most of the time you actually hurt it. Chris

VERY true. But you can go up to the point of diminished return or a bit beyond for good measure. Diminished return is a linear scale of wide margin and is subjective.

Skam

 

[ras]

Can't you get S-30V blades on some leathermans?

The Leatherman Charge TTi has an S30V blade. That alone doesn't make it better than a lesser steel in a dedicated knife.

 

[allenC]

You see, it's not about confidence. It's about convenience.

No, I don't buy it.

I've carried pocket-knives, pouch folders, pocket-clip folders, and fixed-blades.
And out of all four, the fixed-blades were definitely the least convient to carry.
And the larger the fixed-blade the less convient it was to carry.
I remember carrying a fixed blade for months when I was a Soldier (young and not as experienced) and it was anything but convient.
You do get used to it, but it was never really more convient than a folder.

And while I do carry a Buck 110 in a horizontal pouch today, I'll be the first to admit that a pocket-clip folder is much more convient.
There's a very good reason that the pocket-clip folder has become so popular among knife users....it's super convient.
Heck, you don't even need a sheath or a belt or a neck-rig....you can just clip it to your boxer-shorts or even your wristwatch strap.

And when you consider that most knife nuts carry their knife practically 24/7, yet only use their knife a few times a day (on average), the convience of easy clean up is certainly outweighed by the inconvience of carrying the fixed-blade all day long.
It's not so much the weight of a fixed-blade as it is the longer length and the overall bulk.

As I said before, you get used to it, but it's really not that convient.

 

[allenC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbow50
Exactly! It isn't the tool, it's the individual.

Lets hope this doesnt extend to climbing ropes, parachutes or brakes on your car.

Sometimes you must count on your tools make em good ones.

Skam

I will not go so far as to say that the tool has no bearing on the results.
But the knowledge and skill of the user is THE greatest factor without a doubt.

Heck, you can give me the best golf clubs in the world, and give Tiger Woods the cheapest crappiest clubs, and I'll bet that he would still beat me at a game of golf.

 

[Elen]

No, I don't buy it.

I've carried pocket-knives, pouch folders, pocket-clip folders, and fixed-blades.
And out of all four, the fixed-blades were definitely the least convient to carry.
And the larger the fixed-blade the less convient it was to carry.
I remember carrying a fixed blade for months when I was a Soldier (young and not as experienced) and it was anything but convient.
You do get used to it, but it was never really more convient than a folder.

And while I do carry a Buck 110 in a horizontal pouch today, I'll be the first to admit that a pocket-clip folder is much more convient.
There's a very good reason that the pocket-clip folder has become so popular among knife users....it's super convient.
Heck, you don't even need a sheath or a belt or a neck-rig....you can just clip it to your boxer-shorts or even your wristwatch strap.

And when you consider that most knife nuts carry their knife practically 24/7, yet only use their knife a few times a day (on average), the convience of easy clean up is certainly outweighed by the inconvience of carrying the fixed-blade all day long.
It's not so much the weight of a fixed-blade as it is the longer length and the overall bulk.

As I said before, you get used to it, but it's really not that convient.

Convenience of use, my friend, not convenience of "carry."

I don't know what kind of fixed blades you carried in the army (perhaps the classic Ka-Bar?), but the kind in use here are lighter than some of the folders American knifenuts praise as EDCs. I also don't know why the couple of extra inches of length in a fixed blade (of reasonable size to EDC) compared to a folder would matter much - it never mattered to me or a lot of other users over these parts. A large SAK or Leatherman are both heavier and bulkier (just plain thicker) than some very good EDC fixed blades, so I'm not sure where the inconvenience really comes from, but to each man his own. It's certainly true a fixed blade needs a sheath - although those can be really quite small and thin, if done right. I can certainly agree that a folder is easier to carry in the pocket or in similar ways than a fixed blade, but you don't normally use the knife inside your pocket, now do you - gotta take it out first, and that's where the fixed blades shine, in the actual usability department. A funny guy could almost say that folders are great knives to carry but poor knives to use, while fixed blades are poor knives to carry but great knives to use!

