Best value in a production knife brand

It's hard to beat a Buck 110 with a leather sheath from C-----s. 29.00 dollars.
20160523_110858_zpsnsgpe93b.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
jstrange said:
...Lastly, as much as some people hate Cold Steel for one reason or another, I really don't think it can be argued that they make one heck of a nice knife for what they charge.
Click to expand...

Lol they dont make anything.


But on topic the PM2 is one of the best values. Check out the HK AXIS if you dont mind an HK instead of a Benchmade. Its D2 and g10 with an axislock all for just about 100 bucks
 
Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread. Certainly a lack of understanding for sure. MJP, you say you are in business, but I would guess it's not manufacturing?

First of all, the first major difference in the cost of product is the country of manufacture. To compare a knife made in China to a knife made in the US is not realistic. I will try to share some info for you.

USA - $1.00 = $1.00
Japan - $1.00 = about $1.00 (although the price of the Yen varies and it could go from the $1.00 costing $.80 to $1.25
Europe - $1.00 = about $1.20 (although this also varies from $1.10 - $1.50)
Taiwan - $1.00 = about $.80 (Spyderco ships US steel to Japan which brings it to about 1 /1
China - $1.00 = $.18

I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for the cost of the raw steel used to make a knife in Golden. A knife being sold for $50 almost has to be made in China, regardless of what the maker says. This is primarily because the Chinese value their Yuan at about 1/6th of a dollar. (equivalent to a 3rd world country). That's why they are taking over the mfg world. Try to buy a coffee pot made in the US.

It is very difficult to make a knife in the US, Japan, Europe or Taiwan that would sell for less than $100. Makers are almost forced to make knives (or parts) in China to meet the market demands for a low cost product.

This is not counting quality levels which can change costs by about 4 to 5 times as much. These differences are just country of origin.

Equipment for knife making is very expensive. $800,000 for a laser, $500,000 for a grinder + the interest to the bank for the money to purchase this equipment. This is typical and doesn't add in CNC equipment, assembly equipment, etc. Labor at $20 / hr, FICA taxes cost the company 7% in addition to wages. Facility costs and maintenance for same (rent or mortgage). Now add in benefits (medical insurance, vacations, marketing costs (shows, advertising, etc) and the costs just to get a decent knife to the market is high.

D2 can be had for $5 / lb, CPM and CTS steels are closer to $20 / lb. some steels cost more. There is close to a lb in an average fixed blade and half that for a folder. Victorinox and Opinel steels are much less. Processing a steel like S90 can cost twice as much as 440C.

This is just basic info. If you need more specific info, I'd be pleased to share. I think the real issue is that the costs of mfg are growing and salaries or not. The so called "Hype" may be true of some companies, but not most.

Now add in CQI, new tooling for model improvements, close tolerances (.001 or less), R&D and development costs, royalties for designers and the toll goes up. I believe that most of the opinions expressed here are with little knowledge of manufacturing.

sal
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great post Sal. There is so much more cost involved in producing a good than that of the raw materials.
 
microtech85 said:
I thunk it is asking a lot to get a high performance knife for under $100 that is also us made.
Click to expand...

The Kershaw Knockout comes to mind. I've had mine for going on a year and a half, and my experience with it has been excellent. It has held up MUCH better than my Delica, and at a lower price. 14C28N beats the snot out of VG-10. The lockup is still perfect, unlike the awful lock pop on the delica. I ripped my clip in two on my Knockout during some canyoneering with it clipped to my back pocket; Kershaw shipped me a new clip for free, and threw in a replacement torsion bar too in case mine was tired. Centering is still perfect. It's american made, and doesn't get the credit it deserves.

EDIT: I see now that you mentioned the Delica in the context that it can't compete with the higher end knives like the native. How the knockout compares to the native is a mystery to me, but I would guess closely enough to make one question why Spyderco has so much of its production overseas and Kershaw/ZT have so much in the US. I've yet to hear a believable reason for why ZT pricing is more competitive for comparable products compared against Spyderco.
 
Last edited:
mjpgolf1 said:
How much more do you think it really costs to make any given knife? Go check out some of these knife makers sites that sell materials and you will see just how cheap knife materials are. Especially when buying in bulk. Knife brands are now just nothing more than hype and marketing. There isn't a production knife on the planet made on an assembly line that costs $150 more in materials than any other given folding knife. The process to assemble is basically the same no matter what materials are used when we're talking about quality construction. These companies all use the same basic equipment and source their materials from probably one or two of the same places. So it basically all comes down to how much can a company hype their product up to justify how much they sell it for.
Click to expand...

That's a lot knowledge. Can you cite any of this? I find it hard to believe that every single knife manufactured in the United States at a standard production level costs less than $150. Considering the American labor factor, which isn't exactly cheap, costs of goods, utilities, machinery maintenance, machinery devaluation whilst paying for these machines, insurance for employees and buildings and such, janitorial. The list goes on and on, all of which is factored into each knife made. Super basic accounting really. Everything comes from two places? That simply cannot be true.

