Batoning Broken Down

[koyote]

Okay, I've never HAD TO baton because my life depended on it. yadda yadda.

I baton for a whole slew of reasons, safety and control being the top two. (Fun being third, but there are others.) I make knives to baton and when I started making knives I didn't know I wasn't supposed to!

Here's the basics:

For splitting- try not to baton the handle. Even the BEST handle will eventually come loose (same thing applies to throwing your knives, with the same exceptions involving leather scales). A lot of the time that means picking a fairly long knife, 5-6 inches, or more. I'm going to stick with the 5-6 inch bushie blade for response purposes, though. (In my mind, at least)

Try to tap, not whale. you are splitting, so you want to work with the wood and not fight it. This is a great, safe, controllable method for dealing with kindling and smaller wet wood.

For shelter building or shortening large pieces, you will often be batoning cross grain or at an angle. This is "chisel" style work, to cut notches accurately, or ring notch a large piece that you want to break in a specific area. Ring notching it batoning a ring around your break area of 1/2 to 1 inch deep notches (depending on the wood) so you can control your break area. (yes, you can use an axe, adze, froe and a pile of 40 pounds of tools to build a log cabin, but that's not the point)

Again, tap, and work with the wood. The two biggest mistakes are not looking at the wood, and whaling on the knife indiscriminately.


Regarding edge retention- there's just no need to worry when splitting if you have a convex grind or a convex micro bevel. the shoulders of the convex take nearly all the wear and stress, leaving the edge pretty much intact. cross grain you will wear the edge more, and you have to learn a slightly different set of habits and angles using a convex over a full flat, sabre, or "laser flat" scandi. But you will still wear the edge a bit less than otherwise (think about an axe, and why they are ground the way they are), and if you degunk the edge grinds well, basic stropping will keep things up. A big hint on degunking, a small vial of WD40 goes a long way.

On a laser straight scandi, you need to be a bit more gentle than with a convex, and you really want to keep the blade touched up continuously, as having to recondition an edge in the field ends up taking much longer than touch ups. You do, however, have an easier time with fine chiselwork cross batonning.

 

[koyote]

You may not break it the first time or the following 100 times. Microfractures happen in steel and the risk of breaking a knife is always going to be there. We've all read posts of guys having there knives break while batoning. One guy batoned his kabar for a couple of years before it eventually broke. Baton or don't it's no skin off my back but infering that the risk of breakage isn't there is silly.

There's a risk of breakage in any hard use. So I can't argue that there's NO risk, but with a properly designed and heat treated knife, the risk is so minimal that you just don't worry.

I can't replicate any hard data on "microfractures". Some key bits:

Get a differential hardness (soft back, and as little of the edge depth as is reasonably possible hard, with a gentle transition) and you are really going to be safe. This can be a differential quench, edge quench, differential temper, or laminated/forge welded types of steel.

AND/OR, make sure the blade as a whole or edge is tempered soft enough for the use. The chip/roll continuum we all know about is part of this- not suggesting this will happen under any sort of batonning usage, but the idea that the "chipping" edge is generally too hard for this type of work, you want the "rolling edge". (and remember kids, edge retention and cutting ability is more proper steel, heat treat, and geometry than it is actual rockwell hardness!)

avoid sharp angles and "milling machine" style transitions. everything except possibly the spine should be a radiused curve. (the spine can have some different rules especially if it is softened way down)

 

[Gossman Knives]

Breakage is a con of it no doubt. I have done it with a RAT 7 in D-2. Took a 3" or so section out of the blade it self.

Ok lets really talk straight here, Unless you live the tropics and you have a area that looks like pitdogs moss and stuff like that all over the place.
I mean a really wet damp place that seems to be like that all the time.

How many of you can walk out of your home right now and grab a stick thumb thickness or so that is off the ground and start to shave it with your knife making up a fuzz stick or even just shavings and then start them shavings on fire?

