Batoning, what is the controversy?

[Thomas Linton]

I'm not so much being "against" batoning as being against people who destroy a company's product doing something that is incredibly stupid and then claiming such a stupid "thing" would be essential for survival, they go and smear the company online. I think that's total B.S.

Sounds about right. Is this a reference to something outside this thread, or did I just miss the "smear"?

What does splitting cordwood in the woods have to do with survival? How does one get cordwood in the woods in a survival situation yet still need to use a fixed blade knife to split it with, eh? Makes no sense. Sounds like you're in camp and you want to do something and claim it's a necessary survival skill when it's really just a choice to do somthing in most cases.

I can't recall seeing cordwood in the wilderness and have never batoned cordwood. Seems like splitting slabs off the side would be easier than trying to split it in two.

The fact that John Wiseman advised to take a rock to the spine of a knife is incredible and only proves one thing, no matter what "name" you are dealing with when it comes to this stuff, they can still be full of crap on occasion.

I can't find such a statement by Wiseman -- in his book or via Google. Da "Bear" apparently did it in one of his unreality programs.

"Proper batoning technique" is like saying there is a proper technique to hammer nails with a crescent wrench, etc. Baton if you have to, but it is statements like this that create the controversy and fiascos that follow.

So you would say that all batoning is equally stressful on the knife?

 

[Mack]

I can't find such a statement by Wiseman -- in his book or via Google. Da "Bear" apparently did it in one of his unreality programs.

Actually John depicts this on page 274 of the Survival Handbook.
"Even a quite small knife placed on the end of a log and hit with a rock may split it." He goes on to say, "But if you have only one knife don't take the risk of damaging it."
By the way, I enjoy batoning. Even with my little JK EWOK.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Oh. More than one book.

"Don't misuse your knife" Survive Safely Anywhere: The SAS Survival Manual, Crown Publishers (1986), at p. 19. (P. 274 in this book discusses hurricanes.)

 

[crossada]

There is a website that has an article on how to break a knife by batoning , even a good one !! Does anyone have the source ?.

perhaps this is the one you remember?
http://www.barkriverknives.com/docs/batoning.pdf

 

[Fonly]

wow, surprised this stayed as civil as it did, I've seen these threads go down fast.

I do find it funny how such a insignificant thing can cause such an up roar, but then again, I've been on both sides of the baton, or not to baton thing in the last few years.

Plain and simple, in my realm of the world, I dont need to do it, but as wet as it can get out here, its nice to know I have a way to get to some dry wood in the middle of something if I wasn't looking forward to bringing an axe with me. That said, I think the whole " my knife can baton" is something people like to brag about, but again, when I first came to this site, I had no Idea what batonning was. I used and axe to chop and split, and what did I use a knife for, thats right, to cut things.....

 

[Fonly]

For what its worth too, I now teach Survival courses to our canadian forces in the northern out back of alberta, and no where in my planer is how to baton, when it comes down to it, and you have only one knife, there is absolutly no need to put your last knife at risk, I tell them to even refrain from using there tools. BTW, we dont have knives issued to us, we have multitools. The last Exersice I was on, I used nothing more than a CRKT M-16 13sf, and a Spyderco Military. Though your multitool has a file on it, how can you sharpen a knife, with the file on the same tool?

I guess you should just hope to get lost with a buddy, or at least someone else with another multitool.

 

[Mentor]

Just a few more thoughts:

1. Reasonable people can disagree about this, but I am just not convinced that batoning a knife necessarily constitutes misuse or abuse. I just haven't seen any evidence of this in my own experience, and - outside some 'destruction tests' - it doesn't seem to happen to others regularly either.
2. We're a bunch of knife enthusiasts with wilderness & survival interests. We like to get out there and enjoy our collections, practice techniques, play with steel & wood, etc. But when you get right down to it, there are a limited number of general types of survival / bushcraft knife activities. You can chop, whittle, cut notches, slice, clean game, prep food, etc. Batoning is a potentially useful technique that also adds to the range of things one can do to put a knife through its paces. This occurred to me while I was reading through Dan Koster's giveaway thread, where entrants were asked to post what they would do with the contest nessie if they won it. Lots of cutting, slicing, and whittling activities were mentioned, and these are indeed the types of tasks one would expect to use such a knife for. Batoning just adds something else to the mix.
3. I find it interesting that some opponents of batoning argue that it is not necessary, or some variation on that theme (ex. "I have never needed to baton"). Fair enough. I don't think anyone would argue that it is absolutely necessary - and few would suggest that it's more effective than chopping with a good axe. But claims about necessity can make for odd arguments. After all, there are many W&SS / bushcraft skills or gear items that could reasonably be deemed unnecessary by some. Personally, I'm a fan of everyone making their own judgements and choices as to the usefulness of a technique.