With this thread focusing on knives in survival situations, I feel that the convenience of carry as in minimal weight and size isn't as important as it would be if you were choosing which knife to carry in your bathroom, in your boxers. If you are anticipating even a minor chance of getting into a survival situation, you should most likely bring some extra gear, in which case the size of a fixed blade should be one of the least of your concerns.

The whole ultralight, super convenient to carry thing flies in the face of tradition and indeed reason - as long as we're talking of wilderness environments and even other survival situations. If we take a look at the stuff pioneers and our forefathers carried in the wilderness, and when anticipating a chance of a survival situation developing, they did NOT go ultralight, certainly not in the cold north. Axes, fixed blades and warm clothing, bring all you can carry, was the norm. And it was smart, because it worked, when other solutions wouldn't.

I believe that when you're selecting tools based on their ease of carry instead of their effectiveness in use, you've strayed off the path of wisdom. Of course, that's not to say choosing a folder is unwise - if you like 'em and can manage with them, then they're the right choice for you. If you can go without a knife and like it, then that's the right choice. In spite of being not a fan of the ultralight style, I do think it's smart to occasionally practice with no tools and aids whatsoever - a couple of days of hiking in the woods without any knives, saws or such can be pretty interesting, and I for one have always enjoyed that. But I still prefer to bring the performance of a fixed blade with me most of the time, and especially if I'm potentially going into trouble's way. A fixed blade is convenient to open, 'cos it's always open. It's convenient to clean, for obvious reasons. It's convenient to use, because it's comparitively stronger! It is not as convenient to carry as a smaller folder, but a heck of a lot of people can live with that.

Ultimately, though, it's always your choice whether or not to "buy it" - although that really does not have any effect at all on the reality of things.

 

[CSG]

AllenC, the last line of my comment was that "another more often used folder will be in my pocket." My use is more commonly a small pocket knife. The F1's are for redundancy and there if the smaller knife cannot do what I ask or gets lost, damaged, etc.

The oft quoted "the more you know the less you need" is not great advice IMO. Redundant and solid tools as well as being prepared for any *likely* scenario is a better thing for most of us. If one's a knife and loincloth in the wilderness kinda guy, good on them but I'm of the school that thinks you're smarter having a fixed blade, a folder, possibly a multi-tool, and maybe a saw or ax even if the only think that ever come out is your SAK.

I said in another thread a couple days ago that for years the *only* knife I carried backpacking was my Buck 110. It was also a duty weapon when I was a deputy sheriff back in the mid-70's. These days I like redundancy and variety.

 

[Elen]

The oft quoted "the more you know the less you need" is not great advice IMO.

I agree with your post.

But I also agree with that old saying. It is true that the more you know the less you NEED - as in absolutely have to have to survive or accomplish your task.

On the other hand, it is absolutely true also, that the more you know the more use you can get out of everything you carry. Give a total doofus a box of tools and he'll accomplish nothing. Give an expert the same box, and he'll build you a house. Those who know what they're doing can do a lot of great things with the things that they need, but ALSO with the things that they do not need, but can use if they have them to their benefit and to achieve greater things than they could with only the things that they need.

Did that make sense?

 

[CSG]

Elen, yes, it makes sense. My point is that a knowledgeable person will take appropriate and redundant gear into the field.

 

[allenC]

The whole ultralight, super convenient to carry thing flies in the face of tradition and indeed reason - as long as we're talking of wilderness environments and even other survival situations. If we take a look at the stuff pioneers and our forefathers carried in the wilderness, and when anticipating a chance of a survival situation developing, they did NOT go ultralight, certainly not in the cold north. Axes, fixed blades and warm clothing, bring all you can carry, was the norm. And it was smart, because it worked, when other solutions wouldn't.

First, not all of the old traditional heavy gear was better than some of the light-weight gear available today.
And second, our pioneer forefathers were not camping....they were pioneering and homesteading.