I have done it after a 3 day rain here in Nebraska to show my nephew that is can be done. Remeber the out side of the stick is damp but the whole inside is not. Once you get a few shavings started you are right into the dry wood. So I can tell you right now right here in my area of the world I live in a hard and soft wood area. I would never have to batton a single stick when I can just start carving up a fuzz stick, but I do because it sure makes getting hearth boards easyer, and it sure is fun to do when I am sitting next to my fire. I like to split small round that I cut with my saw

and then batton/ split

them and feed that spit wood into my fire. I am not trying to spilt 5" thick hard frozen wood with my 5.5" knife. Although I have seen some do that and I think that is really asking for trouble.

As you can see I do not need to split that thick of wood. I have travled while in the Marines and I so far have never had to do that then either. I do not tackle thick wood with my knife the thickest I split is that wrist thickness or so.
There as to be some thinking done here guys. There are some who think they are going to jump behind emeny lines, attack a tank with there knife and then try to kill the driver with that same knife. I kid you not I have chatted with some who have called me on the phone wanting me to make them a knife and tell me that type of stuff. I tell them right then and there I am not the maker you want you need Gil Hibbon or some one like that who make fantsy type blades, I make a working man / woodsman type of blade.

I have been making knives for 3 years now and I and I bet I have told callers that 15 or so times. I was even chatting with Brian Andrews a couple of weeks back and he has had that typr of stuff asked too.

There are some real arm chair Commandos out there.

So really how many NEED to batton there knives to get into some dry wood or couls you just pic a stick from off the ground and start shaving that stick?

If you only for some dumb reason had one knife ( I normally have 4 when I head to the woods which is most every day becasue I take Kelly Girl for her daily walk in the woods down by the river near town) would you still do that and take the chance of it being that one time and breaking?

Just wondering how many will stay say yes lol.

After all that I just said I bet most of you could just grab a stick and start shaving it up.


Take care all,

Bryan

The RAT failure should not happen, pure and simple. I know Bryan knows what he is doing while batoning so that failure is related to the knife. Rolls and chips should not happen if the knife is properly HTed and tempered. If you hit a rock I can see roughing up the edge. With proper blade/edge geometry, HT and temper, rolls and or chips should not happen when batoning. If you run into a knot the blade can't handle, wedge the split and get the blade out. Common sense is the key when batoning.
We found out last weekend, big rounds of fire wood do nothing but smolder. If they are too big to baton, use an axe, common sense.
Scott

 

[pitdog]

Yeah never batton anything silly !

By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

 

[TUF]

I don't have a dog in this fight and I think a man should do whatever he wants. You want to baton with your blade? Get after it. You don't want to? Then don't.

Obviously doing this with a cheap inferior blade will probably break the blade. Most people here probably aren't going to be carrying three dollar quick stop blades.

I guess the next thing to think about is how much abuse can the blade you are holding take? If it is a stainless blade ground thin to be a wicked fighting knife the answer is it will probably break pretty damn soon if you start pounding on it. A filet knife? Just leave it in the scabbard and climb up and get yourself some twigs, lots and lots of twigs.

What about those knives like Busse makes? Heck yeah, in a world where a blade .320 thick isn't even the super heavy model you should be able to beat on that thing for the rest of your life. These knives are made for tasks like this and do a very good job of it. Of course they give up a lot of actual knife capability to do so but maybe you don't need a knife for those kinds of things anyway.

As to the efficiency argument. No using a knife or a piece of grader blade is nowhere near as fast or efficient as using proper splitting tools. As a youth and a young man I probably split a train load of firewood, give or take. We not only split for ourselves but for a good number of the people in the towns that were close to us. We didn't use a power log splitter like I would today. We split every piece by hand.

No knife can compete with the speed, efficiency, and power that a good splitting maul and wedges bring to the table. Just not going to happen. Even in the videos posted. That guy really handles his knife well, better than most probably. Compare that to a guy that is equally good with a maul even a small hand maul and you will see a tremendous difference.