All the best,

- Mike

 

[savagesicslayer]

I feel that batoning is fine IF you know the limits of your tools.I have batoned many,many times with my BRKT Aurora,Bravo-1 All of my Fallkniven knives.Most reciently I batoned a pile of wood on a multi-day hiking trip because we were soaked from a daylong heavy rain.That knife was my Forum knife from NWA.I didn't split anything bigger around than my arm.We saved the axes for chopping down trees quickly rather than risk dulling them on the rocky ground.

 

[Snake Dr.]

Exactly, that's when it counts. Batoning has typically been a means of just dealing with what I have on hand most of the time, there are usually other ways I could deal with things. It has been really a matter of well being only once...we were a few miles along the Cumberland trail on the side of a mountain, and it was pouring rain. My oldest daughter (only daughter at the time) was chilled and needed warming quickly. It was dark, there were many pitfalls between rocks out there so rather than hunt for smaller wood I started breaking wrist sized limbs off a downed pine tree and batoning them to get to the inner wood to burn for the initial fuel With the issue survival knife pictured below.

However, it has since that day been a test that any knife I will keep and carry to the woods must pass.

These are three of my go to knives that I trust to take some abuse. They and a few others have passed this test.

I do however find it hilarious that a lot of the high dollar knives so many people are afraid to baton would likely handle it just fine, but people are afraid to because of the price paid.....what was the point unless it is an antique in a glass case.

I alway's have a Knife on me capable of Batoning or Chopping Down a Tree for that matter, All's I can say Is In my Neck of the Wood's along the Missouri River Bottom's, I've spent 100's of night's Camping on the River and alway's had no problen getting a Fire going In Wet Condition's or In the Middle of Winter on Snow & Ice covered Terrain during Trapping Season, I alway's get the Wood up off the ground and never had a need to Baton, But I sure would If I had to


Hey MistWalker I like your Pilot's Survival Knife ! Mine's marked Camillus Cutlery May 1984, What's your's marked on the back of the Sheath ?There a Great Knife I got this Beauty at a Garage Sale last year for 10.00, It's a Real Work Horse,

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Batoning is normal, traditional, and non-abusive. At least for camp knives. I would not (could not) baton my needle-tipped Spyderco Ronin, nor would I baton my folders. Thin Stainless steel and extreme high hardness knives are not well suited for batoning. They also do not make the best field/survival knives.

I would never buy a knife from a maker who thinks batoning is abusive. Even a thin machete will sustain no damage from batoning. If a camp knife breaks just from batoning it is flawed in design or heat treat, and not worth owning.

 

[Mistwalker]

That one is an Ontario and is stamped on the pommel 5-01, that one is the fifth or sixth one I've owned....I keep passing them on to friends after teaching them a few things with them, but this one is now sentimental and not going anywhere. I like yours too, this is only the second Ontario the others were Camillus....I keep hunting for a six inch in decent condition....wish they'd make a run of those.

 

[Snake Dr.]

Thank's for the Info. I know they've been making them since WWII maybe earlyer I'm not sure, Ya the one I have Is a 5" Blade, But It sure Is a Heavy Duty Knife, I seen a Surplus Supply Company In Shotgun New's that had them Military Surplus for I think 40.00 something, I'll look the add up and see what they are,

Sorry For Getting Off Topic !

 

[Yoshi]

I see nothing wrong in batoning, I was doing it long before I realised there was a thing called Bushcraft!

 

[the possum]

Pounding big blades through wood has been an accepted woodworking/carpentry practice for centuries. Get over it.

See: Froe

 

[Ravaillac]

Pounding big blades through wood has been an accepted woodworking/carpentry practice for centuries. Get over it.

See: Froe

http://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/froe-panel.jpg?w=225&h=300

I think there is a gross misunderstanding about battoning.
I have no problem with what the guy in your picture is doing. Thin wood, perfectly aligned fibers. Piece of cake, I'd do it any day.
Most people fear to break their knife, my main concern would be to have stuck in log.
Now I've splits cords of oak and beech, and I have horror stories about axes stuck in logs, impossible to get out.

Battoning can be a completly different ball game depending what you try to batton.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I think there is a gross misunderstanding about battoning.
I have no problem with what the guy in your picture is doing. Thin wood, perfectly aligned fibers. Piece of cake, I'd do it any day.
Most people fear to break their knife, my main concern would be to have stuck in log.
Now I've splits cords of oak and beech, and I have horror stories about axes stuck in logs, impossible to get out.

Battoning can be a completly different ball game depending what you try to batton.

It's possible to overdo anything, yes? Isn't the trick to have a feel for the limits of the tool and knowledge of the better techniques for use? I have a nice little knife that someone threw away in disgust after breaking off 1/4" of the tip in the course of carving some oak into a totem pole. He blamed the knife, but I think it was "pilot error." After reprofiling, the knife has been good for me, but I'd never try gouging 1/2" deep in oak with a fine point on 1/8" stock.

