Batoning Broken Down

I don't need to baton to get to DRY wood.....here in BC i just light a base fire of 10 - 20lbs of fatwood, the resulting SEARING HEAT INFERNO rapidly dries and burns even the WETTEST of woods.

that being said i DO hand tap my knives to make kindling.
 
You're right, I'm wrong. My four plus decades on five continents has been wasted. All I really ever needed was a cheap knife and stick to beat on it with. :D

I don't want to argue. I don't care how you do things. I am merely passing on a successful way of doing things. It has completely passed over your head.

And finally with your repeated description of how to use an axe in the situations described you haven't a clue how to use one.

I'll leave this topic as it is and I will include in my prayers that you should you ever be in a bad situation that your cheap knife doesn't break as you attempt to hammer it through a piece of frozen wood.

I sincerely do wish you the best of luck. You're gonna need it. ;)
 
TUF said:
I'll leave this topic as it is and I will include in my prayers that you should you ever be in a bad situation that your cheap knife doesn't break as you attempt to hammer it through a piece of frozen wood.

I sincerely do wish you the best of luck. You're gonna need it. ;)
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Koyote has the skill to make another knife in the wild i bet:D

On another note this thread made it 4 pages until someone got upset:rolleyes:
 
Initially, I wasn't going to read this thread, because it joins a gazillion others about batoning, but for some reason I did.

I'm now glad of it, because this has probably been one of the best, if not the best, thread of its kind, made all the better by the contributions of some of our resident knife artists.

I'm saving a link to it, as a reference for the next 500 threads about batoning. :D, although I have to say, if there is never another batoning thread, I won't miss it.:rolleyes:

BTW, Bryan, you may have missed the discussion about using a knife for a spear. The point isn't about tying it to a pole and throwing it, in hopes of bringing down supper, but rather as a means to dispatch a larger animal, that you have trapped, and isn't happy about it.

Coote, the only person I've ever talked to who has speared a large, trapped animal (pig) in order to dispatch it has said that he definitely preferred a knife over a sharp stick, fire-hardened or not and somebody else in that thread, who hunts pigs, wholeheartedly agreed. I'll see if I can find that thread (here it is - you'll have to scroll down a bit). Used in this fashion, there should be no great risk for your knife.

Doc

ETA, somehow I missed the upset. Here's the bottom line, there is never going to be agreement between those that baton and those that don't. Insulting people or calling into question their skill or expertise is non-productive. I think we should all agree to disagree and never raise the ugly head of this particular controversy again.

Just my 2 cents of course, and unless somebody wants to take exception............................................. :D
 
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Okay, I need to back up a level.

Remember I make the things- and it's not in my interest to try and sell people on cheap blades!

What I'm getting at is that- in terms of "generic spring steels" such as a random 1050-1090 range steel, or something actually made out of an old spring -be it 5160 or not-, or even rebar (whcih makes some fine knives, incidentally), a "cheap" blade with a overly soft heat treatment and a generally sloppy job, is likely as not, going to perform reasonably well.

It may, in terms of chopping and batoning, outperform a really NICELY made knife that is heat treated and ground for jobs specifically NOT including batoning.

As one of those "obvious to me" things that may not be obvious to others, those cheap random blades are often thicker than what I regularly make in a bushcraft knife, so I'm not really intending to point out 1/16 inch thick blades, either.

If you are, in fact, using a maquiladora shop to produce quantities of cheap knives out of old discs or leaf springs, you won't be spending the time and care to thin them out that much!

My actual thin blade remark earlier was a direct reference to me :D I'm a founding member of the thin blade mafia. (Big, Evil Grin)

My splitting experience is mostly limited to two types:

1: messy unsafe one handed balancing stick and trying not to hit the dirt, in the dark, in camp. This is why I batoned the first time, and it's generally proven mouch better for camp use.

2: splitting firewood from common local rounds. In CA, that was oak, walnut, almond, sometimes silver maple. Usually 10 inch or bigger rounds because smaller stuff would get snatched up by people. Here, it's usually cottonwood and pine, often 24-36 inch rounds on the cottonwood! LOTS of wedges on that first split.

No, I don't use an axe to cut cottonwood trunks to length so I can split them. I use a chainsaw. It just makes sense. These things are huge! (Incidentally, my forest axe is about as big as I bother with out here, anything bigger gets a chainsaw. Too much to do to pick at self pruning cottonwoods with an axe.)

