"Best in Show": knife judging

I honestly did not absorb all the posts in this thread, but I gotta say that two of my favorite posts were from my friends Terry Vandeventer and Paul Long.

The analogy of a Lab winning best in (dog) show based on the judging criteria for that show and not something beyond the scope of the judging is most excellent.

And in line with what Paul posted... while normally I feel that a JOB does not hold the power to define a man... a CRAFT and its accompanying pride can play a huge part in defining who that man is (or isn't). :)
 
Les, thank you for the clarification. I understand better what you meant now. I guess I have the tendency to view everything from my own personal perspective to a fault. If you critique me (my work) I will find all the positive and constructive criticism in what you offer and discard the rest and forget it and then act on the positive to improve. I guess I just think others will do the same. Your expanded exposure will trump my limited contacts on the subject.

Paul
 
HI Paul,

Thanks for asking me about this. I think my clarification helped me, you and others reading this.

I realize I look at a lot more custom knives than the average person. Often what is obvious to me escapes others looking at the same knife.

I always try to take into account the makers/craftsman's experience level. Trying to point out what I think will help.

As I wrote earlier...often times it is the skill (practice) of the maker, their machinery and their skill level on that piece of machinery that can make all the difference.
 
NickWheeler said:
The analogy of a Lab winning best in (dog) show based on the judging criteria for that show and not something beyond the scope of the judging is most excellent.
:)
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in the "hunter" category, is it safe to opine that the design has become a very standard form. Often a very "ABS" drop point hunter?
No changes very often design wise? (i may be wrong)
So my speculation/ question, would something new ideas (different) receive an impartial view?

Also, still beating this drum out of sheer ignorance i suppose. Can the actual better knife be the "losing" knife? I think Les would applaud me for this- he may be more handsome than many of his counterparts, but looks do not always equal the man. Just Look at some of the rest of us.. That's why we have "Old Spice" commercials. But there are other redeeming qualities too.

A scratch on an otherwise fine knife is a losing knife. "Best" means less flawed. No? Or has anyones knife trumped the others with more flaws, because it was outstanding in some ways that the others werent?
David
 
2knife said:
in the "hunter" category, is it safe to opine that the design has become a very standard form. Often a very "ABS" drop point hunter?
No changes very often design wise? (i may be wrong)
So my speculation/ question, would something new ideas (different) receive an impartial view?

Also, still beating this drum out of sheer ignorance i suppose. Can the actual better knife be the "losing" knife? I think Les would applaud me for this- he may be more handsome than many of his counterparts, but looks do not always equal the man. Just Look at some of the rest of us.. That's why we have "Old Spice" commercials. But there are other redeeming qualities too.

A scratch on an otherwise fine knife is a losing knife. "Best" means less flawed. No? Or has anyones knife trumped the others with more flaws, because it was outstanding in some ways that the others werent?
David
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For me anyway, it's not about what the knife 'could be' or 'should be' it's about 'what it is' when I pick it up. So yes, a scratch, nick, blemish depending on the severity and the strength of the other competition could take it out of contention. The burden is on the maker to insure there's no defects and the knife is clean when he/she brings it to the judging room.
 
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Hi David,

Can the actual better knife be the "losing" knife?
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Probably not. However, several years ago I was judging at the Blade Show. There was a folder with reportedly $45,000 worth of diamonds on it. Spectacular knife! Incredible Folder!

As the other two judges oohed and ahhed (as the knife had the desired affect on them). I started checking the blade....and I found up and down play (ever so slightly).

I handed it to one of the other judges and said "Your the High Dollar Folder Guy...is the blade supposed to do this?"

The knife lost to another folder that was probably $40,000 (+) less money.

Or has anyone's knife trumped the others with more flaws, because it was outstanding in some ways that the others weren't?
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I suspect this has happened, I just can't think of an example. Im thinking maybe one is just ever so much cleaner...but is not as well balanced. Something like that.

For me the knife's ability to function does come into play.
 
Well I've read through this entire thread and I feel the OPs original question wasn't really addressed - why can't the knife's cutting ability be tested as part of the evaluation process? :confused:

Surely there must be a way of creating a standardised cutting test for each category that will adequately assess the slicing ability and edge holding properties of the knives?

People test knives and show the results on BF all the time. Cardboard is considered a worthy test medium, as is manila rope. After slicing through these items a set number of times, the edge is tested on a piece of paper.

Why can this not be done at a show? Surely cutting ability is the most critical part of a knife's performance - and yet this is not tested in any way!

I am more interested in a knife's cutting ability and edge holding than any other aspect of it. Particularly in the case of custom made knives.
 
