Benchmade 710 - No new axis spring for me.

Ok, I have another opinion that might not be popular to the purists who swear by the BM warranty. I feel that other companies should start making aftermarket parts for all these knives, so you don't have to rely on a bull headed company that refuses to accomodate it's customers.

Just so there is no confusion. I love Benchmade knives and the products they make. I even agree with their decision to void the warranty if their product is disassembled if that is what they want to do. I don't, however, agree with the policy to not make parts available to their customers. These are my thoughts, and I'm sticking to them.

Mike
 
Now there's an interestingly American response. Instead of whining about something, why not see it as a market opportunity?

Years and years ago, in Kansas City, to make a telephone call, you lifted the phone, cranked a few times, waited for the operator, told the operator who you wanted to talk to, and the operator connected you. A local undertaker noticed that his business had suddenly dropped off. The phone just wasn't ringing. He investigated and discovered that the phone company had recently hired a new operator: the wife of the other local undertaker. Obviously, when people rung the operator and asked for an undertaker, she was connecting them to her husband's shop. If this happened today, he would have sued the phone company demanding damages and that the court mandate a program under which the phone company would have to keep records of all calls asking for undertakers and which firm they were connected to. Fortunately for us, this did not happen today. Instead of going to court, this undertaker simply invented the automatic telephone switch. He sold it to Western Electric and the last telephone switches still using his design were removed from the public network in the United States just a few years ago because they can not accomdate necessary expansion of the North American Numbering Scheme.

So, Mr. Medic1210, let us all know when you've got your website up.
 
Badguy and Medic, I understand your point but I think you are holding Benchmade to a standard that no other company can meet either. If they were the only ones who would not send you the part you want I could understand but no one is doing it to my knowledge.

I am by no means a BM fanatic, do a search and you'd see I have been pretty outspoken during my tenure here regarding their quality control and boring designs. (I own about 8 BM's BTW)

But I think what you guys and others are doing is very unreasonable by expecting them to do something that arguably no other company is doing either. Screws, clips, maybe washers but I've never heard of a company sending any other major parts out, and I've been doing this a long time!

Back in 1996 or 1997 I called BM and asked them to sell me raw parts for doing customizations, I got a resounding NO!

I'm all for the manufacturing of 3rd party parts. You can't go to Autozone and buy genuine GM parts (maybe in some cases..), but you can buy them made by 20 other companies.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to make most of what you guys want myself, but I have no plans to go into business doing it. Heck, I may try Artsigs suggestion just for the hell of it. :)
 
Sorry for another post but I always do my best thinking on the toilet... anyway...

If you are willing to pay for the parts from BM, why not put a post in the WTB section for the bm you're looking for, who cares if it's a beater or broken. Then scalp it for parts, you'll always have an extra part for one of your favorite knives and you may be able to pick it up or trade into it cheap...

Just a thought.
 
Gollnick,

What a lovely story, and as almost always, I damn near fell asleep while you babbled on and beat around the bush before making a point (one of which I guess I didn't catch). Anyway, since I noticed a bit of a smarta$$ demeaning tone, I'll give you my response.

I am a Paramedic, not a mechanic, machinist, fabricator, entrepeneur, businessman, website designer, etc. Therefore, I have very limited know-how as far as starting a business, or making aftermarket parts. I was merely suggesting that if Benchmade or any other knife company won't sell the parts to fix their knives, then somebody ought to make and sell them in the aftermarket. A practice that is quite common in any other industry. You can find car parts, truck parts, gun parts, home entertainment parts, computer parts, camera parts, etc in the aftermarket. I haven't seen any of the stable businesses go under because somebody else sold parts to their products. I consider Benchmade to be a stable business, and one that wouldn't be hurt by somebody else selling a screw or spring to fit their knives. Since you seem to have the know how about just about every subject, why don't you take your own advise and let me know when your website is up.

Oh, and I said almost always earlier, because I do find some of your posts very informative, and have learned some things from you in my short time here. I do, however, have a right to my opinion, as does everybody else on this forum. I'm sorry you don't agree with it in this occasion. I don't agree with yours on this occasion either, but I will still be your friend, and continue to learn from your posts.

Mike
 
Originally posted by cpirtle
Screws, clips, maybe washers but I've never heard of a company sending any other major parts out, and I've been doing this a long time!
Click to expand...

Only problem is that the washers require taking the knife apart, so Benchmade will not send them to you. The only way to have your washers upgraded to the Phosphor Bronze is to send the knife in. Therefore, you are without a perfectly functional knife for a week or so (or much longer if you live overseas) just to have the washers upgraded. So, you see, you should be able to respect what I'm saying. I don't wan't Benchmade to make every part available so someone could build a knife from scratch, but if you have a broken part, they should give you the option of replacing it on your own, like the washers.