And so, I still think we're talking about different things. The difference between camp and splitting cordwood just seems large to me. I have no problem with splitting mauls. I'm just really failing to see where hiking with one makes more sense. Seriously, no arguing, I just don't get that one.

So, sorry to all if I made things a bit less comfortable.
 
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sicily02 said:
Battoning is not a new thing. The name of it is though. The use of a blade whether long or short to split wood with a mallet or batton has been used for many years.
Even the old time campers used it and talk about it. Horace Kephart has a pic of its use in his Camping book.

Also this is not beating a dead horse, as we have new people joining this great site all the time.

Bryan
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agreed it is not new. was watching an old western the other nite(sorry dont recall the name-but the movie was old enough to be colorized) and one of the old codgers was "batoning" wood for the fire.
 
Sadiejane, Right on. The name battoning is new, not the technigue.
Shingles have been made for houses and barns for many years and how were they made by taking a peice of steel and hitting it through the wood now is that the only way? NO but is it really is a great way to do that.

Doc, LOL good point. Yes If I had a trapped animal I think a real type of spear would be better to kill it too, then using a sharpened stick lol.

Again it comes down to trying to use common sense when using your knife
IF you are ever in a REAL SURVIVAL situation, I hope I never am. I like going to the Frig for food when I want lol. I like to parctice these skills but that is it lol.

Yea this thread really was going pretty good untill some one got mad and had to tell someone else that they do not know how to use a knife.

NON BATTONERS it is OK if you do not want OR like to batton,BUUUUUUTTTTTT it is not new and it has been around for ages
and will be around for many more years, because it Works and gives you more options in wood working. That is not just hear say it is FACT.
History tells us that...... PERIOD.

Now bushman5 lol yep You are right on :thumbup:light up some fat wood I sure would if I lived in your area.


Here again, If you are really in a survival situation you will think about what you really NEED to do with your tools and hopefully you still have them with you. Lost back packs do happen so keep some gear on you in pockets and on your belt and round your neck. Common sensee right guys.

Tuf, you are new here to this forum, I am sure you have some woodcraft experience, but I tell COOOL it some, this is agreat place to Share and Learn,
You do not know it all, I do not know it all, Koyote does not know it all,
But after YEARS of being in the woods, I have over 3 decades and so does Koyote, We all have learned stuff that we like to do and KNOW will work for us. You have your woods time and it must work for what you do. Does it make it the best way? NO but it works for you. I have seen what others here have done and I said to myself that is not for me, but it works for them that is the POINT. We Share and LEARN from each other.

So lets all keep on track with what this thread was about in the first place.
Battoning is not new and it can and is used in working wood.

Take care all,

Bryan
 
Shotgun said:
No expert by any means but I believe that was the conclusion of a guy who broke an M6 Swamp Rat. This was an extreme case where the guy spent several hours batoning with a wrench as a baton but it illustrates the same problem that could happen with lesser knives like the kabar and a wooden baton. Not sure that microfractures is the correct term. Maybe it would be called fatigueing the metal.
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I gotcha. That's disappointing honestly that people would equate batoning a knife over several hours with a wrench to batoning with a piece of wood.
I've never heard of micro fractures being formed due to wood hitting steel.
I do know that knives (like the rat in this thread for example) fail due to to stress risers that form during heat treat. But I don't think it's reasonable to think those fractures are formed due to battoning the knife. I think it's reasonable to think they are revealed while battoning the knife.
Same with all the busted kabars, they aren't designed for the job.
I've also seen froe's busted into three pieces. They are made to be battoned but have failed due to heat treat problems.

Thanks for not taking anything personal, I was just asking out of interest to see if there was some kind of research on the subject.:thumbup:
Iz
 
I don't think anyone is questioning if batoning is a good skill to know or not.
I think it is a difference of perspective, relative usefulness of it and the emphasis placed on it.
I've posted my thoughts about it above. But I would add that GENERALLY very little batoning is needed to get a fire started after that the heat from the fire should help to light un-batoned wood.

Here is a post about starting a fire without batoning. But it would probably be a bit difficult to get un-batoned wood or wet wood to catch fire with it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=812329
 
I want to make a tiny push on the thread.