Les Robertson said:
They get pissed because you point out what should be obvious mistakes. That bad mouth you behind your back...because you told them the truth. Or worse yet they just "assume" that you hate their work (and thus...them). Even though they have never talked to you and/or showed you their work.
:D
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At a SHOT show I was in a manufacturer's booth waiting to talk to the media rep. when a knifemaker who was designing for them walked up to me. He extended his hand and said, "Bruce, I need to apologize to you, I've thought you were an a...h...e for years, and I said that last night at dinner with Steve Shackleford and a group of other people. Steve told me that I had you all wrong, that he had worked for you for 10 years and that you were not like that at all, that you were a nice guy."

I took the extended hand, muttered a "thank you," and wondered if there had been a better response. How on earth do you react to that?

Funny thing is he had never spoken a word to me, sent a email, press release, photo of his work, etc. prior to his apology.

Unfortunately this is not a unique incident. More than once I've been told of a maker who didn't like me, or the publication for which I was working, or a show I was promoting because I had been "ignoring their art" for years. Usually this was someone who had never spoken to me--and in many instances had never made a knife that any knife magazine editor would notice.
 
Buffalohump said:
Well I've read through this entire thread and I feel the OPs original question wasn't really addressed - why can't the knife's cutting ability be tested as part of the evaluation process? :confused:

Surely there must be a way of creating a standardised cutting test for each category that will adequately assess the slicing ability and edge holding properties of the knives?

People test knives and show the results on BF all the time. Cardboard is considered a worthy test medium, as is manila rope. After slicing through these items a set number of times, the edge is tested on a piece of paper.

Why can this not be done at a show? Surely cutting ability is the most critical part of a knife's performance - and yet this is not tested in any way!

I am more interested in a knife's cutting ability and edge holding than any other aspect of it. Particularly in the case of custom made knives.
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For one, chopping up a bunch of stuff with the knives will diminish their value. That's just a fact of life. A knife in new / mint condition commands a significant premium over one that has been used and scratched up. Who eats the cost of that if we subject all submitted knives to a battery of tests? Makers are having a hard enough time even recovering travel expenses from show sales.

For another, I can't think of a standardized cutting test that would apply to folders, bowies, hunters, daggers, swords and miniatures.

Finally, knife show awards are not performance awards - never have been. Cutting competitions exist to satisfy those who need to see a knife perform various tasks.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun to see someone hack into a 2 by 4 with a Loerchner dagger. So long as it's not my Loerchner dagger. And such a display would not be terribly instructive as daggers aren't designed to chop 2 by 4's.

Roger
 
Les Robertson said:
Kevin,




What did the maker do to bring their customers or potential customers to the show?

The same applies to the marketing of the maker and/or the knife after winning an award. Do you have Coop photograph the award, put that picture on your site (along with the award), do you let your clients know that you are now an award winning maker? Do you follow up the Re-Cap of the Blade Show issue of Blade with advertising (using your Coop photo) in the ad?

If not, why not?

The question isn't can an award bring you additional sales, etc. The questions are how are you utilizing winning this award into your marketing scheme? How are you utilizing this award to improve your position in this market. What are you doing to show the custom knife world that you (at least for that day) were in elite company!
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If every knifemaker printed out this statement, made a poster out of it, and put it on the wall of their shop or office, (and paid attention to what it said), it could transform the entire handmade knife business in my opinion.

Back in the Kansas City days I offered a free seminar at the close of the Knifemakers' Guild show on how to get publicity. Of the six makers who attended, three of those were my examples in the slide show who were going about marketing their knives and themselves correctly. Each told me afterwards that there were there looking to pick up at least one tip that would help them further. The other three did follow my advice the following month and never did anything I had recommended again.

If there is one great failing within handmade knives it is that most are not good marketing people. They wait on their ship to come in, when the reality is the ship is not going to come in unless you swim out to meet it!

Wayne Valachovic would always send a postcard to all of his customers prior to any show he attended telling them he would be there, asking them to stop by his table, and sometimes mentioning a special knife or two. During his active knifemaking he was one of the most successful knifemakers at any show he attended.

Mick Koval would always do the same thing, asking for huge amounts of show fliers to put in with his outgoing packages as well.

Although there must be a few others, I know of no other makers who have been this savvy.
 
sheathmaker said:
" Most makers I know leave a lot of themselves in every piece they deliver. At least the ones who make the really great stuff do. This is in part how their recognized style comes into being.

Paul
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Shortly after the first Rambo knife by Jimmy Lile exploded on the market, he tongue-in-cheek commented that he had a special series of knives with hollow handles, and he had left instructions for Marilyn to have his remains cremated, with instructions to put a few of his ashes inside each handle.