Sure, if you're going in to uncharted wilderness to create a pioneer settlement or outpost, then yeah, you might want to bring an axe and a saw and shovels and a months worth of provisions.....and a pack mule to carry it all.
But not camping and hiking today.
Heck, there are wilderness preserves and national parks where it is illegal to chop down even one tree....so much for pioneering.

And when it came to knives, we must remember that our forefathers considered the knife not only as tool but also as a weapon.
In the days before firearms (and even in the days of single shot firearms) the knife and axe were often the pioneer's primary weapon (the gunpowder was saved for hunting wild game).
And I think that some guys still weigh the "weapon factor" when choosing which knife to take to the woods.
It's to keep the boogeyman away.
That's why you see so many inexperienced folks carrying big fixed-blades on their first camping trips....it's partly because of fear and partly because they don't know any better.

 

[skammer]

I will not go so far as to say that the tool has no bearing on the results.
But the knowledge and skill of the user is THE greatest factor without a doubt.

Heck, you can give me the best golf clubs in the world, and give Tiger Woods the cheapest crappiest clubs, and I'll bet that he would still beat me at a game of golf.

We agree on something. The quality of a tool while not the only factor by any stretch can and does play a role.

Skam

 

[Elen]

First, not all of the old traditional heavy gear was better than some of the light-weight gear available today.
And second, our pioneer forefathers were not camping....they were pioneering and homesteading.

Sure, if you're going in to uncharted wilderness to create a pioneer settlement or outpost, then yeah, you might want to bring an axe and a saw and shovels and a months worth of provisions.....and a pack mule to carry it all.
But not camping and hiking today.
Heck, there are wilderness preserves and national parks where it is illegal to chop down even one tree....so much for pioneering.

And when it came to knives, we must remember that our forefathers considered the knife not only as tool but also as a weapon.
In the days before firearms (and even in the days of single shot firearms) the knife and axe were often the pioneer's primary weapon (the gunpowder was saved for hunting wild game).
And I think that some guys still weigh the "weapon factor" when choosing which knife to take to the woods.
It's to keep the boogeyman away.
That's why you see so many inexperienced folks carrying big fixed-blades on their first camping trips....it's partly because of fear and partly because they don't know any better.

Well, of course not; old gear is called old because of exactly that, its age, which means newer and better stuff has had time to come. But I can guarantee you that if newer lightweight and heavyweight stuff had been available to our forefathers, a whole lot of them would have gone with the heavyweight stuff every single time. Some of this can be proven today, in areas where native cultures still live - having access to modern lightweight tools, but still preferring heavyweight tools, most often modern, but sometimes "old" or at least traditional.

As for the pioneer forefathers, sure, those were pioneering. My forefathers weren't pioneers, though, nor were they building trails and towns, and conquering the wild - they were just trying to live in it, and still went with heavy tools.

For camping and hiking today, I of course advocate absolutely the opposite of pioneering - try your best not to leave a trace of your presence, don't chop down trees, and so on. But even if you're not building log cabins, the heavyweight tools have a lot of uses - and if something goes wrong, they have a million times more uses.

The knife is certainly still considered a weapon, because it can be used as one (like most anything). But certain old designs like puukkos demonstrate as clearly as humanly possible that they were not intended to be used as weapons, although they could be (like our feet, mostly intended for standing and walking as they are). In some areas, knives were more prominently designed as weapons - in some other areas, not so.

I'm sure that you're right that some people go with fixed blades so as to have a weapon. I have no problem with that. In fact, one of the uses that I have for a knife is self-defense, although it is a last resort type of option. Ironically, though, people do count on folders as weapons, too, and a lot, which you can clearly see in other forums at Bladeforums. I suppose it would be correct to say that the only thing worse than considering a fixed blade knife a weapon is considering a folding knife a weapon - and people do, in fact, do the latter, and consider their "tactical folder" a security blanket. Not only is that stupid, it's a hell of a lot more stupid than considering a fixed blade knife a security blanket. At least fixed blades won't fail to open when you want to go knife commando on a group of guys with handguns.