"Best in Show": knife judging

Hi Kevin,

What was to keep Bruce from putting a different blade into the CKCA knife and keeping that blade for something else? :D

As I wrote before I give the makers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their "heat treat".

Most (if not all) of the knives built that get entered into a custom knife competition. Subsequently, Win or lose the knives will find their way back to the maker to eventually be sold.

Whether the competition is a "beauty contest" or not....the knives will be purchased with the understanding that the heat treating was done properly and the edge will be sufficiently sharp to cut what it was intended to.
 
Hi Kevin,
What was to keep Bruce from putting a different blade into the CKCA knife and keeping that blade for something else? :D

That's was my point, at the end of the day it all boils down to Trust.
Whether I'm buying a knife from Bruce (and many other makers I could name) or judging one of his knives I totally trust that it will function/perform at a very high degree no matter how "pretty" it is.

Here's another:
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Since Ed Fowler's name has been tramped through the mud a couple times, i would like to personally thank him for his contributions to the knife community all along, encouraging people to see knives as "knives" and not merely statuary.
If you cant withhold your rebuke long enough, please give it some thought. And i admit, i am often as cynical as some of you- everyone has a perspective.

Here is Ed's thread. http://knifetalkonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=1264.0 For good or bad i wanted to see what this group had to say, and you guys have said it- with opinions, truth, and gasoline.

Hi David,

Horns? LOL :D

.....

The horns come out to eliminate those who really have nothing to contribute.


.


Not Ed.
 
Hi David,

Your agenda was not very well hidden from the start.

I was not "tramping" Ed's name through the mud....although the same can not be said of him regarding me in his column in a recent issue of Blade.

I will once again specifically ask Ed Fowler,

BTW Ed, have you ever won an award at the Blade show? If so, what methods did you use that would prove to David that your knife was 1) worthy of winning that award. 2) The heat treat was done properly 3) That you cut something to prove your knife's worthiness of winning the award. After all lack of that proof would of course just render your award winning knife...nothing but a "Beauty Queen".

David, feel free to "Channel" for Ed if he cannot answer himself. :D

I thought my question was fair given that Ed was saluting "Brownshoe".

BTW, Brownshoe hasn't answered either.

I'm just not big on "hit and run" posts in a thread.

No horns....just looking for answer(s).
 
If anyone was tramping Ed's name through the mud, I missed it - perhaps David would be so kind as to point even one of these examples.

Roger
 
There is a history here between Les and Ed. I am sorry that it has showed up here.. Both men i respect greatly.

Roger,
steven calling Ed's knives "accidental" is a backhanded insult wouldnt you agree? Les knows Ed hasnt won the award, or even submitted for it most likely.. just a way to "judge" or insult the man- or why else bring it up publicly?
David
 
Hi

I was not "tramping" Ed's name through the mud....although the same can not be said of him regarding me in his column in a recent issue of Blade.

.

Les,
i do not see that you were not named in that article, though it must be you who was referenced.
I wish you guys would bury the hatchet..
David
 
Hi David,

? Les knows Ed hasnt won the award, or even submitted for it most likely.. just a way to "judge" or insult the man- or why bring it out publicly?
David

Exactly....wrong.

I had no idea if Ed won an award at Blade or not. Which is why I was asking the question.

Given the show has been around for 25 + years...and tens of thousands of knives have been submitted for judging. Not sure of the exact number but it has to be 300 or 400 award winners...probably more.

That is not something I keep track of.

So no, it wasn't an insult to Ed. I was trying to establish if he had actually been involved in the judging competition. You have now answered the question.

Perhaps you should suggest to him he enter next year....can't win if you don't play!
 
HI David,

Les,
i do not see that you were not named in that article, though it must be you who was referenced.I wish you guys would bury the hatchet..

My only annoyance was that he said "Several Purveyors" are pushing the Market Position theory for pricing your knives.

He knows Damn well I am the one who has been pushing that for last 18 years!:D

I don't want some other "Johnny come lately purveyor" to get credit or jump on the band wagon.

