Batoning, what is the controversy?

Joe. It's not about testing. It's about real life. Sawing, splitting, batoning, fuzz sticks, all the above. The only test is; did we get the fire going? We did.

I never said it didn't work especially when you need it to. 4 days with just a knife on a beach, or a week with just a PSK and I batoned too. In real life, sure, whatever, and thats all that counts. On a canoe trip I have an axe and bring it too. I'm saying it shouldn't be the only basis for testing. It is about testing, sometimes, especially on the forums.
 
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Joe. It's not about testing. It's about real life. Two week canoe trip in the Yukon Territory. Cold rain for 2 days, folks I'm responsible for cold, wet, shivering. We make camp. Fire has to happen quick. It's not like gymnastics where you get points for form. Anything goes. The knives and axes and saws came out and everyone did what had to be done to get that fire going. Sawing, splitting, batoning, fuzz sticks, all the above. The only test is; did we get the fire going? We did.

Exactly, that's when it counts. Batoning has typically been a means of just dealing with what I have on hand most of the time, there are usually other ways I could deal with things. It has been really a matter of well being only once...we were a few miles along the Cumberland trail on the side of a mountain, and it was pouring rain. My oldest daughter (only daughter at the time) was chilled and needed warming quickly. It was dark, there were many pitfalls between rocks out there so rather than hunt for smaller wood I started breaking wrist sized limbs off a downed pine tree and batoning them to get to the inner wood to burn for the initial fuel With the issue survival knife pictured below.

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However, it has since that day been a test that any knife I will keep and carry to the woods must pass.

These are three of my go to knives that I trust to take some abuse. They and a few others have passed this test.

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I do however find it hilarious that a lot of the high dollar knives so many people are afraid to baton would likely handle it just fine, but people are afraid to because of the price paid.....what was the point unless it is an antique in a glass case.
 
I would certainly trust any of my JK knives to hold up to anything. I always have a good tinder kit when I am out and about. However If need be, I would not hesitate to do whatever it takes.
 
I don't baton with my knives, but I expect them to be able to if i ever needed to. Every time I see somebody battoning with a knife I own, I think it's a good thing.

You never know...
 
I see nothing wrong with batoning with a knife....
or using a screwdriver as a chisel...
or a Crescent wrench for a hammer....I do it all the time....:thumbup:
 
I see nothing wrong with batoning with a knife....
or using a screwdriver as a chisel...
or a Crescent wrench for a hammer....I do it all the time....:thumbup:

That's it really.

In my view, the whole of Wilderness and Survival Skills is about improvising. You make do with what you have or what you choose to carry. If you protest against batoning categorically, then you might as well protest splitting paracord to get the inner strands, folding tin foil to boil water, or filling a condom with much more fluid than it was ever intentionally designed to hold. I would argue that each of these accepted W&SS improvisations destroy the integrity of the original object, even if you use the best technique. Yet, in general, these things are accepted without a second thought.

Using a knife to baton through wood, doesn't (as far as I can determine) destroy the integrity of the original object provided you have proper technique. Sure, you'll have to sharpen it afterwards, but that's the decision you make. If the choice came down to a dull blade post batoning or hypothermia, i'd go with the former.

And the tougher the blade, the better for me if I found myself cold, wet, and freezing to death. Am I really going to be thinking about proper batoning technique while disoriented with a loss of motor skills in extreme wet cold? I would hope so, but chances are, all you'll be able to think about is how you can't feel your fingers and how much time you have left to get that fire going. In that case, I would be very thankful to have a blade that I had already tested out under ideal conditions. That's one less variable for me to worry about when conditions are hellish. I'd do whatever I could, as best I could, to stay alive.

Is everyone going to find themselves in such a situation? No. I dayhike in temperate California weather, so chances of me finding myself in that situation are slim though possible. Do I want to know if I can trust batoning with my blade, should that 0.0001% chance occur? Sure. Do I need to baton most of the time? No. But my situation and environment is independent of another's. Thus, what I determine necessary in a knife's design and how I use it are also independent of another.

Given a choice, I'd pick the best tool for the job, but if all I had was my FB and no other option but to baton, sure, I would.



And even if one batons when not in mortal danger, who cares? It is another skill in the toolbox, as people have said. Some want to do it to practice, in case they ever need to do it. Some do it because they actually like to baton, same as those who light fires with steel wool and a battery (neither of which was designed with firemaking in mind) when a perfectly good lighter is sitting in their pocket.


