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"Best in Show": knife judging
- Thread starter 2knife
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I guess this is the bit what got under my skin a bit, Roger. Felt a little condescending. I had a terrible sleep last night and I'm a bit grumpy, so please bear with me.
I really do enjoy reading most of what you put out there, and attribute many of my 'non-newbish' views partially to your output, both here and in the mags.
And while I appreciate your saying I'm no newb, we both know that is not true. 5 years of forum participation and purchasing a couple of dozen custom knives does not an expert make. But I'm learning and thank you for saying you've noticed.
Les, I guess I took your implication the wrong way. Sure felt like you were calling me a dumb ass, but maybe I just need another cup of coffee.
I understand the concept behind the questions I'd asked, so analogies in the bike world or elsewhere are not specifically helpful. How about examples in the knife world? Stories about how winning has either helped or hindered? What specifically has this competition brought to the knife world?
That would be helpful. I love history, I think it has a lot to teach us, and someone as old as you should have a huge treasure trove of information
D).
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Lorien,
You are really reading into my comment an intent that wasn't there. I really didn't understand why you were baffled by the purpose of a best of show award, but not so by a winner being declared in specific categories.
My comment was nothing more than a face value representation of my inability to understand your confusion on this point, and if anything, an invitation for you to explain further.
Roger
Les Robertson
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Hi Kevin,
No reason to wait, here you go. Generally speaking.
Bowies:
Blade lengths 8 1/2 to 12"
Blade Width's 1 1/2" to 2"
Fighters
Blade Lengths: 6" to 7 1/2"
Blade Widths: 1" to 1 1/2"
Now, makers will make smaller bowies....that is nothing more than a full size bowie reduced by 25 to 50%.
Some even call them "Gamblers Bowies' or "Vest Pocket" bowies.
When you take a fighter and reduce it by the same 25% to 50% they now call that knife either a boot knife or a neck knife.
Now, you can try and shove a bowie into a fighter category or fighter into a Bowie category.
Kind of like the makers who bring a "Hunter" with a 8 to 12" blade and submit it in the category and don't win. They are then "STUNNED" STUNNED I tell you that they didn't win.
Bowies were more a tool (as are all knives) that was generally carried on their belt.
As we became more civilized and knives could not be openly carried...they became smaller (hence the gamblers and vest pocket bowies).
Fighters evolved from knives carried by soldiers (often times bayonets that were shortened for easier carry). Prior to the 60's they were called "combat" knives. I suspect "fighter" was coined by some politician who was looking to get certain knives made illegal. Kind of like the outcry against those cheap piece of crap auto's in the 1950's.
The term "Fighter" is a misnomer. As anyone who has ever been in a fight involving a knife knows...a fighting knife is the knife in your hand when the fight starts. Yes, when I was in college I was in a fight when the other person pulled out a knife. It was one of those cheap Autos. Had I known then what I known now I would have just laughed at him. As well I had a shoplifter pull a knife on me when I was a security guard at a mall (also in college). Wasn't really a fight. I think he was doing all he could to keep from pissing his pants. LOL
Same goes for Survival Knife! A Survival knife is the knife you have with you when you are put into a survival situation. That could be a Bowie or a Fighter...of course then they become a Survival knife!
Categories/definitions are never perfect.
Hope you are around in a few weeks when the Blade Forum Best "_*Bowie*_" Contest begins and we are questioning whether the entries are "bowies" or "fighters"? It will be great to finally have someone to step in and make the un-disputed distinction.
No reason to wait, here you go. Generally speaking.
Bowies:
Blade lengths 8 1/2 to 12"
Blade Width's 1 1/2" to 2"
Fighters
Blade Lengths: 6" to 7 1/2"
Blade Widths: 1" to 1 1/2"
Now, makers will make smaller bowies....that is nothing more than a full size bowie reduced by 25 to 50%.
Some even call them "Gamblers Bowies' or "Vest Pocket" bowies.
When you take a fighter and reduce it by the same 25% to 50% they now call that knife either a boot knife or a neck knife.
Now, you can try and shove a bowie into a fighter category or fighter into a Bowie category.
Kind of like the makers who bring a "Hunter" with a 8 to 12" blade and submit it in the category and don't win. They are then "STUNNED" STUNNED I tell you that they didn't win.
Bowies were more a tool (as are all knives) that was generally carried on their belt.
