"Best in Show": knife judging

Buffalohump said:
Silly me, I keep forgetting that there are quite a few people who buy knives as pretties to hang on a wall and not because they need them to cut stuff. :o
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Is there some reason that you should regard such people with scorn? I use a number of my custom knives. But I have no need to use them all. If I bought knives ONLY for the purpose of "needing to cut stuff", I'd have maybe half a dozen - at most - for life. Not real good for the custom knife market, I shouldn't think.

Roger
 
I'm not really thinking about what's good for the custom market to be honest. I've always tried to buy the best knife I can afford in each category that will hopefully see some use. I dont use them as much as I like to, but I try to carry and use them all. I don't conceal the fact that my personal preference is for knives that were made to be used, made with a purpose in other words. Not just as ornaments. I can't move away from the fact that these are tools above all else. Nothing wrong with a little embellishment, so long as it doesn't get in the way of the function. It was one of the reasons I was so pleased to see the pic of Jerry Fisk's personal cutter from NYCKS. It was a magnificent piece, even dirtied up with use. I don't think the fact that it was used detracted from its worth one iota. In fact I believe it added to it!

RogerP said:
Is there some reason that you should regard such people with scorn? I use a number of my custom knives. But I have no need to use them all. If I bought knives ONLY for the purpose of "needing to cut stuff", I'd have maybe half a dozen - at most - for life. Not real good for the custom knife market, I shouldn't think.

Roger
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Hey Les,

I find that hard to believe. Surely the fact that it was Jerry's personal knife would enhance its value? I hear that Michael Jackson's glove just sold for $300,000. The fact that it was used didnt seem to deter those buyers! :D

Les Robertson said:
Hi Buffalo,



The after market would beg to differ with you.
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Yea I love the whole "personal knife thing". LOL

You buy someone's personal knife...they make another...sell that one...they make another....sell that one....they make another....they sell that one....they make another.....well you get the idea.

The market for any maker (among their collectors) is 100%

Anything you do to modify the knife starts to eat into the 100%.

A personal knife (used)...would probably appeal to 20% of the collectors.

Once you step out of that makers hard core group of collectors and enter into the totality of the market. Your "used" knife will find a lot less desirability among all custom knife buyers.
 
Buffalohump said:
I'm not really thinking about what's good for the custom market to be honest. I've always tried to buy the best knife I can afford in each category that will hopefully see some use. I dont use them as much as I like to, but I try to carry and use them all. I don't conceal the fact that my personal preference is for knives that were made to be used, made with a purpose in other words. Not just as ornaments. !
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Your personal preferences aside, as I mentioned before, if you spent days perfecting that 2000 grit finish and someone suggested cardboard as a test medium BEFORE the knife was sold.....you might be less than pleased, you might even question that person's sanity or their understanding of what goes into that perfect hand-rubbed satin finish.

I would submit, that for the most part, you are talking out of your hat....ie, your preferences, while reasonable to YOU, would be inline with a POST-purchase scenario.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Well, I have often seen a maker comment after he's made a particularly nice knife that he wishes he could keep it for himself. I figure even the most professional makers would sprinkle a little extra magic when they make a knife for their own personal use.

I must be thinking of something like book collecting, where a First Edition signed by an author is worth considerably more than just a regular First Edition. As for a First Edition that was actually owned by the author and perhaps has his notes in the margin.... well, you get the idea. ;)
 
Hey Buffalo:

Silly me, I keep forgetting that there are quite a few people who buy knives as pretties to hang on a wall and not because they need them to cut stuff.
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Yes you are "silly". :D

What you missing is the fact that if people only bought custom knives to be used as "tools". The custom market as you know it would not exist.

Until you lose it...how many screwdrivers do you need to buy...or how many hammers?

The makers who create the design elements, locks, incorporate different artisan skills, etc. Are the same ones who can command a higher price for their knives. Thus allowing the next several layers of makers to either enter the market (as it is now profitable to do so) or continue to raise their prices so they too can now afford to put more money into their business.

The money trickles down.

Look at what has happened with the factories over the last 10 years. Without adding the custom knife makers design to their line ups. Their knives would not be commanding the prices they are.

So yes, a certain number of "wall hangers" have to be built.
 