Mike
 
I wasn't referring to BM in that segment you quoted, it was a general reference to parts knife companies will send in general.

Chris Reeve sent me replacement washers (at a charge) when I got pulled away from an unassembled Sebenza and the cat got to the pieces and lost a washer, so I felt it was only right to throw washers in there. Not sure of anyone else who would even do that...

I also bought a dozen washers from them once to upgrade a couple of folders to Phosphor Bronze, but that's another story..
 
Sony won't supply the spring for the door on your old VCR either. Not for free. Not at a cost. You just can't get one unless you buy a used version of the same device and rape it for parts as someone mentioned above..

Sometimes this is just the way the world works. I certainly don't continue to do business with a company that behaves reprehensibly, but I don't think anyone can accuse BM of anything more than having a policy of not selling or giving away parts which are mostly proprietary designs. There are certainly patent issues involved in the avis lock and there's a possibility that by giving away or selling the parts for it, they might have a harder time defending a patent infringement position.

Benchmade makes a lot of cool knives and generally takes good care of their customers. That much is fact. If you fit into the seeming minority of BM owners or potential customers that can't live with their policies, don't buy their knives.

I'm telling you from personal experience, they want to make you happy and give you a safe knife for the money. Just give them the chance!

Can we get on to a more interesting topic?

jmx
 
Thats a very good point that BM is no different than other big knife companies as far as sending out critical parts to customers. It's interesting that they get such attention for it.

If people really want to buy Axis springs, there has to be somebody who sells them. An Omega Spring is not something that Benchmade just "made up", they are used on lots of machines and contraptions.

Some machinist's supply company or similar business has to sell omega springs that are the same or similar. It's just a matter of finding them.
 
...you're making friends all over the place :)!

I will attest to one thing: If you've got ultra-sweaty mitts like I do, the 410 stainless liners on the Axis models will require regular cleaning. I opened my trusty 705 after about 8 months of carry to find a nice bronze tone over the entire topside of both steel liners. So I don't doubt that springs could be threatened by this. The entire experience taught me that I needed to be toting a ti-handled knife for EDC.

On the other hand, BM is top-notch in both customer service and warranty repair. They even told me once that they discourage disassembly due to most people trying to turn Torx screws with a Phillips head.

Benchmade will make it right if you give them the chance. Sure, it would be sweet if they would send replacement parts other than external screws, clips, etc, but you've got to keep in mind that we as the knife elite are more likely to successfully repair knives than, say, my Uncle who wears the BM 800 I gave him with the clip inside his pocket and the knife hanging outside his pocket.

Professor.
 
I thought the springs were rusted not the liners (my bad), but it is still not good that the liners rusted (especially in the climate you describe). Maybe BM should use Titanium.
From what I have gathered from BFC, BM has a great track record of fixing knives that have had the warranty voided by the customer. Whether they realize it or not I can't say. They might see the rust and treat your knive like it had a defect (more so if one liner is rusted and the other isn't).

Baraqyal, you said the knife is no longer in your rotation. All the more reason to send it back for repair (you're not going to miss it).
Even if they charge you for repair, when you get it back, you can sell or trade it here and get something else.
 
Anyway, since I noticed a bit of a smarta$$ demeaning tone, I'll give you my response.
Click to expand...

I think I've been misunderstood.

I meant nothing demeaning. In fact, quite the opposite. I think Mr. Medic1210 has a great idea. There's no reason that someone couldn't offer after-market parts for BM (and other) knives. You could make a small business out of it. Or, perhaps someone like Texas Knifemaker's Supply could be persuaded to add a line. Of course, the question is where would you get the parts? Many of us don't have machine shops in our linen closets. But, the fact is that there are many suppliers out there capable of making such parts. Send 'em a sample and they can duplicate it. Now, they don't want to sell you one or two. There's a lot of work that goes into setting up machines and so forth. The minimum order on something like a small Omega spring may be 10,000 pieces. If they're five cents each, then you'll need to invest $500. You can sell 'em for what? five dollars each? You could make a business at that.

And where would you find such a supplier? Use the Web, of course. Right now, everyone is very hungry. Companies are taking orders that they would have turned away a few years ago.

BM makes a lot of their own parts. They actually have a machine that makes screws. They can make odd-size screws, non-standard threads, custom head shapes, etc. This frees their designers from the shackles of the McMaster-Carr catalog. But I doubt very much that BM makes the omega spring for the Axis-lock themselves. If it's a custom part made just for them, then all you have to do is figure out who BM's supplier is (and the world of omega spring suppliers isn't exactly huge) and they'll probably sell you the exact same part and probably with smaller minimum orders too since they're already tooled for it. Many of BM's parts are off-the-shelf standard parts, but not off-the-shelf at Home Depot. They come from industrial suppliers like McMaster-Carr. You can buy the same part from the same company. But, again, they're not going to sell you one or two pieces. They'll have a minimum order. On small screws, washers, etc., it may be one thousand pieces.

