Batoning, what is the controversy?

[Don Rearic]

Excellent point Thomas. The batoning controversy really became a controversy with the whole backlash in the BF community against knifetests.com. Without getting into that debate, there is an implicit assertion that batoning or testing knives by batoning is somehow similar to destructive knife tests.

For the record, I was not talking about that website. Is that where people dress up like Jason from Friday the 13th with hockey masks and crap?

I also don't think that batoning is always destructive.

Calling it improper or abusive are simply labels used by some to attempt to control the behaviour of others.

Buddy, I don't think so at all! I think that is really reaching into psychology/psychiatry a bit much. I don't care what other people do really, this is just a discussion forum, after all. Ultimately, if someone wants to go out and do some incredibly stupid things and die, that's their business.

Talking about batoning as a skill and demonstrating how it can be applied effectively, what conditions it works best under and they types of tools that can be used with it is called education.

I agree. I don't know about the high fallootin' ring of getting an "education," but you can show people stuff.

If you don't like it than you don't have to post.

You're a smart guy, that's not a smart comment. Let me tell you why. Even if someone is wrong, they can come into a thread and post something and it allows you to have a whetstone with which you can sharpen your own thoughts, it can give you other things to experiment with, etc., etc., etc.

Even I get pissed off with trolling and stuff at times, but, for the most part, some really good thought processes can come out of that sort of thing.

The comments about batoning cordwood were specifically geared towards a moron online - nothing more and nothing less.

I for the most part like carrying axes when I know I'm going to split wood. They actually do work better. I don't like hatchets and I don't always want to take my axe with me. Under those conditions, batoning is a useful thing to know. Finding wood scattered on the ground isn't usually an option for me. Burning a large uncut log in sections is something I don't feel comfortable or safe doing. I prefer a controlled fire that fits in a defined boundary and I can put it out when I want to put it out.

I like hatchets but don't necessarily like carrying them! Folding saws are very nice and I use them regularly to buzz through dead trees that have blown over, to get the thicker limbs off for firewood, etc. :::shrug:::

 

[kgd]

You're a smart guy, that's not a smart comment. Let me tell you why. Even if someone is wrong, they can come into a thread and post something and it allows you to have a whetstone with which you can sharpen your own thoughts, it can give you other things to experiment with, etc., etc., etc.

Fair enough, I'll give you that!

Ultimately, if someone wants to go out and do some incredibly stupid things and die, that's their business.

Now lets re-review your words above

 

[Don Rearic]

No! We don't have to review that! Dat's why I said "ultimately."

If people think redundancy is stupid and they die because of it, errah, what to do, what to do? You get the idea.

 

[Ravaillac]

I'll admit to having gotten one of my blades stuck in a piece of wood mid-way through it. That sucked. I did what any reasonable person would do. I grabbed another blade and started batoning through the reverse side (of course I have a bunch of knives on me ). It would have been pretty funny if that one got stuck too

When I was in the boyscouts I can remember of a log which ended with two hatchets and three wood chisels stuck in it. And the damn log wouldn't give any of them back, in the end I think we had to saw through it to free them.

As for what is strong enough to batton, many people have mentionned they would choose that knife or that other one other thickness.

Funny thing is that I have never considered thickness as essential to toughness, I'd rank it far being type of steel, heat treatment, heat treatment quality... See machetes: many of them are thinner then certain far shorter knives, yet, they are plenty of tough.
I like thickness for chopping, putting weight behind the edge. Thickness is essential in lateral bending strenght i.e. prying, but if battonning is properly applied there isn't so much side way sollicitation. Actually a thick knife will be a lot more difficult to insert into wood, so what you gain in thickness, you might loose it to higher sollicitation.

And again, some battoning is easy and useful, go for it.
Some battoning is over-complicated and generally easily avoidable, just get another piece of wood.

 

[kgd]

Very true Ravaillac on the thickness. I have both thick (1/4") and thinner (1/8") knives that I often use in batoning and the jury is up which is best. A thinner knife tends to slide in much better but on the other hand a thicker knife tends to force a split earlier. Which is best, depends as much on the wood you are working your way through as it does the blade and its properties.

I would have loved to see a picture of the old log that stole all the tools. Sounds legendary

 

[Thomas Linton]

Politician is to honesty as American Elm is to splitting.

 

[Guyon]

I baton. Therefore I am.

A dose of common sense goes a long way. I don't baton folders since I almost always have a fixed blade and don't want to mess up a perfectly good lock. I even have some fixed-blade Busses I wouldn't baton unless I had to because they have thin tips. I have other knives I've batoned the heck out of though.

 

[Big Mike]

The controversy about batoning is that some folks seem to think that there’s a controversy about batoning.

Batoning is just another technique then can be employed with a knife. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Not everyone needs to, or wants to, baton. But done with the right tool and in a proper manor, it is no big deal.

In fact, I believe there is more stress put on a knife by chopping then proper batoning.