Well, I was under the impression these test knives were created specifically for the purpose of the competition, not necessarily as a money-making venture. I would imagine that any knife that can assist one to win such a prestigious award would have more than earned its keep, even if its value was somehow reduced by having cut some cardboard and thereby proven its worth to the judges. I was also under the impression that the pristine surface of a blade could be fairly easily restored to its former glory by any maker worth his salt.

Kohai999 said:
Your personal preferences aside, as I mentioned before, if you spent days perfecting that 2000 grit finish and someone suggested cardboard as a test medium BEFORE the knife was sold.....you might be less than pleased, you might even question that person's sanity or their understanding of what goes into that perfect hand-rubbed satin finish.

I would submit, that for the most part, you are talking out of your hat....ie, your preferences, while reasonable to YOU, would be inline with a POST-purchase scenario.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Buffalohump said:
I must be thinking of something like book collecting, where a First Edition signed by an author is worth considerably more than just a regular First Edition. As for a First Edition that was actually owned by the author and perhaps has his notes in the margin.... well, you get the idea. ;)
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You are demonstrating, sadly, a complete lack of understanding about primary and secondary market dynamics vis-a-vis custom/handmade knife collecting.

Buffalohump said:
Well, I was under the impression these test knives were created specifically for the purpose of the competition, not necessarily as a money-making venture. I would imagine that any knife that can assist one to win such a prestigious award would have more than earned its keep, even if its value was somehow reduced by having cut some cardboard and thereby proven its worth to the judges. I was also under the impression that the pristine surface of a blade could be fairly easily restored to its former glory by any maker worth his salt.
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1. Competition cutting knives are not highly finished, and are made for just that.....knives entered into "Best of" competitions are made to be SOLD.

2. High finish satin blades are NOT fairly easily restored.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Hey Buffalo,

I was also under the impression that the pristine surface of a blade could be fairly easily restored to its former glory by any maker worth his salt.
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So the maker enters the competition with a knife he is going to deliver to you after the judging.

Maybe the judges determine the top 3 knives in each category should be tested by cutting cardboard.

Now your 2000 grit finished blade has numerous lines it.

The good news is that maker can fix it.

The bad news:

1) Your knife didn't win the award

2) The maker is worth his salt! The problem is it will take several hours to get the blade back to its original finish. Consequently, you will have to pay an extra $200 for the time it will take to finish the knife back to it's original finish (before cutting the card board).

3) The knife will then have to ship it to you in SA...and you will have to pay for that as well.

So the knife was entered. It did not win the award. It will now cost you more and you will have to wait several weeks (or longer) to get the knife.

Given this scenario, how many collector do you think now what their knife entered into any competition?

Not fearing the knife will not win. Not fearing that the knife will not cut satisfactorily.

Nope, they have been waiting for that knife for possibly years....and don't want to take the chance that they will not only have to wait longer...but pay more money for the knife.

I'll be looking for the Rules Changes for the Custom Knife Judging at the Blade Show in 2011. :D
 
Buffalo, without trying to belittle you or your point, I would just say that as interesting as it would be, a testing process that had any teeth would be extremely impractical if not impossible to implement without the wheels coming off the entire show competition.

Regarding the Fisk cutter, as I've stated in several threads it's an absolute cutting machine. What's interesting is that if Jerry had made that into a wall hanger by laying down a perfect hand rubbed finish, engraving, gold inlay, checkering the handle it would still cut every bit as well. Though I would have hard time making everyone believe it.

Jerry makes one personal cutter every year and even though he doesn't particularly make it to sell but rather to quench his thirst to improve upon on it every year and for demonstrations, they are VERY marketable. In fact he could sell any one of them in five minutes after he completed and tested if he chose. However, he elects to hold on to them for those of us who attend his mini-show to see and USE one of the finest cutting knives in the world.
 
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Quite likely, not being much of a collector myself. But I thought this thread was about judging the quality of a knife not about determining its value on the aftermarket. I thought that having a particular knife prove itself in every way possible would enhance the entire knifemaker's brand, far beyond that one particular knife that may have lost some value by being tested. I guess I was wrong

Kohai999 said:
You are demonstrating, sadly, a complete lack of understanding about primary and secondary market dynamics vis-a-vis custom/handmade knife collecting.


1. Competition cutting knives are not highly finished, and are made for just that.....knives entered into "Best of" competitions are made to be SOLD.

2. High finish satin blades are NOT fairly easily restored.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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My mistake, I didnt mean a competition cutting knife. I meant a knife that is entered into a competition, for the express purpose of winning that competition. That is, with no thought as to whether it would be sold afterwards or not.
 