I think that it's a valid business idea that Mr. Medic1210 has suggested and I meant no disrespect.
 
Chuck,

That's an excellent idea.

I started looking into it a bit. Found a spring manufacturer down here in SoCal that can make wire-springs.

http://www.newcombspring.com/california.html

I'll give them a call on monday to see if its plausible, or if they can suggest someone that can make small quanitites.

Don't know if its a good idea, but they have the capability to make titanium wire springs as well.

Thanks!
-- Rob
 
How's this for an idea? It should make a lot of people happy.

Why doesn't Benchmade just make an Omega spring that doesn't friggin break in the first place? If they were heat treated properly they wouldn't have these types of problems. The fact that some break, and some don't, proves that the omega spring in the Axis lock design can be improved. Improved to the point where none of them break.

Better heat-treat, better material.
 
Originally posted by komondor
Why doesn't Benchmade just make an Omega spring that doesn't friggin break in the first place? If they were heat treated properly they wouldn't have these types of problems. The fact that some break, and some don't, proves that the omega spring in the Axis lock design can be improved. Improved to the point where none of them break.
Click to expand...

I would like very much to see a mass-produced mechanical device which never experiences failures. Springs in general especially prone to fatigue and breakage. If you make them thick enough that your failure rate is zero, then the part no longer functions as a spring.

Like everything else in engineering, springs are a primarily a matter of compromise. To place the point of that compromise so as to eliminate failures completely would drive te price much higher and quite likely compromise functionality.

Believe me, if somebody could invent an affordable wire spring which would never break they would become very wealth.
 
Originally posted by komondor
Why doesn't Benchmade just make an Omega spring that doesn't friggin break in the first place?
Click to expand...

I every one made things that wouldn't break, there would be no need for a warranty. The fact is when you produce a large quanity of knives in a factory, chances are you might have a bad one slip through. That's why you have a warranty. Just send it back to the manufacturer for a replacement. I have several Axis lock folders from Benchmade as well as Arc lock folders from SOG and none have defective springs. If any problems arise, then I would send it back to the manufacturer.
Benchmade has not gained it's popularity for nothing. Despite the fact that people gripe because their warranty is voided if you take the knife apart, Benchmade makes darn good knives. If your knife has a defect, they'll fix it.
 
Originally posted by baraqyal
Click to expand...
I have a Benchmade 710.
Me too. Several of them.

I guess I'll just keep the 710 the way it is, in my drawer. I could send it in, but since I already removed the broken spring...
I think you're taking that warrantly stuff to seriously. If you assembled your knife properly you won't have a problem.

I've sent several BM knives for blade replacement over last 2 years, not a single one was without voided warranty. Never had a probelm. I realize it's not the same as replacing the springs, but still. AFAIK as long as you managed to put the knife back properly it's not a problem.
 
Originally posted by cpirtle


Spyderco - No
SOG - Nope
Benchmade - No
Chris Reeve - No
MOD - No
Microtech - Hell no

Until you guys can show me a company that will do everything you are asking your point is invalid, sorry.
Click to expand...

When i had an Emerson CQC7a with a rattling stop pin, I dropped an email to Emerson Knives Inc, asking if they could provide me with a longer stop pin. In a week, I got a personal letter from Ernest Emerson himself. Included were stop pins in different lengths just to be somewhat sure that I could fix this matter.
 
Guys, things break because of lapses in quality control. The reason so many Omega springs break is the same reason why so many of BM's blades are not centered in the handles when closed.

There have been too many reports of broken Omega springs, so there is definitely room for improvement. Perhaps enough improvement so that incidences of broken springs are very, very rare.
 
Originally posted by komondor
Guys, things break because of lapses in quality control. The reason so many Omega springs break is the same reason why so many of BM's blades are not centered in the handles when closed.

There have been too many reports of broken Omega springs, so there is definitely room for improvement. Perhaps enough improvement so that incidences of broken springs are very, very rare.
Click to expand...

Thank you komondor! At last, someone who sees it the way I do. I almost got into a flame war with cpirtle at the SOG Forum because he misunderstood what I said. Probably partly my fault for not explaining eloquently enough. Hopefully, your explanation is much more concise.

Lifetime Warranties are great from an aftersales support BUT they are no substitutes for having reliable products from the start, making sure quality control is in place, making sure defects are monitored and worked out of the system, and improving the product.

You hit it on the nose. If there is a pattern of Omega springs breaking (and these have been reported for two years now), then Benchmade should get their suppliers to make better springs.

FTC

P.S. Now will ya come to the SOG forum, be my wingman, and back me up because I'm taking some bad hits! ;)
 
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