Everyone has to make there own choice about how they use the tools the have in the field. Having only one knife and being stuck in survival situation is not a good time to learn to baton. But trying different techniques with different tools when your out in a safe situation is.

You should not baton with a knife with a fragile edge or a fragile handle material, I would add that you should not chop with that tool either.

A tough field knife will take a properly used baton with ease, but even the toughest knife can be made to fail if enough force is applied.

The controversy comes from people who don’t baton trying to tell people who do baton that they should not baton. :foot:

 

[Mentor]

The controversy about batoning is that some folks seem to think that there’s a controversy about batoning.

That statement, in and of itself, is controversial.

 

[Don Rearic]

The only axe I have to grind, pun intended, is the use of the controversy to slam other people's knives, etc., or to put forth the stupid notions that batoning through chainsawed cordwood has anything to do with what you are going to encounter in a survival situation. Batoning can allow you to make very precise cuts for trap triggers, for example. I just think when people start using a knife and a club like an axe, it's boneheaded.

 

[hardheart]

like saying there is a proper technique to hammer nails with a crescent wrench.

Which there is. There is also improper technique for hammering nails with a hammer. Proper would be the one that doesn't break the tool and minimizes risk of injury, while accomplishing the task. Improper would fail to get the job done, or end with the practitioner in a bad way, no matter what tools they were using.

 

[coyotebc]

We had a wood fireplace at home when I was growing up, many times we batoned kindling in the living room with an old butcher knife.
My dad did it and I do it, when camping I take a hatchet or axe, so I generally don't do it. However I taught my kids the proper way to do it, and sometimes when camping or hunting I do it just for fun

 

[coyotebc]

The only axe I have to grind, pun intended, is the use of the controversy to slam other people's knives, etc., or to put forth the stupid notions that batoning through chainsawed cordwood has anything to do with what you are going to encounter in a survival situation. Batoning can allow you to make very precise cuts for trap triggers, for example. I just think when people start using a knife and a club like an axe, it's boneheaded.

If it is boneheaded to baton why do some manufacturers warranty their knives if broken while batoning'
Mike Stewart considers it an expected type of use for many of his outdoor knives.
If the manufacturer considers it ok why shouldn't the user.

If I knew you I might take offense to you saying I am a bonehead because I use a knife differently then you. However not knowing you, I really don't care

 

[Snake Dr.]

Batoning is normal, traditional, and non-abusive. At least for camp knives. I would not (could not) baton my needle-tipped Spyderco Ronin, nor would I baton my folders. Thin Stainless steel and extreme high hardness knives are not well suited for batoning. They also do not make the best field/survival knives.

I would never buy a knife from a maker who thinks batoning is abusive. Even a thin machete will sustain no damage from batoning. If a camp knife breaks just from batoning it is flawed in design or heat treat, and not worth owning.

I agree 100 % ! A well Made & properly Hardened/Tempered Heat Treated Steel Blade should Hold Up to Batoning with no Damage to the Blade, But to each there own, Different Stroke's For Different Folk's we all have our own Style, Good Knive's "Just Aint Made For Slicing & Dicing" Sure there are different Style's that are purpose built, But I'm pretty selective on the Knive's that I Buy and Trust the Quality of the Blade/Steel from the maker or Manufacturer, Heck Check out the Video with the Old Hickory Butcher Knife Hammer Test, I'd say for a Very Well Made Very Affordable Knife, That Video say's It all !

 

[Joben]

A few people have mentioned how they dislike it when other people slam knives that can't baton. I see the point, and I don't think all knives are made for it, or should be.

One thing I think we all should be able to agree on though...
If it's sold as a "survival knife" and it can't stand up to it...THEN there is a major problem.

 

[Carney C]

In "Wilderness?Survival?"' seems like you would want a blade that could get the job done!, "batoning" for survival, should'nt be a question! In "wilderness/survival"who would want a blade that couldn't baton? Leave the show knives in the city or the drawer, bring the real knives in the woods! Seems like a lot of folks don't know about knives, wilderness, or survival!

 

[Carney C]

And the Masked dude destroying blades is doing his thing, showing what it takes to destroy a blade! Not how a knife holds up in the wild, but showing people how there knife will or won't hold up. It is always good to know your limits before you get in a situation, right? I think he hurts a lot of feeling when people see there toys want cut it!

 

[Don Rearic]

Hey, do what you want to do! It's rather funny, it's like a religion now to some people, the whole survival thing. The only thing I ever criticized was people slamming other knives because they don't fit their idea of what a knife should be, i.e., any fixed blade they want for an outdoor knife should basically be a froe knife. I never said I wouldn't do it but I think when people start making comments about wrenches actually being used as a hammer... :jerkit:

 

[Don Rearic]

And the Masked dude destroying blades is doing his thing, showing what it takes to destroy a blade! Not how a knife holds up in the wild, but showing people how there knife will or won't hold up. It is always good to know your limits before you get in a situation, right? I think he hurts a lot of feeling when people see there toys want cut it!

Oh boy.

 

[Carney C]

Isn't this a "Wilderness and survival skills" thread?