If he is going to call me out...use my name. I can take the heat! :D
 
HI David,



My only annoyance was that he said "Several Purveyors" are pushing the Market Position theory for pricing your knives.

He knows Damn well I am the one who has been pushing that for last 18 years!:D

I don't want some other "Johnny come lately purveyor" to get credit or jump on the band wagon.

If he is going to call me out...use my name. I can take the heat! :D
Can you spell out your Market Position Theory?
Like a paragraph summing it up?
Or do I have to buy your little book with your proprietary matrix?

Do you mean that a person with a higher market SHARE can charge a higher price for his knives?
Or do you mean marketing positioning?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positioning_(marketing)


BTW...I don't consider calling some one a purveyor is necessarily derogatory in nature
Some people do though..I guess
Same thing with calling someone a peddler...:D
 
Hi Trent,

I never said being called a Purveyor is a bad thing. I said, I am the proponent of this pricing strategy....and want to be given credit for it. :D

I suspect if you use the search function you will be able to read about my market position theory with regards to pricing.

I've been talking about on forums for at least 5 years.

No secrets...did the matrix during Grad School.

The concept and matrix are the easy part. Actually taking the time to do it...seems to be the hard part.
 
Roger,
steven calling Ed's knives "accidental" is a backhanded insult wouldnt you agree? Les knows Ed hasnt won the award, or even submitted for it most likely.. just a way to "judge" or insult the man- or why else bring it up publicly?
David

Les has answered - conclusively, in my view - your claim that he insulted Ed.

As for STeven, I fail to see his post - when viewed in context - as an insult to Ed:

3. "Best" anything is subjective. There are those comfortable with the criteria and those not. When Ed Fowler makes a knife that appeals aesthetically to the masses, it is often an accident, so he probably wouldn't win too many beauty contests. For those that purchase a knife meant for use, Ed's work could maybe be the most beautiful of all.

Given Ed's repeated claims of putting function before form, I don't see how saying that mass aesthetic appeal of his knives of often accidental is an insult - after all Ed doesn't claim to be making knives that everyone will think are pretty.

More importantly, saying that those who purchase his knives for use will consider them "the most beautiful of all" sounds rather like a compliment, no? Particularly for a maker who bangs the performance drum louder than most? Perhaps removing the chip from your shoulder will result in your obtaining a more balanced view.

Roger
 
Roger,
you may be correct- reading it again.. I may have misinterpreted.
Apologies to all.
David
 
Hi Dave,

I know you are a big fan of Ed and his knives. Nothing wrong with that.

I know Ed is all about the performance. However, given the cost of his knives I don't know how many of them actually are given a chance to perform.

All of us, including myself can become myopic when we think friends or our favorite makers are being unduly picked on.

When you started this thread there was already a little bit of contentiousness built into it.

Obviously the knives that win the awards would not be tested for either their heat treat or their performance abilities...or lack there of.

I didn't know if Ed had ever won an award at the Blade show. It would not have surprised me if he did. Which is why I asked the questions.

Ed obviously has a lot of knowledge with regards to forging blades and the performance aspects of said blades. Brownshoe should change his screen name to Browneyes.

Forumites are trying to get the best information they can from this and other forums. Which is why these threads should have full disclosure...to include real names (which you and Ed, and Kevin, and Roger, and STeven, et al) have given.

I truly believe that if you know who you are talking too and what their real back ground is. It will add to the conversation.

So too sum up: Are custom knife competitions (that are judged) "Beauty Contests? Maybe.

Can you realistically expect these knives to be put through a performance test? No.

Is there a place to test the performance levels of the knives? Yes. Every Blade Show they have the World Cutting Competition.

I would recommend to you that Ed should compete in that contest. That way he could test his theories and ideas of performance against other like minded knife makers.

You don't owe me an apology. You spoke your mind and defended your points very well.
 
Roger,
you may be correct- reading it again.. I may have misinterpreted.
Apologies to all.
David

David,

I'd like you to understand......the ONLY reason, and I mean only, that I don't own an Ed Fowler knife is brass and sheephorn....Ed likes 'em, I don't.