Those that are comparing a $600 knife to a $4 wal-mart hatchet are doing the reverse of a guy comparing a splitting maul to a cheap folder to split wood with. No hatchet, even a very good one is made for splitting wood.

While not the case here but the argument should be is if you don't want to carry a small maul what kind of knife should I use to split wood with. The answer is of course obvious. You should use a large thick knife that is not made made of a super hard steel.

If you really think you are going to be in a survival situation that could stretch out for any length of time you should consider having access to the tools you need for the area you will be in.

Many places a big knife could do a really good job for you. Some places you would be much wiser to bring something else, namely a tool that really is made to split wood.

Today, most people are venturing into the woods looking for entertainment. If it entertains you to baton a big knife then that is what you should do. There is not a damn thing wrong with it.

I always have an axe rolled in the middle of my bedroll so I am not a batoning kind of guy. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be. Like anything else make sure you buy the tool that is up for the job you want to do.

 

[koyote]

okay,

1: the cheap blade may actually hold up better to batoning. (this is specific to carbon steels, stainless "cheap" gets really weird.) - various heat treat stuff going on here. but it's very possible.

2: batoning is the most efficient and safe manner of splitting kindling off of small rounds. period. in the time you spend balancing and setting up a way to wedge split an uneven 4 inch round on rought ground, I can have the blade of my knife cut in, be holding the piece STABLY by means of the knife handle- with no messing around trying to balance it, and tap right through it. before you've got the other deadfall chunk even propped up well enough to take a free swing at it.

Okay, let's look at that rather aggressive statement.

I am NOT talking about splitting a cord of firewood off of chainsaw cut rounds with a big ole stump for a base. This is a huge, massive, incredible difference. This is crucial to the discussion.

A properly executed knife doing the job of splitting kindling while hiking is a wedge, being used to split wood. Furthermore, it's a splitting wedge with a handle!

Such a cool concept, you will even find splitting wedges...with handles!... in stores!

The efficiency arguments are so drastically misused that I tend to get a bit overbearing in my responses. but it's really simple:

Carrying 80 pounds of splitting gear that I use to process firewood at home- chainsaw, oil, gas, axes, saws, wedges and mauls- is dumb. The tools are great, and much more efficient for splitting cords of wood for the home. Carrying it around for a campfire is incredibly inefficient.

A 6 inch leuku and a folding pruning saw are more efficient- per campfire, than the 80 pounds of tools.

This is a really big difference.


Oh, incidentally, a thin knife works better for batoning.

 

[sicily02]

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind comments all.

Great posts after I posted, I really think you guys are right on with what you said.

Battoning with your knife is not just to get to dry wood it really has so many other useful applications.

Common sense is the key

Again if I was with only one knife for some reason, I would and I feel most of you, would too, think about what you would and how you would use you knife
before you would just do stupid stuff.

ie putting your knife on the end of a stick to use as a spear. why not just carve the tip? Then put your knife back in the sheath or pocket and now you have a great spear. and the ability to make many more with ease.
You all know what I mean lol.

Koyote, you hit the nail on the head. Just like bindle stich shows in his video battoning really has some great advantages like notches, and such. Great points.

Doc, I have done just what you said taken a bigger log and spilt/ cut off pieces of off a bigger round. Again it really is fun to do while sitting around the fire and then feeding them peices in the fire.

Scott, Thanks for the kind comment. Yes you are right I feel 100% it was the heat treat of that particlur knife.
Again I have heard Scott and many others say ONE is none and 2 knives are 1 knife and 3 knives are 2 knives. Again we were made with 2 hands so carry at least 2 knives with you. It just make Sense to do that.