As we became more civilized and knives could not be openly carried...they became smaller (hence the gamblers and vest pocket bowies).
Fighters evolved from knives carried by soldiers (often times bayonets that were shortened for easier carry). Prior to the 60's they were called "combat" knives. I suspect "fighter" was coined by some politician who was looking to get certain knives made illegal. Kind of like the outcry against those cheap piece of crap auto's in the 1950's.
The term "Fighter" is a misnomer. As anyone who has ever been in a fight involving a knife knows...a fighting knife is the knife in your hand when the fight starts. Yes, when I was in college I was in a fight when the other person pulled out a knife. It was one of those cheap Autos. Had I known then what I known now I would have just laughed at him. As well I had a shoplifter pull a knife on me when I was a security guard at a mall (also in college). Wasn't really a fight. I think he was doing all he could to keep from pissing his pants. LOL
Same goes for Survival Knife! A Survival knife is the knife you have with you when you are put into a survival situation. That could be a Bowie or a Fighter...of course then they become a Survival knife!
Categories/definitions are never perfect.
Les Robertson
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Hi Roger,
Left out Camp Knife:
Camp Knife...bowie with a single or no guard! Generally Forged.
Or that no man's land 4 1/2" to 6" blade. Almost too big for a hunter but too small for a Fighter or Bowie. Generally Stock Removal.
Left out Camp Knife:
Camp Knife...bowie with a single or no guard!
Generally Forged.Or that no man's land 4 1/2" to 6" blade. Almost too big for a hunter but too small for a Fighter or Bowie. Generally Stock Removal.
Kohai999
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^ I just believe simplicity could result in efficiency allowing most accurate judging and more prestigious/beneficial awards.
Then perhaps only these five winners (or whatever the reduced categories would ultimately be) would be judged to determine a "Best of Show".
Just a thought as opposed to having 16 categories.
I truly agree with you from a collector/business man perspective....
However....there are makers that only make, miniatures/swords/tactical folders/art knives.....
To take a miniature and put it in the "best folder/fixed blade" category automatically makes it more difficult for the miniature to win, although I have seen it happen at the OKCA show....so we unecessarily penalize makers in niche categories because they make knives that don't cleanly fall into a smaller amount of categories....I don't think that is right, and don't think it is fair.
Best damascus/giraffe bone? That could be a category at some shows created by the seller of these materials, promoting these materials. Should a show promoter say to these dealers "we don't want your business?". I think that would be a bad business move, even though I abhor giraffe bone.
I agree that discussion is good, but I think over simplifying categories for judging at shows is bad for the whole community.
If you only had one category(best of show) it would really, really make it hard for tactical knives to compete with art knives, just for example.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Les Robertson
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Hi Lorien.
Competition in theory always brings out the best in the competitors or should.
On the factory side of the Blade Show awards. The factories often wait to unveil their newest, lock, blade steel, handle material, etc. Latest and greatest if you will. Thus raising the bar for the entire industry.
On the custom side. More times than not it is those makers who are utilizing innovations that change the industry.
Today how many tactical folders do you see entered into competitions with lock backs? The answer; NONE! Why, because they take tow hands to open and close the knife.
RJ (and Larry Chew) have been using Roller Thrust Bearings for years. Now the IKBS system is on most of the tactical folders entered into the competition(s). Also is there another category of knives that has done more for the advancement of steels being used in the industry?
Best Damascus Category....this has gone from Random pattern (usually with some super high number like 100,000 layers, to Ladder pattern to Rain drop pattern to the mosaics we see in the steel today.
With both the Tactical knives and Damascus these innovations have taken place in part because the makers utilizing these innovations were winning the awards.
Guys like RJ who are constantly raising the bar...technically...not through hype. Influence the market.
This may be the best example of how much awards from shows can influence the custom knife market.
Bob Neal and I were not allowed to judge at the same time during at the Blade Show. The reason, they felt that if we chose to we could unduly influence the custom knife market (to our benefit).
My response to Steve was...."You give us way too much credit". LOL
The makers who win awards will almost without exception pick up orders (at least short term). Depending on how they utilize the award potential, they can raise their Market Position. Creating a higher demand for their work and ultimately get more money for their knives.
So yes, to those who compete and win..the benefits can be huge.
Competition in theory always brings out the best in the competitors or should.
On the factory side of the Blade Show awards. The factories often wait to unveil their newest, lock, blade steel, handle material, etc. Latest and greatest if you will. Thus raising the bar for the entire industry.