Remember that, while knife vs. axe and firemaking are the general focal points of batonning discussion, they aren't in woodscraft/bushcraft the main focal points of batoning.


There's a strong focus these days on minimal paleolithic style shelter building and "emergency only" survival. But the varieties of knife technique which include (but are not limited to) batonning are very useful and versatile.

Shingling and fireboards have been mentioned, and I'd add cutting boards, cedar grilling boards, whatever.

To back away from the AXE AXE AXE AXE AXE thing for a moment, chiselwork is a big deal. I tried to get into this a little bit mentioning ring notching and regular notching. Traps, shelter poles, cooking tools are all able to be done with this. Much of the time in situations where any axe worth carrying is WAY too much for the job. Hie thee out to the shop and make a large figure 4 with a chisel, then mess with the knife and think about this all.

(awwwwww, nuts. I just did the thing where I used an example- the figure 4. Please don't take the example as the whole universe of utility. it's one example of chiselwork and not in any way intended to encompass all the chiselwork techniques I'd use to build a small frame or log cabin in the woods, nor a cooking fire set for extended use, nor a lodgepole for a semi-permanent camp. nor a treehouse. etc.)

Hunting is another great example. I've seen and done bone popping with a baton on a knife, and it's great. Just know when and how
 
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Again, I must thank everyone that has posted on this thread. There was a comment about it being one of the best on batoning, and that is what I was aiming for.

Don't get me, or anyone else here, wrong about using an axe. I am sure most people on this forum use an axe or a hatchet on a fairly regular basis. The main idea I wanted to push is, while I am out camping or hiking I am in no way going to process fire wood the same way that I would do it at home. At home I would use a chainsaw, my 20 lb. maul, wedge, eastwing drilling hammer, and a 24" solid steel bar. While camping I like to hone my skills and use/bring less and less gear with me all the time. I am out for efficiency in all aspects of the word pertaining to gear. That is why I use and defend the skill of batoning. This skill goes so far beyond preping fire wood, remember remember hint hint, and in so many positive ways, I am really shocked to see it so discredited by anybody. It is safe and largely efficient.

Another thing, I originally asked if anyone had real cons to batoning. So far, we have only read breaking your knife as the only con. But, lets talk about some cons of the axe/hatchet.

1- they are usually awkward to carry for extended periods of time
2- not as versatile as a knife
3- not as safe as a knife (axe injuries are usually more serious than knife and kids, 8-12, cannot use them safely or efficiently)
4- loss of the functioning handle severely limits the use of the axe (handles can be fashioned but it is hard to effectively attach the head to them)
5- high energy cost

There may be more. I'll admit that I have not always been a huge fan of the axe. I will also admit that I have not used what I would call a high quality one either. I find that I use a hatchet quite often and my maul is just too effective for splitting big rounds. I use a chainsaw to cut the timber up, so really I haven't had a good excuse to purchase or use an axe.

The fact that I can carry a knife that will do all the things I would do with an axe and so much more, just seals the deal for me.

I'm CM Rick, and I am a knife enthusiast.
 
I'll admit that I have not always been a huge fan of the axe. I will also admit that I have not used what I would call a high quality one either.
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The difference between a *quality* axe and, one that is not, is night and day. A PROPERLY (amazing what I see people using) sharpened axe will put a dull or incorrectly sharpened axe to shame. Even the axe must be chosen or tailored for the task at hand. The novice will never understand or appreciate the axe if his selection or maintenance of the axe is poor.

The whole "to baton or not" issue is a mystery in my mind. People have been striking one tool upon another for as long as tools have been made. Sticks and stones, cudgels and mallets, have aided in a million survival chores throughout the centuries of human history and, we have the archeology to prove it. Unfortunately, with our modern life-style and advanced technologies, our manual skills in the outdoors have become very thin or nonexistent. Recapturing these skills means 'looking into our past', finding good and solid instruction and, experimenting with a number of options in order to understand what will work best for you in your environment.