Pitdog love the pic man. Yes I feel with a thicker knife you can sure do heaver type of cutting chores. That is why I think and I bet most if not all here on this forum carry a thinner knife for certain chores and then a thicker type cutting tool Big knife or hatchet/ axe for some heavyer type of cutting chores. Some like saws and that is great, so do I. But that tool is really more for just sawing not skinning or cleaning fish and game etc. Not like a knife or hatchet they can be used in so many more ways. You all know what I mean lol.

Tuf you made some great points.

Again all it comes down to what YOU want to do with your knives and such.

Can a knife Break Yes but for the most part they can be used in that fasion with no problems even moras can be battoned through wood just fine.

Take care

 

[dextersp1]

All the talk of batoning really takes it out of perspective for me. Yes, there are uses for it but I think the emphasis put on batoning is not warranted. As others have mentioned feathering is an easier method to get at the dry wood.


I'm talking about a single person below.

Emergency warmth - possibly - an emergency bivy might be better. Also, if it is an emergency will you have the physical ability to baton?
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3665410

Signal fire - possibly - you should have a good headlight, mirror, personal location beacon and whistle. Again, if you can get around to cut down small trees and baton them; how hurt are you.

Cooking - yes, but you may not want to always start a fire after a long day of hiking so a small stove is a good idea

Building a shelter yes but if you are moving ever day you would not want to do that because of the time involved.

Central shelter yes but if you know you are going to do this you would take other equipment to make it easier.

Emergency shelter - yes - see warmth above also

These days having a campfire is to add atmosphere rather than something that is required. But if you watch knife reviews you would think batoning is the standard in evaluating a knife.

 

[sicily02]

Again battoning gives you so many more options over just trying to get to dry wood.
Options are wonderful.

Bryan

 

[dextersp1]

Again battoning gives you so many more options over just trying to get to dry wood.

Bryan

What are they?

 

[koyote]

let's start with splitting kindling. Which isn't feathering. And I've been in places where feathering to get dry wood isn't likely to happen, nor be fast. (in fact, that whole idea of whittlin to get to dry wood sounds really bizarre to me)

All the talk of batoning is talk of batoning, not talk of every other use for a knife. I realize that we should be inclusive of every point of view and task, but the thread is about batoning- so maybe it's okay to focus on batoning in the batoning thread (I mostly cut tape and string with my EDC, so that's my "focus", but it's boring as heck to talk about.)

other uses for hitting a knife with a piece of wood.

Splitting for non firewood purposes. Planing, smoothing, shaping. Ring notching for a break, notching for shelter poles or traps. add to the list, people! (remember, this includes "skills" and "bushcraft", not just bare minimum 72 hour solo survival after a crash)

 

[CM_Rick]

Thank you everyone for all of the great info and tips. You guys have really made this thread a great one to read for everyone on this forum.

I think a few are starting to get back at the idea of ONLY using batoning to get fire wood. Remember to add all of the applications for this particular technique and why they are good for survival, and then weigh them against the con of breakage.

dexterSP1- I think you are missing the point of using this skill in a survival situation. To be in an SS, you don't necessarily have to be injured, just caught in the wilderness with little to no gear. So, that would basically answer your other comments as well. This thread isn't ONLY about using batoning while camping, but surviving without tents or stoves or even backpacks. Remember... it is basically just you, your knife, and what you know. Now... WHATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER? lol, gotta love the Hulkster!

 

[Cascade_mtn's]

Yeah never batton anything silly !

By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

ROTFLMAO..... that was funny.:thumbup:

Where I live we have much softer trees (pine, cedar, spruce, ect...) so battoning isn't such a hazardous task to our chosen knife. With that said I don't do it all that often. When on summer one or two night backpacking trips I use a saw to buck up downed timber generally 1"-2" in diameter. It's all over the place and easy to find.