On the custom side. More times than not it is those makers who are utilizing innovations that change the industry.
Today how many tactical folders do you see entered into competitions with lock backs? The answer; NONE! Why, because they take tow hands to open and close the knife.
RJ (and Larry Chew) have been using Roller Thrust Bearings for years. Now the IKBS system is on most of the tactical folders entered into the competition(s). Also is there another category of knives that has done more for the advancement of steels being used in the industry?
Best Damascus Category....this has gone from Random pattern (usually with some super high number like 100,000 layers, to Ladder pattern to Rain drop pattern to the mosaics we see in the steel today.
With both the Tactical knives and Damascus these innovations have taken place in part because the makers utilizing these innovations were winning the awards.
Guys like RJ who are constantly raising the bar...technically...not through hype. Influence the market.
This may be the best example of how much awards from shows can influence the custom knife market.
Bob Neal and I were not allowed to judge at the same time during at the Blade Show. The reason, they felt that if we chose to we could unduly influence the custom knife market (to our benefit).
My response to Steve was...."You give us way too much credit". LOL
The makers who win awards will almost without exception pick up orders (at least short term). Depending on how they utilize the award potential, they can raise their Market Position. Creating a higher demand for their work and ultimately get more money for their knives.
So yes, to those who compete and win..the benefits can be huge.
Les Robertson
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Hi Steven,
The Arkansas Custom Knife Show has a specific award for the best custom knife with a Giraffe bone handle. It is sponsored by a company that sells...yep you guessed it...Giraffe bone. Smart move on the company's part.
Actually, Im surprised that more companies don't do that....Imagine if you offered a $100 prize, plaque and some free giraffe bone (or whatever the material being sold by the company be).
Money, plaque and free material....now your talking!
The Arkansas Custom Knife Show has a specific award for the best custom knife with a Giraffe bone handle. It is sponsored by a company that sells...yep you guessed it...Giraffe bone. Smart move on the company's part.
Actually, Im surprised that more companies don't do that....Imagine if you offered a $100 prize, plaque and some free giraffe bone (or whatever the material being sold by the company be).
Money, plaque and free material....now your talking!
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Roger, I'm neither baffled nor confused. Just hoping to get some insights from other people who have an interest in sharing them, particularly people with history and experience. And the insights are now coming, so I'm glad I asked!
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This thread, like so many forum threads, has a plethora of great information and still-varied viewpoints. Multidirectional niches in making knives is also present in opinions.
He he he! I happen to like the volleying back and forth. It makes people think harder. Les, you have your thinking cap on good and tight. I appreciate it. Good stuff.
Poor brownshoe wears a shirt that seems to say 'kick me'. His contentious posts make me smile in anticipation of the tirades, although there is always a nugget of truth in there. I say some people use exxageration to make a point, and he's well on one side of that scale. It's a counterbalance to the other side as well.
Kumbaya!
Coop
He he he! I happen to like the volleying back and forth. It makes people think harder. Les, you have your thinking cap on good and tight. I appreciate it. Good stuff.
Poor brownshoe wears a shirt that seems to say 'kick me'. His contentious posts make me smile in anticipation of the tirades, although there is always a nugget of truth in there. I say some people use exxageration to make a point, and he's well on one side of that scale. It's a counterbalance to the other side as well.
Kumbaya!
Coop
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As I'm not likely to be entering any knives for judging at Blade I see no reason to contact Steve. I was more responding to RJ's comments/concerns (below) regarding an awards lack of benefit to maker's who win them.
I think it's a fairly logical assumption (even though Roger disagreed; surprise-surprise
) that winning an award where only 5-6 are presented is probably more prestigious, beneficial to the winning maker and/or perhaps noteworthy to the pubic than winning an award where 15-20 are presented. In addition, I'm not interested in changing rules or affecting the judging processes, as when I'm asked to judge (which is the only dog I have in this fight) I'm completely happy with doing the best job I'm capable of in utilizing the rules and processes that are currently in place.
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I think that right there says it all, as far as why to have a best of.Thanks for saying it RJ..and more so...thanks for doing it.
I did not mean to say that winning awards is not helpful to a maker-And I didn't.
To elaborate, knife-makers who enter a judged competition (in any category) and don't win, do not lose their customers to the makers who win. Nor do makers that win suddenly corner the market. The better makers in any category have so much backlog/demand that it doesn't really matter, IMO.