 

[Don Rearic]

Sounds about right. Is this a reference to something outside this thread, or did I just miss the "smear"?

Thomas,

It was on another forum. A Cold Steel Bowie, it was a Recon Scout or Trailmater variant of some kind, failed while being batonned/batoned through a frozen piece of cordwood. Another member took some other guy to task on it, that it was just a veiled attack on Cold Steel, and it was. It was just stupid.

I can't recall seeing cordwood in the wilderness and have never batoned cordwood. Seems like splitting slabs off the side would be easier than trying to split it in two.

There were multiple things wrong with the reporting of the knife failure. My point is, if you have cordwood in a survival situation, you found it at the cabin you just broke into or whatever or, you have a chainsaw and all of this is moot.

I can't find such a statement by Wiseman -- in his book or via Google. Da "Bear" apparently did it in one of his unreality programs.

I was just remarking on it because someone else earlier in this thread reported that. I think it is stupid. Back when my Dad was alive, he was snickering when someone did that through a deer's pelvic bone, using a rock on the back of a Buck General, IIRC...

So you would say that all batoning is equally stressful on the knife?

Nope. I'm not even against doing it! My Dad did it with a stick and a knife on deer bone. But some of the extreme things you see online and what some people require out of a knife is stupid. It is tied up with pride of ownership and so many other things that are beyond the scope of this thread. But, pride of ownership doesn't really have Jack Squat to do with this stuff but people want to inject it.

We already touched on the froe knife. I have a Charlie Ridge (short) Golok I received in a trade from someone in here. It's an awesome knife and I might just be able to baton this thing through a Lexus.

That Golok also looks like a smaller froe knife!

As for the cracks about using screwdrivers as chisels and the rest of that, feel free to do so! The tools belong to you but don't fool yourself that using tools improperly is somehow intelligent because you are improvising, etc. Sure, if you must in the field, use some tool for something it was not designed to do, as long as you don't risk personal injury which would compound your problem of being in a survival situation, you could do what you have to do. To deliberately carry a knife when you fully intend on using it as a hatchet...if it fails or you slip, you get what you deserve. You use a wrench for a hammer and you bust yourself up or screw up whatever you are trying to do, you're a knucklehead.

(Not "you," Thomas, just commenting on other people in general.)

 

[kgd]

It's possible to overdo anything, yes? Isn't the trick to have a feel for the limits of the tool and knowledge of the better techniques for use? I have a nice little knife that someone threw away in disgust after breaking off 1/4" of the tip in the course of carving some oak into a totem pole. He blamed the knife, but I think it was "pilot error." After reprofiling, the knife has been good for me, but I'd never try gouging 1/2" deep in oak with a fine point on 1/8" stock.

Excellent point Thomas. The batoning controversy really became a controversy with the whole backlash in the BF community against knifetests.com. Without getting into that debate, there is an implicit assertion that batoning or testing knives by batoning is somehow similar to destructive knife tests.

I think this is an extremist view that bears very little resemblance as to how I use this technique or what my motivations for batoning are. Calling it improper or abusive are simply labels used by some to attempt to control the behaviour of others. I think it is rather silly. Talking about batoning as a skill and demonstrating how it can be applied effectively, what conditions it works best under and they types of tools that can be used with it is called education. If you don't like it than you don't have to post.

Also - all those comments about splitting corded wood. Yes, this is often how batoning is shown because it is more convenient to do so. You don't have to have pre-cut wood in order to use the technique. You can cross baton also. Its a little tougher on the knife, but as Thomas illustrates above, just because you start an activity doesn't mean you have to complete it. Really, you can always quit before things get too hard on the blade. If you practice the method regularly, you will quickly develop a feel for what is acceptable and what isn't regarding how your knife performs.

I for the most part like carrying axes when I know I'm going to split wood. They actually do work better. I don't like hatchets and I don't always want to take my axe with me. Under those conditions, batoning is a useful thing to know. Finding wood scattered on the ground isn't usually an option for me. Burning a large uncut log in sections is something I don't feel comfortable or safe doing. I prefer a controlled fire that fits in a defined boundary and I can put it out when I want to put it out.

 

[Don Rearic]

Now I've splits cords of oak and beech, and I have horror stories about axes stuck in logs, impossible to get out.

Black Walnut's mommy was a whore.

 

[kgd]

I'll admit to having gotten one of my blades stuck in a piece of wood mid-way through it. That sucked. I did what any reasonable person would do. I grabbed another blade and started batoning through the reverse side (of course I have a bunch of knives on me ). It would have been pretty funny if that one got stuck too - I will admit that would have been downright hilarious