I think the definition of a knife is subjective and dynamic. It only has to fulfill your requirements, not the requirement of every other knife user out there. Ultimately, you are you and the external environment is the external environment. If the tool that you call a knife doesn't do a specific task for you, I believe you are allowed to change it or seek out a design that does. If that design doesn't conform to another's subjective definition of a knife, so be it; they are not the ones using your tool. You are using your tool. If you don't want to baton, don't baton. If you want to baton, baton. I think the problem lies in the communication of the word "knife" and everything it encompasses. Each user has a unique conception of the tool that he or she calls a "knife". Functionality-wise, if the tool does what you need it to do, and fulfills your concept, then why does another person's concept of that tool matter to you?

If we start telling people batoning is foolish, then what's to stop people from saying taking apart paracord is foolish, or folding tin foil is foolish, or filling a condom with water is foolish... that improvising is foolish?
 
Thats the one that was Paul Bos treated right! Talk about a FUN MACHETE to use.
 
Thats the one that was Paul Bos treated right! Talk about a FUN MACHETE to use.
 
Exactly, that's when it counts. Batoning has typically been a means of just dealing with what I have on hand most of the time, there are usually other ways I could deal with things. It has been really a matter of well being only once...we were a few miles along the Cumberland trail on the side of a mountain, and it was pouring rain. My oldest daughter (only daughter at the time) was chilled and needed warming quickly. It was dark, there were many pitfalls between rocks out there so rather than hunt for smaller wood I started breaking wrist sized limbs off a downed pine tree and batoning them to get to the inner wood to burn for the initial fuel With the issue survival knife pictured below.

may i suggest that in such a critical situ, that you use a candle and a heat sheet wrapped around her to warm up?

jest saying.....;)
 
I really don't want any knife that is stated to not be able to handle proper batoning technique. I might as well carry broken glass to handle my cutting tasks.

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There is a website that has an article on how to break a knife by batoning , even a good one !! Does anyone have the source ?.
 
If I were forced to choose between a knife that can baton but cuts like crap or a knife that cuts like a laser but can't handle batoning, I would choose the latter. Luckily I don't have to decide. My Barkie Aurora does both.
 
Yes Horrace Kephart talks about battoning but they called it Froeing. In the pic that they have on pg 208 of his book the knife looks like a RAMBO IV knife with a handle on it and the guy in the pic has a wooden log as his batton to hit the spine of the knife to split off some wood from his log.

Bryan

I had exchanged E-mails with MDP a couple of weeks ago on this subject and told him about froe knives as well! They were used for making shingles, etc.

I'm not so much being "against" batoning as being against people who destroy a company's product doing something that is incredibly stupid and then claiming such a stupid "thing" would be essential for survival, they go and smear the company online. I think that's total B.S.

What does splitting cordwood in the woods have to do with survival? How does one get cordwood in the woods in a survival situation yet still need to use a fixed blade knife to split it with, eh? Makes no sense. Sounds like you're in camp and you want to do something and claim it's a necessary survival skill when it's really just a choice to do somthing in most cases.

The fact that John Wiseman advised to take a rock to the spine of a knife is incredible and only proves one thing, no matter what "name" you are dealing with when it comes to this stuff, they can still be full of crap on occasion.
 
I really don't want any knife that is stated to not be able to handle proper batoning technique. I might as well carry broken glass to handle my cutting tasks.

"Proper batoning technique" is like saying there is a proper technique to hammer nails with a crescent wrench, etc. Baton if you have to, but it is statements like this that create the controversy and fiascos that follow.
 
I had exchanged E-mails with MDP a couple of weeks ago on this subject and told him about froe knives as well! They were used for making shingles, etc.

I'm not so much being "against" batoning as being against people who destroy a company's product doing something that is incredibly stupid and then claiming such a stupid "thing" would be essential for survival, they go and smear the company online. I think that's total B.S.

What does splitting cordwood in the woods have to do with survival? How does one get cordwood in the woods in a survival situation yet still need to use a fixed blade knife to split it with, eh? Makes no sense. Sounds like you're in camp and you want to do something and claim it's a necessary survival skill when it's really just a choice to do somthing in most cases.

The fact that John Wiseman advised to take a rock to the spine of a knife is incredible and only proves one thing, no matter what "name" you are dealing with when it comes to this stuff, they can still be full of crap on occasion.

AMEN! :thumbup:
 
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