My dealers and customers aren't going to stop buying my knives if I don't win the award. Conversely, having won a few awards, I have to have my act together on every knife I make, because now I am held to a higher standard. If I send out a "less than excellent" knife to someone who bought the knife because of my winning the awards, they will be really upset because their expectations for my work are higher!!!!!!
This is an un-intended consequence of winning. And no, I'm not complaining about it! But I am damn glad that I didn't double all my prices the first time I won, because that would have compounded the problem. Better to be low-key about it. If I start making bad knives, everyone will stop buying them. That is a fact.
To elaborate, knife-makers who enter a judged competition (in any category) and don't win, do not lose their customers to the makers who win. Nor do makers that win suddenly corner the market. The better makers in any category have so much backlog/demand that it doesn't really matter, IMO.
My dealers and customers aren't going to stop buying my knives if I don't win the award. Conversely, having won a few awards, I have to have my act together on every knife I make, because now I am held to a higher standard. If I send out a "less than excellent" knife to someone who bought the knife because of my winning the awards, they will be really upset because their expectations for my work are higher!!!!!!
This is an un-intended consequence of winning. And no, I'm not complaining about it! But I am damn glad that I didn't double all my prices the first time I won, because that would have compounded the problem. Better to be low-key about it. If I start making bad knives, everyone will stop buying them. That is a fact.
Les Robertson
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Kevin,
You are better than that. Don't do the Brownshoe "hit and run". If you have suggestions...contact Steve. If not, don't post your "musings" about the award system here.
As Bruce spoke of earlier, to a large degree custom knives are ego driven. Like Bruce, I have a healthy ego so I feel I can speak to that.
However, it is that same ego that makes someone think they can make a knife that someone will buy. That someone is willing to wait for (sometimes for years) that may win an award....that these knives may allow me to do this for a living.
Couple that with each knife that comes out of the shop has the makers name/logo/forge name on it. So yes, to a large extent when you "judge" the knife many makers feel you are "judging" them.
Personally, I have never understood that...the knife is not the man and visa versa.
I would disagree with RJ in that winning the past 4 Tactical Folder awards has brought him a degree of recognition that he might not have achieved or would have taken a lot longer to achieve.
The R&D he puts into the knives he makes to enter the competition at Blade. Gives him both a goal and a definitive end date for completion (something that seems to be elusive for so many custom knife makers).
These awards have brought him additional recognition in the issue of Blade (2 months after the Blade Show) for each of the last 4 years. How many makers of any type of knife can say that. How many makers have never made it into a magazine...for any reason.
RJ stopped taking orders when he got 2 years behind. He as rabid fans waiting for his next knife...whatever that is. And consistently sells out at every show he attends....although at times not as quick as he would like.
Further he accomplished this without the help of becoming the "flavor of the month".
While he may not see it, I can tell you that as someone whose only complaint about RJ is that I don't get enough knives (and he sells me plenty)
This issue reminds of the knife makers who blame the show promoter for their slow or lack of sales at a show.
What did the maker do to bring their customers or potential customers to the show?
The same applies to the marketing of the maker and/or the knife after winning an award. Do you have Coop photograph the award, put that picture on your site (along with the award), do you let your clients know that you are now an award winning maker? Do you follow up the Re-Cap of the Blade Show issue of Blade with advertising (using your Coop photo) in the ad?
If not, why not?
The question isn't can an award bring you additional sales, etc. The questions are how are you utilizing winning this award into your marketing scheme? How are you utilizing this award to improve your position in this market. What are you doing to show the custom knife world that you (at least for that day) were in elite company!
You are better than that. Don't do the Brownshoe "hit and run". If you have suggestions...contact Steve. If not, don't post your "musings" about the award system here.
As Bruce spoke of earlier, to a large degree custom knives are ego driven. Like Bruce, I have a healthy ego so I feel I can speak to that.
However, it is that same ego that makes someone think they can make a knife that someone will buy. That someone is willing to wait for (sometimes for years) that may win an award....that these knives may allow me to do this for a living.
Couple that with each knife that comes out of the shop has the makers name/logo/forge name on it. So yes, to a large extent when you "judge" the knife many makers feel you are "judging" them.
Personally, I have never understood that...the knife is not the man and visa versa.
I would disagree with RJ in that winning the past 4 Tactical Folder awards has brought him a degree of recognition that he might not have achieved or would have taken a lot longer to achieve.