However if I'm going to a new site/trail I haven't been to, to elevation where weather can come in FAST, or during a winter/fall/spring month where weather is "fickle" to say the least here in the PNW I carry a Bahco 3/4" axe with me. I however have used my knives to split small timber rounds before, and have no problem with the technique. It's a good one to know, and for some, is the best way to get to good dry material for a fire. To each his own. :thumbup:

 

[dextersp1]

dexterSP1- I think you are missing the point of using this skill in a survival situation. To be in an SS, you don't necessarily have to be injured, just caught in the wilderness with little to no gear. So, that would basically answer your other comments as well. This thread isn't ONLY about using batoning while camping, but surviving without tents or stoves or even backpacks. Remember... it is basically just you, your knife, and what you know. Now... WHATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER? lol, gotta love the Hulkster!

I didn't see in the OP that this was about survival situations. He wanted to know about practical applications for batoning that he didn't mention.
I think knowing how to baton is a good skill to know. But, that skill seems to me to be over emphasized in knife usage and reviews.

I usually (don't like to say never) do not get separated from my backpack. If I'm doing a day hike it is always with me. If I'm camping and hiking I have a smaller backpack that I use with emergency supplies.

 

[CM_Rick]

Right on dex...

I am the same way about having a day pack (I am involved with the BSA and practice what I preach about having the 10 essentials with me at all times). I just wanted to validate the skill for WSS, and sort of put out a disclaimer on all the BATON reviews. You are correct, there is a lot of them, but it is a good thing to know about a knife in a review, amongst ALL the other things too.

 

[kgd]

Lots of good activity in the thread today.

I regularly baton the crud out both Sicily's and Koyote's knives....Without problem. For the most part, I'm dealing with wrist sized pieces of wood. I use both hardwood (oak, maple, beech, ash) and softwood (popular, willow, various conifers). For the most part, its recreational activity making a fire and practicing friction fire methods.

Sometimes I do split larger rounds after purchasing camp firewood when I'm car camping (because they only let you burn the stuff you buy from them). I often use DocCanada's approach of chipping off parts of the wood by batoning for use in kindling. I use batoning sometimes to make the notch in the hearth, particularly when I have a big knife.

Used correctly, I think batonning is safer on your blade than chopping. Chopping places stress directly on the edge with each swipe and you are always in danger of glancing blows that endanger your person, others around you or causing your edge to glance off nearby rocks (happened to me a few times). I actually prefer an axe for chopping and a long knife for batoning. Like Koyote, I don't often bring an axe with me. There are times to bring an axe, but very often a saw/knife will do what I need to do and be so much easier to carry.

DocCanada pointed out in the past that folks with bad backs are faced with the choice of - don't split wood because you can't raise an axe, ask somebody else to do it for you (humiliating), or baton split it. So baton splitting can actually be empowering to people wanting to camp but not able to chop with an axe. This can also include people with physical disability. Finally, it is far safer to teach a younger child to baton split and you can do so at an earlier age then teaching them to use an axe. Think how great it would be to have your 8 year old helping out with firewood prep.

As an activity, it also requires little room. You can baton split in your garage, basement or under a tarp/shelter while its raining. You can do that with an axe which requires much more room to maneuver.

I agree with Koyote that a thin knife (within reason - 3/32" - 1/8") is often easier to baton than a thick one. You aren't fighting the thickness of the knife when wedging the wood. It allows you to use lighter taps to get the bevel sunk into wood compared to 1/4" thick knives.

Knots are a pain in the ass whether you are batoning or using an axe or even a splitting maul. I really think nasty knotty wood pretty much needs a wedge & sledge to split. They suck, no matter what. Easier to grab another piece of wood and when the fire is big enough, burn that unsplit knotty bastard all to hell.

Unlike Bryan, I find fuzz sticks easier to make on split pieces of wood. The straight edges generated by splitting it allows me to get much better curls then simply feathering a round. Sometimes you really have to scrap deep to get at the dry stuff, not just debark it. When that is the case, splitting the wood helps you demark the wet/dry transition much better.

 

[koyote]

Lots of good activity in the thread today.

I regularly baton the crud out both Sicily's and Koyote's knives....Without problem.