On occasions I like to purchase daggers although I have yet to run into a situation where I felt the need to use one.

I consider them one of the hardest styles to make. I do not plan on using any of them, but I like supporting the makers when I am able who push themselves each time they make a knife and also feel no well rounded collection is complete if it is lacking a well made dagger.
 
Hey Les,

I wont be holding my breath either! :D

This thread reminds me of an incident that occurred at a local knife show held every year in my home town over the Easter weekend. One knife maker had a display of swords that were for sale. One of the punters asked some questions as to the merit of the swords as users, ie, were they strong enough, etc etc. The maker, feeling his workmanship was under scrutiny, proceeded to use one of the swords to dismember the chair he was sitting on. And the sword perfomed the task admirably and was still in almost perfect nick afterwards. Now I cant recall if he sold that sword to the punter or not, but I have a feeling that he definitely made his point as to whether his work was good only for hanging on the wall.

Les Robertson said:
Hey Buffalo,
I'll be looking for the Rules Changes for the Custom Knife Judging at the Blade Show in 2011. :D
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"If you spent days perfecting that 2000 grit finish..." and it wins "Best Hunter", the contest is not that a beauty contest? For knives meant more to be displayed not used, how often do they win at contests in categories that appear to be "tools" (e.g. Hunter, Tactical)?

Does anyone see a difference in the judging between "Best Bowie" at Blade or at other shows not run by makers compared to shows run by makers such the Arkansas Knifemaker or ABS shows?
 
Brownshoe,

Does anyone see a difference in the judging between "Best Bowie" at Blade or Spirit of Steel compared to "Best Bowie" at the Arkansas Knifemaker or ABS shows?
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I have judged at The Blade Show, The SOS Show and The Arkansas Custom Knife Show. So I feel qualified to answer this question.

The answer is No.

"If you spent days perfecting that 2000 grit finish..." and it wins "Best Hunter", the contest is not that a beauty contest? For knives meant more to be displayed not used, how often do they win at contests in categories that appear to be "tools" (e.g. Hunter, Tactical)?
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How was this addressed at the shows you were a judge at?
 
For the fellas really hung up on a hunter winning a beauty contest... how do you suggest it be tested to win? You may have a hard time getting Blade to bring in a truck load of dead deer and elk to test them out. No??? ;) :)

I mean, afterall, that's the true test of a hunting knife. Not cardboard.

I agree 100% that a custom knife should excel in its intended purpose. A hunter that looks pretty but can't cut is pointless. But that testing is not within the parameters of judging at a show.

Why don't some of you guys rally together and set up a program that will draw in makers to have knives tested (at a show) how YOU feel they need to be tested to be deemed THE BEST ????? :) And I mean testing that differs from the current, big knife cutting comps.

And I'm not saying that to be a smart ass. It would be quite a hurdle to make it happen, but if you focus your energy on making that happen, rather than just expressing your distaste for the current testing on this forum....you could probably make some serious headway! :) :thumbup:
 
I get the feeling that this thread could go on forever.:D

The first problem being that so many people have different views on what knives are all about.

Some collect, some use, some don't, some sell, some make, some invest, some do all.

The second is the vast amount of styles.

Swords, fighters, bowies, daggers, hunters, folders, tacticals, art knives, miniatures, etc.

To my mind, given this array of variables, the categories that are in place make perfect sense.

As for performance testing, I'd say that it's pretty obvious that a lot of high end knives aren't actually made with cutting in mind (not that I'm suggesting they couldn't if they had to:)). After all, who in their right mind would want to go out and use a Loerchner dagger? It's a work of art, not a user!

Mr Robertson mentioned earlier a $45,000 folder...clearly not the sort of knife to carry about as your 'EDC'.:eek:

Sorry for rambling on...just thought I'd have my two penneth.;):D

Ian
 
irbailey said:
As for performance testing, I'd say that it's pretty obvious that a lot of high end knives aren't actually made with cutting in mind (not that I'm suggesting they couldn't if they had to:)). After all, who in their right mind would want to go out and use a Loerchner dagger? It's a work of art, not a user!
Ian
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I'd say it's pretty obvious that a lot of high end knives are actually made specifically with cutting in mind, even if the maker suspects that they will probably never be used for cutting. Loveless knives would be one example. ;)
 
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