Often these basic forums (as opposed to highly skilled woodcraft or living history forums) are perplexing and confusing to many. Rather than enjoying the concept of "tool options", we want to have one tool DO IT ALL. Truth is, if one tool could do it all, the manufacturing of other tools would never have occurred! Seems simple enough, but evidently it isn't to some. :)

Sticking with manual tools here (yes, I own several chainsaws, hydraulic log splitting machine, and my own forest to play in): The axe can be reasonably safe. The culture that I was raised in was FULL of wood crafters and professional woodsmen who knew something of sharp tools. From a young pup, I watched what the axe could do in the right hands. From the get-go, it didn't take much thought and observation to realize that an axe could move mountains (and they did!). The mattock, saw, and axe would keep the trails clear and, with the knife added, the camp would be comfortable with those few impromptu, handcrafted items of wood created by experienced hands with a variety of tools.

A scene that I remember and often use myself. The cudgel and axe being used together. Very safe, very efficient, very accurate. This is the master wood carver and wood crafter, Wille Sundqvist. BTW, Gransfors Bruks axes looked to Wille for some of their axe designs.
axecudgel1.jpg


A froe and mallet was often the scene with the folks building their homes and farms out of the wilderness.
froemallet1.jpg


Hatchet being used safely WITHOUT swinging the tool with potentially dangerous force.
hatchetuse2.jpg


The basic tools mentioned throughout this thread are, tools that have the capacity to reduce wood to the proportions needed for the task without causing damage to the tool. I am not aware of ANY wood crafter that doesn't use an appropriate knife for final and precise wood reduction (not discussing necessarily firewood here). Flat materials to work with are often an important component in woodcraft (call it 'bushcraft', if you will).
reductionforknife1.jpg

knifeuse1.jpg


When we long-distance or thru-hike with the backpacks, the axes, hatchets, anything heavy stays at home. Those things are not needed when on-the-move. The light weight knife and folding saw will provide all that is needed for an evening camp - providing the climate is not too severe - in which case we wouldn't be out there anyway. On the shorter backpacking trips; the kitchen sink, folding chair, fishing rod and axe go along. The longer canoe trips are never without the axe. Rarely do we actually 'swing' the axe in remote settings and find its value as a durable wedge or splitting tool (as shown above).

Yes! Baton! The cavemen did it! But, don't be senseless and expect your knife, big or small, to perform like an axe! It can't and it won't! :)

BTW, I own knives by many of the makers in this thread. ALL are extremely durable and I haven't hesitated to baton with any of them when that was the correct tool for the job.
 
Dannyboy Leather said:
The difference between a *quality* axe and, one that is not, is night and day. A PROPERLY (amazing what I see people using) sharpened axe will put a dull or incorrectly sharpened axe to shame. Even the axe must be chosen or tailored for the task at hand. The novice will never understand or appreciate the axe if his selection or maintenance of the axe is poor.

The whole "to baton or not" issue is a mystery in my mind. People have been striking one tool upon another for as long as tools have been made. Sticks and stones, cudgels and mallets, have aided in a million survival chores throughout the centuries of human history and, we have the archeology to prove it. Unfortunately, with our modern life-style and advanced technologies, our manual skills in the outdoors have become very thin or nonexistent. Recapturing these skills means 'looking into our past', finding good and solid instruction and, experimenting with a number of options in order to understand what will work best for you in your environment.

Often these basic forums (as opposed to highly skilled woodcraft or living history forums) are perplexing and confusing to many. Rather than enjoying the concept of "tool options", we want to have one tool DO IT ALL. Truth is, if one tool could do it all, the manufacturing of other tools would never have occurred! Seems simple enough, but evidently it isn't to some. :)

Sticking with manual tools here (yes, I own several chainsaws, hydraulic log splitting machine, and my own forest to play in): The axe can be reasonably safe. The culture that I was raised in was FULL of wood crafters and professional woodsmen who knew something of sharp tools. From a young pup, I watched what the axe could do in the right hands. From the get-go, it didn't take much thought and observation to realize that an axe could move mountains (and they did!). The mattock, saw, and axe would keep the trails clear and, with the knife added, the camp would be comfortable with those few impromptu, handcrafted items of wood created by experienced hands with a variety of tools.

A scene that I remember and often use myself. The cudgel and axe being used together. Very safe, very efficient, very accurate. This is the master wood carver and wood crafter, Wille Sundqvist. BTW, Gransfors Bruks axes looked to Wille for some of their axe designs.


A froe and mallet was often the scene with the folks building their homes and farms out of the wilderness.

Hatchet being used safely WITHOUT swinging the tool with potentially dangerous force.