Finally, it is far safer to teach a younger child to baton split and you can do so at an earlier age then teaching them to use an axe. Think how great it would be to have your 8 year old helping out with firewood prep.

This is a big deal. My kids (not Eira, she's only 3 months) know how to baton and it's a fine skill for proper use. This is a great point.

 

[TUF]

okay,

1: the cheap blade may actually hold up better to batoning. (this is specific to carbon steels, stainless "cheap" gets really weird.) - various heat treat stuff going on here. but it's very possible.

2: batoning is the most efficient and safe manner of splitting kindling off of small rounds. period. in the time you spend balancing and setting up a way to wedge split an uneven 4 inch round on rought ground, I can have the blade of my knife cut in, be holding the piece STABLY by means of the knife handle- with no messing around trying to balance it, and tap right through it. before you've got the other deadfall chunk even propped up well enough to take a free swing at it.

Okay, let's look at that rather aggressive statement.

I am NOT talking about splitting a cord of firewood off of chainsaw cut rounds with a big ole stump for a base. This is a huge, massive, incredible difference. This is crucial to the discussion.

A properly executed knife doing the job of splitting kindling while hiking is a wedge, being used to split wood. Furthermore, it's a splitting wedge with a handle!

Such a cool concept, you will even find splitting wedges...with handles!... in stores!

The efficiency arguments are so drastically misused that I tend to get a bit overbearing in my responses. but it's really simple:

Carrying 80 pounds of splitting gear that I use to process firewood at home- chainsaw, oil, gas, axes, saws, wedges and mauls- is dumb. The tools are great, and much more efficient for splitting cords of wood for the home. Carrying it around for a campfire is incredibly inefficient.

A 6 inch leuku and a folding pruning saw are more efficient- per campfire, than the 80 pounds of tools.

This is a really big difference.


Oh, incidentally, a thin knife works better for batoning.

I don't really disagree with you and there is always more than one way to skin a cat. In the end it doesn't really matter because a man should do things as he wants to. But for the sake of discussion.

1) I disagree with this statement although I understand where you are going with it. A hacksaw blade is cheap and it is thin. Might it be the perfect blade to baton with?

2) This is absolutely false. If one way is more efficient to do one piece in one manner than it is more efficient to do a thousand. Just because you don't know how to use an axe doesn't mean it is slow and dangerous for those that do.

For the sake of argument if you are just driving out to woods to spend some time and you want a camp fire why not just take a box of firewood from the house with you? That would be much more efficient than trying to do it in the field.

Because you want to play with your knife, that's why. And that's cool, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Much of this thread is about survival and depending on how long you might need to survive you might need more than one fire. If you are there very long and you are depending upon fire to cook and for warmth you might need quite a bit of firewood.

You can dig a hole with a knife, if necessary. That doesn't make it better than shovel for digging holes. You can eat or cook off it too. That doesn't make it better or more efficient than a fork or a skillet. But if you chose to do those things with your knife that is certainly an option for you.

I'm not knocking or berating anyone that choses to baton with a knife. It is an interesting skill and having more skills is almost always a plus. I do think it is somewhat humorous to see pictures of people batoning wood that has been cut to length with a chain saw.

Honestly it takes very little kindling to start a good fire. If you split all your wood up your fire won't last very long. So in the name of survival and expending the least amount of energy you should burn the largest pieces of wood you can get to burn. I don't care if you start your fire with belly button lint, your goal (in a survival situation) is to get wood at least 8-10 inches burning. Unless of course you don't require sleep and you want to sit up all night feeding pencil sized pieces of wood to your fire.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm not trying to convert you or teach you to use an axe. You should do what you want to do. There have been men living in the wilds of the world for hundreds of years. In different parts of the world the same tasks are accomplished in a great many ways. Although the one item that is common to almost all civilized people is that they process wood, whether for consumption or construction, with an axe.