"That way everyone can have a knife with a piece of the maker in it," he grinned.

Needless to say when Jimmy died Marilyn did choose a more traditional method of interment, and alas such knives do not exist.
 
I remarked to Les Crawford at the NYCKS show, that I like getting his email with photos, and an announcement about his offerings for the pending NYCKS show. It came in a week prior, filled with promotion.

MY exact words to him (said in jest) were: "I got yours. There are 150 tables here, why didn't I get 149 others?"

His stark response: "Because they are not businessmen."

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
I remarked to Les Crawford at the NYCKS show, that I like getting his email with photos, and an announcement about his offerings for the pending NYCKS show. It came in a week prior, filled with promotion.

MY exact words to him (said in jest) were: "I got yours. There are 150 tables here, why didn't I get 149 others?"

His stark response: "Because they are not businessmen."

Coop
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Effective promotion is definitely an area where a lot of makers could use a lot of help.

Roger
 
"They get pissed because you point out what should be obvious mistakes. That bad mouth you behind your back...because you told them the truth. Or worse yet they just "assume" that you hate their work (and thus...them). Even though they have never talked to you and/or showed you their work."

Did you ever think that this reaction may more result of the way you tell the maker the faults in his work rather than what you told them?
 
Brownshoe;

Did you ever think that this reaction may more result of the way you tell the maker the faults in his work rather than what you told them?
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Perhaps your right, I should take into consideration the sensitive nature of the artist and use words that will convey the same message but in not such a terse manner.

Or they can just man the "F**K" up and/or take a couple extra Midol before they ask me to critique their knife. :D

Years ago I gave a "nice" critique to a maker. He then asked me "how many did I want to buy." I didn't want to buy any of his knives. He (and justifiably so) got pissed and told me he came to me because he respected my opinion. Then I gave him the "oh your work is very nice" crap. He of course was right.

I then gave him the critique he wanted. By being honest with a knife maker about their work (whether they like it or not) will in the short and long term help them. As they can start to work on correcting the mistakes.

This experience showed me that I have to be very straight forward with makers as (some) will expect me to purchase their knives. This is something that a collector doesn't necessarily have to deal with when they give a critique.

Funny story about Midol. The morning after I graduated from Air Assault school the Infantry Battalion I was in had a 4 mile Battalion run. One of the Captains in the Battalion fell out of the run and hid in a tent that some unit had up to dry out.

The Battalion Commander (who I was waiting to see...he didn't welcome you to the unit till after you completed Air Assault school.) Calls this Captain into his office and just rips him a new a$$hole! He then yelled to the SGM to bring in Midol for the Captain as obviously the reason he didn't finish the run was because his pussy hurt! Now I don't know if they were really Midol or not. But the SGM came in with two pills and a glass of water....and the Captain took them. Upon completion I heard the BN Commander say "Now un-ass my AO."

Lucky me I got to see the Battalion Commander after that!

On a side note....I never fell out of a run.
 
Silly me, I keep forgetting that there are quite a few people who buy knives as pretties to hang on a wall and not because they need them to cut stuff. :o

RogerP said:
For one, chopping up a bunch of stuff with the knives will diminish their value. That's just a fact of life. A knife in new / mint condition commands a significant premium over one that has been used and scratched up. Who eats the cost of that if we subject all submitted knives to a battery of tests? Makers are having a hard enough time even recovering travel expenses from show sales.

For another, I can't think of a standardized cutting test that would apply to folders, bowies, hunters, daggers, swords and miniatures.

Finally, knife show awards are not performance awards - never have been. Cutting competitions exist to satisfy those who need to see a knife perform various tasks.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun to see someone hack into a 2 by 4 with a Loerchner dagger. So long as it's not my Loerchner dagger. And such a display would not be terribly instructive as daggers aren't designed to chop 2 by 4's.

Roger
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Les Robertson said:
Or they can just man the "F**K" up and/or take a couple extra Midol before they ask me to critique their knife. :D
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I have watched this thread unfold and have seen a lot of interesting views expressed, thank to everyone in this thread for helping to educate me.

I had to finally post after seeing this.
I remember VERY well the first knife I showed you Les and you were not unkind at all in your evaluation.
you DID however point out a lot of flaws that I needed work on. I still appreciate the time you and other esteemed members of this community have taken to help me grow as a knifemaker.
unfortunately growth is usually accompanied by discomfort. if you can't handle that, you won't grow.

I have not progressed to the point where I feel I can compete with the knives submitted for judging but I certainly look forward to putting my work on the table and seeing how it stacks up.
 
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