The R&D he puts into the knives he makes to enter the competition at Blade. Gives him both a goal and a definitive end date for completion (something that seems to be elusive for so many custom knife makers).
These awards have brought him additional recognition in the issue of Blade (2 months after the Blade Show) for each of the last 4 years. How many makers of any type of knife can say that. How many makers have never made it into a magazine...for any reason.
RJ stopped taking orders when he got 2 years behind. He as rabid fans waiting for his next knife...whatever that is. And consistently sells out at every show he attends....although at times not as quick as he would like.
Further he accomplished this without the help of becoming the "flavor of the month".
While he may not see it, I can tell you that as someone whose only complaint about RJ is that I don't get enough knives (and he sells me plenty)
This issue reminds of the knife makers who blame the show promoter for their slow or lack of sales at a show.
What did the maker do to bring their customers or potential customers to the show?
The same applies to the marketing of the maker and/or the knife after winning an award. Do you have Coop photograph the award, put that picture on your site (along with the award), do you let your clients know that you are now an award winning maker? Do you follow up the Re-Cap of the Blade Show issue of Blade with advertising (using your Coop photo) in the ad?
If not, why not?
The question isn't can an award bring you additional sales, etc. The questions are how are you utilizing winning this award into your marketing scheme? How are you utilizing this award to improve your position in this market. What are you doing to show the custom knife world that you (at least for that day) were in elite company!
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I did not mean to say that winning awards is not helpful to a maker-And I didn't.
No you didn't, nor did I state you did. I stated you commented and had concerns regarding reward benefit.
sheathmaker
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"Couple that with each knife that comes out of the shop has the makers name/logo/forge name on it. So yes, to a large extent when you "judge" the knife many makers feel you are "judging" them.
Personally, I have never understood that...the knife is not the man and visa versa." Quote Les Robetson
Les, I have read through this entire thread as it has developed and had decided that I would not post, but man, do you really not understand how a maker or any craftsman finds it hard or even impossible to separate himself from the end result of his labor of love? Most makers I know leave a lot of themselves in every piece they deliver. At least the ones who make the really great stuff do. This is in part how their recognized style comes into being.
Paul
Personally, I have never understood that...the knife is not the man and visa versa." Quote Les Robetson
Les, I have read through this entire thread as it has developed and had decided that I would not post, but man, do you really not understand how a maker or any craftsman finds it hard or even impossible to separate himself from the end result of his labor of love? Most makers I know leave a lot of themselves in every piece they deliver. At least the ones who make the really great stuff do. This is in part how their recognized style comes into being.
Paul
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No "hit and run", as I don't make knives thus don't enter them for judging, thus show competitions have no personal bearing on me with the exception of the few I have judged.
I do find the selection processes of the different shows interesting and I do have some experience thus my participation on this thread.
So I will continue stating opinions here and will not contact Steve with suggestions as any opinions/views I state are general in nature rather than directed specially at Blade.
Les Robertson
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Hi Paul,
Remember the word "artist" is only half a word.
Paul, I understand why makers feel the way they do about their knives. What I am saying is that too many when you critique the knife and find flaws with it. It is if you are telling them they are flawed human being (and we all are...so that is already a given).
They get pissed because you point out what should be obvious mistakes. That bad mouth you behind your back...because you told them the truth. Or worse yet they just "assume" that you hate their work (and thus...them). Even though they have never talked to you and/or showed you their work.
These makers are the worst type of egomaniac..a Coward. Who make assumptions and passes judgment while at the same time lacks the balls to speak directly to the person they feel has slighted them (mostly imaginary in their mind).
I hope this clarifies my statement for you.
Remember the word "artist" is only half a word.
Paul, I understand why makers feel the way they do about their knives. What I am saying is that too many when you critique the knife and find flaws with it. It is if you are telling them they are flawed human being (and we all are...so that is already a given).
They get pissed because you point out what should be obvious mistakes. That bad mouth you behind your back...because you told them the truth. Or worse yet they just "assume" that you hate their work (and thus...them). Even though they have never talked to you and/or showed you their work.
These makers are the worst type of egomaniac..a Coward. Who make assumptions and passes judgment while at the same time lacks the balls to speak directly to the person they feel has slighted them (mostly imaginary in their mind).
I hope this clarifies my statement for you.
Les Robertson
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Kevin,
Neither does David or Brownshoe.
Neither does David or Brownshoe.