A wise man might want to think about that for a bit. It is not dumb to do it another way if that is what you want to do to. What is dumb is to discount what has worked for millions of people for centuries.

 

[koyote]

I don't really disagree with you and there is always more than one way to skin a cat. In the end it doesn't really matter because a man should do things as he wants to. But for the sake of discussion.

1) I disagree with this statement although I understand where you are going with it. A hacksaw blade is cheap and it is thin. Might it be the perfect blade to baton with?

2) This is absolutely false. If one way is more efficient to do one piece in one manner than it is more efficient to do a thousand. Just because you don't know how to use an axe doesn't mean it is slow and dangerous for those that do.

For the sake of argument if you are just driving out to woods to spend some time and you want a camp fire why not just take a box of firewood from the house with you? That would be much more efficient than trying to do it in the field.

Because you want to play with your knife, that's why. And that's cool, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Much of this thread is about survival and depending on how long you might need to survive you might need more than one fire. If you are there very long and you are depending upon fire to cook and for warmth you might need quite a bit of firewood.

You can dig a hole with a knife, if necessary. That doesn't make it better than shovel for digging holes. You can eat or cook off it too. That doesn't make it better or more efficient than a fork or a skillet. But if you chose to do those things with your knife that is certainly an option for you.

I'm not knocking or berating anyone that choses to baton with a knife. It is an interesting skill and having more skills is almost always a plus. I do think it is somewhat humorous to see pictures of people batoning wood that has been cut to length with a chain saw.

Honestly it takes very little kindling to start a good fire. If you split all your wood up your fire won't last very long. So in the name of survival and expending the least amount of energy you should burn the largest pieces of wood you can get to burn. I don't care if you start your fire with belly button lint, your goal (in a survival situation) is to get wood at least 8-10 inches burning. Unless of course you don't require sleep and you want to sit up all night feeding pencil sized pieces of wood to your fire.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm not trying to convert you or teach you to use an axe. You should do what you want to do. There have been men living in the wilds of the world for hundreds of years. In different parts of the world the same tasks are accomplished in a great many ways. Although the one item that is common to almost all civilized people is that they process wood, whether for consumption or construction, with an axe.

A wise man might want to think about that for a bit. It is not dumb to do it another way if that is what you want to do to. What is dumb is to discount what has worked for millions of people for centuries.

Actually, you sort of make my point 2 for me very well. Ignoring the pickup full of firewood thing (since many situations involving sport won't involve that, let alone survival)- you are NOT splitting large amounts of wood into kindling. Exactly! Fantastic point! So why go throught he trouble of getting things set fo a proper two handed splittign job with flat bottoms and hiking with an 8 pound maul, when 5 minutes with the right knife does it? Effieciency includes movement and setup time!


Let's look at the basic screwdriver analogy. It is more efficient to do a deck with a proper corded drill and adjustable torque driver set. But if I want to do ONE hole, a screw starter and hand screwdriver is better, because I'd be DONE with it by the time I got the proper mass production tools set up.

I'm not sure if this is clear or not. It's clear to me, who will use a posthole digger rather than a tractor and auger to fix a single fencepost on the ranch. Because it takes less time to dig one hole by hand than it does to set up the hydraulics on the tractor! 10 holes? get the tractor out, man. One hole, do it by hand.

People just blithely assume I want to do a 75 mile hike with an extra 5 pounds of axe. It makes no snese, even in strict calorie expenditure.

I have, and use, and know how to use, axes and mauls- adzes and froes, chisels and knives. And my hydraulic splitter, too

But the most efficient mass production tool isn't necessarily the most efficient small job tool! Nor the most versatile.

regarding 1- a hacksaw blade isn't a knife blade. Referring specifically to knives, sometimes the cheap soft random carbon blades are ideal for the sort of use we're talking about. Not always, but it's entirely possible.

 

[kgd]

Everyone one of the gadgets on my SAK suck compared to a dedicated tool, yet its my favorite and one of my most trusted pieces of equipment......