The basic tools mentioned throughout this thread are, tools that have the capacity to reduce wood to the proportions needed for the task without causing damage to the tool. I am not aware of ANY wood crafter that doesn't use an appropriate knife for final and precise wood reduction (not discussing necessarily firewood here). Flat materials to work with are often an important component in woodcraft (call it 'bushcraft', if you will).

When we long-distance or thru-hike with the backpacks, the axes, hatchets, anything heavy stays at home. Those things are not needed when on-the-move. The light weight knife and folding saw will provide all that is needed for an evening camp - providing the climate is not too severe - in which case we wouldn't be out there anyway. On the shorter backpacking trips; the kitchen sink, folding chair, fishing rod and axe go along. The longer canoe trips are never without the axe. Rarely do we actually 'swing' the axe in remote settings and find its value as a durable wedge or splitting tool (as shown above).

Yes! Baton! The cavemen did it! But, don't be senseless and expect your knife, big or small, to perform like an axe! It can't and it won't! :)

BTW, I own knives by many of the makers in this thread. ALL are extremely durable and I haven't hesitated to baton with any of them when that was the correct tool for the job.
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Dannyboy..... that was a very well written/thought out post. :thumbup::cool:
 
CM_Rick said:
I just don't want to come off as some jerk showing off for photos with his big knife. I teach this technique to scouts from age 9 and up, because it is a safe way to process large wood and useful for making certain tools. I think it is a very beneficial survival skill purely for its safety and low energy consumption as compared to the ax or hatchet.

Thank you for all of the added support and pros for this. We have yet to hear one good con.
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We can discuss how we baton with our super uber knives, or discuss teaching 9 year olds woodcraft skills that are appropriate to their age.

Should they know how to baton with a knife or learn how to split wood with an axe?
Do they have the motor skills to baton with a sharp knife?
Do they have the ability to know how hard to hit?
Battoning is a skill that I do not think is suitable for a 9 year old.
There are too many things to go wrong in battoning (as we have discussed here), to the point of being dangerous.

I learnt how to use an axe in Scouts.
I taught scouts how to use an axe.
I taught hand axes, Hudson Bays and full felling axes.
If you are camping with a Troop, it is easy to carry these three size axes.
The smaller the kid, the smaller the axe.
It is quite easy to teach good and safe skills with an axe.

The tradition in our troop was to be able to split matches with all three axes.
The final graduation was with a full feller, to light a non-safety match, by stricking the side of the match.
Over the top? No, this showed full and absolute control of the axe.

And we also learnt how to use a saw, from pruning folding saw, to a metal bow saw, to a two man full windlass saw.
Again all age appropiate.

Scouts taught me how to process wood in a safe, quick and effiecient way using the full range of woodcraft tools. Battoning was never mentioned once.

When I got to the US from England, I worked 2 months in a Scout Camp in Upstate NY in the Adirondaks.
I taught Knife and Axe to about 20 different troops in that time period.
To be honest, none of them knew nothing about knife or axe safety or how to swing an axe with ease.
It is a skill that is getting lost.

Scouts is a great place for kids to learn knife, axe, and saw, safely.
 
If the thought or sight of a knife being batonned makes your blood pressure rise........ close this thread now. ;)















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Neeman,

The point I make about teaching a 9 year old how to baton is about how safe I believe batoning is. I go by the books in scouting. At age 9, or 3rd grade, we teach the boys how to use a knife, COMPLETELY. This means I teach them how to do everything with a knife properly and safely. Later, at age 12 we teach them how to use an axe, hatchet, and saw safely and effectively.

I really don't know where you are going here. You obviously have a lot of scouting experience, and I think we might teach a little differently. Doesn't mean either of us are wrong. I teach them to be skillful and careful with a knife first. Then when they get an axe in their hands, they will already have an idea of how the wood is going to react when worked.
 
Had never heard of batoning before joining this site.

Id done it before sure, bur I referred to it the same as my dad did.... "let me borrow your knife to hammer through this log"

I do it as part of confidence testing on a new blade, and sometimes for fun while camping.

If I need fire, I saw up some wood and make fire. Might do some batoning while I warm up by the fire for kicks.

Would love to see a custom Froe made up sometime, planer blade might work nice.

Baton a cheap stainless butterknife sometime if you havnt... just to see how well it works.
 
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