Got a Bill Burke that is as close a Pronghorn as you could care for in desert ironwood and nickel silver, and I love it.

Might just be a beauty contest at the buyer level, huh?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Les, My only respons to you is to quote your comment about those who disagree with your universally recognized expertice "4th Point Of Contact". This makes intellgient discourse with you like wrestling with a greased pig...
 
HI Brownshoe,

So basically more BS from you. Still waiting for your "judging" credentials.

We both know you have none. My comments are not for you...but only for those who would possibly give your comments credence.

As for the greased pig....remember everyone gets dirty but the pig loves it!
 
Since there is so much interest in how awards are won, I thought I would describe how I go about the process for coming up with an entry. Since I have only entered the TACTICAL FOLDER category, some of my comments may not apply to other categories.

First, I try to define the attributes that the "best" knife should have. I start with functionality. This ultimately drives a whole bunch of parameters for the knife, to include:
Blade steel, heat treat, edge thickness, blade finish, handle material, texture, etc.

Second, I factor in the general likes and dislikes of my customers, and the judges, when I know their preferences. This can drive me towards certain features, materials, etc, and away from others

Third, I eliminate everything from the knife design that does not provide a positive benefit to the knife. This is particularly important in my category, and includes everything from shiny surfaces to materials like mokume and damascus steel.

Fourth, I try to add everything to the knife that does provide a positive benefit. This includes things that will impress the judges and make the knife stand out. A flipper instead of a manual opener- more complicated knife. Bearings instead of washers-Technically, more challenging to build. Inlays instead of overlays-Sexier and stronger. Ergonomics, gimping, chamfers. You get the idea.

Fifth, I try to come up with a design that showcases all of the above, at least to my eye and my way of thinking. The design has to be a reflection of ME, easily identifiable as an RJ Martin design. This is the hardest part.

Lastly, I build the knife, paying particular attention to.....Everything. It is the most stressful, painstaking build of the entire year. There is a ton of doubt that creeps in during the process, often some changes that are required, and generally several nagging choices that remain questionable up until the judging. Last year's knife, for example, the DRT was fine until I decided 3 days before the show (the same day I finished it) that it was too heavy, based on a comment I heard from the judges about a knife that came in second place the year before. So I went back and took an ounce of weight out of the frames, a 25% reduction. Talk about stress!

The process I outlined above generally takes me about 9 months to complete.

The funny thing about all these competition knives is, they take a tremendous amount of time and effort to build, and, ultimately I'm not convinced just how much they help the maker. Winning an award does not result in crowds of customers at your table waving fist-fulls of money. The publicity and name recognition is definitely helpful, but, award winners or not, all the makers who enter are probably full-up with orders anyway.

And, as I have found out, the awards themselves are polarizing. Which is both unfortunate and inevitable.
 
As you can see from the above post, it's not a fluke someone like RJ wins awards. Any one that puts that much thought, time, and effort into designs, materials, and construction, wins before the competition begins.

Schuyler
 
RJ, it's very pleasing to hear that some makers actually put a lot of thought and effort into their show competition entries as I expect Les is right in that some makers just grab a knife (or more) off their table with little or no thought/effort. Thanks for sharing your process with us.

Last year's knife, for example, the DRT was fine until I decided 3 days before the show (the same day I finished it) that it was too heavy, based on a comment I heard from the judges about a knife that came in second place the year before. So I went back and took an ounce of weight out of the frames, a 25% reduction. Talk about stress!

^ I'm curious, how was it that you only heard about the judges previous year's comments (too heavy) 3 days before the show and how did you finally hear about it? Would have sure been helpful to have gotten that information before you finished your entry.

I agree with you in that winning (though nice) seems to have less and less benefit and/or prestige for the makers. Probably due to the growing number of shows, thus the growing number of show competitions and the number of categories (or winners) in the competitions. Kind of makes one wonder that if only having a single all encompassing "best of show" or at least only 4-5 categories (rather than 10-15) would be better for all.
 
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