As for the OP's question: Ontario, Buck, Cold Steel, Vic...redundant I know. Less we forget the Holy Grail....Ozark Trail ;)
 
The ZT 450 comes to mind, at $160. Titanium scales, American made, s35vn steel and bearings tick all the boxes. All of the people who have one rave about them, and of course KAI CS is up there with the best of them. That there's such a robust aftermarket of spacers and other farkles out there for ZTs is just icing.
 
When i purchased my native5 last year, i was totally impressed by the build quality. I didnt believe for one second that i paid too much. In fact, i wondered how spyderco could make such an impressive knife for the price. Btw, i bought mine for regular price at local retail for $160.
 
I think Mr. Glesser's post is quite interesting. On an economics type topic, I feel that we as consumers have a responsibility to the good of our country. I believe that we vote with our wallets. We should consider the consequences of buying discount goods. The biggest and most immediate consequence I see is the outsourcing of jobs. Companies that make a good product are almost forced to cut quality to compete with cheap imports, or they may have to outsource them selves as well just to remain competitive.
 
Great post, Sal...much love.

The OP is CLEARLY talking out of his/her *SS, ymmv!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread. Certainly a lack of understanding for sure. MJP, you say you are in business, but I would guess it's not manufacturing?

First of all, the first major difference in the cost of product is the country of manufacture. To compare a knife made in China to a knife made in the US is not realistic. I will try to share some info for you.

USA - $1.00 = $1.00
Japan - $1.00 = about $1.00 (although the price of the Yen varies and it could go from the $1.00 costing $.80 to $1.25
Europe - $1.00 = about $1.20 (although this also varies from $1.10 - $1.50)
Taiwan - $1.00 = about $.80 (Spyderco ships US steel to Japan which brings it to about 1 /1
China - $1.00 = $.18

I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for the cost of the raw steel used to make a knife in Golden. A knife being sold for $50 almost has to be made in China, regardless of what the maker says. This is primarily because the Chinese value their Yuan at about 1/6th of a dollar. (equivalent to a 3rd world country). That's why they are taking over the mfg world. Try to buy a coffee pot made in the US.

It is very difficult to make a knife in the US, Japan, Europe or Taiwan that would sell for less than $100. Makers are almost forced to make knives (or parts) in China to meet the market demands for a low cost product.

This is not counting quality levels which can change costs by about 4 to 5 times as much. These differences are just country of origin.

Equipment for knife making is very expensive. $800,000 for a laser, $500,000 for a grinder + the interest to the bank for the money to purchase this equipment. This is typical and doesn't add in CNC equipment, assembly equipment, etc. Labor at $20 / hr, FICA taxes cost the company 7% in addition to wages. Facility costs and maintenance for same (rent or mortgage). Now add in benefits (medical insurance, vacations, marketing costs (shows, advertising, etc) and the costs just to get a decent knife to the market is high.

D2 can be had for $5 / lb, CPM and CTS steels are closer to $20 / lb. some steels cost more. There is close to a lb in an average fixed blade and half that for a folder. Victorinox and Opinel steels are much less. Processing a steel like S90 can cost twice as much as 440C.

This is just basic info. If you need more specific info, I'd be pleased to share. I think the real issue is that the costs of mfg are growing and salaries or not. The so called "Hype" may be true of some companies, but not most.

Now add in CQI, new tooling for model improvements, close tolerances (.001 or less), R&D and development costs, royalties for designers and the toll goes up. I believe that most of the opinions expressed here are with little knowledge of manufacturing.

sal
Click to expand...


Great points Sal. You are correct in that my business is not manufacturing. However as a consumer there has to be a point of a product becoming too expensive for what it is. I'm sure you can appreciate this as a consumer yourself. I will say that as a value your company probably does the best in offering those knives like the PM2, Manix, Sage, Delica, Endura, Native, Gayle Bradley, etc. for a price point that is affordable to most and still providing good materials "g-10, CF, Good steels" along with good warranty. My complaint arrises when knives made with similar materials begin to creep up over that $200 range and sometimes even more. I would think that something so simple as a pocket knife made from a production line in high numbers can only be priced so high before it becomes a bit excessive. Every year they just seem to creep up more and more. I know there are costs that rise for companies and they most certainly deserve to make a profit, however when does it become "too much"?

Also Sal thanks for being so involved here. That is a big selling point in what knives I choose to buy when I see that the owner of that company is humble and interested in what his customers are saying. I watched companies like KAI run from here and even with Benchmade I don't see higher ups getting involved with "the people", so that is nice that you are still involved. Don't ever change that my friend. Some get a bit big for their britches and feel as though they are too good to hang with regular folks so it's nice to see. Just adds a personal touch when you buy a product and are able to interact with the companies owners.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
How much more do you think it really costs to make any given knife? Go check out some of these knife makers sites that sell materials and you will see just how cheap knife materials are. Especially when buying in bulk. Knife brands are now just nothing more than hype and marketing. There isn't a production knife on the planet made on an assembly line that costs $150 more in materials than any other given folding knife. The process to assemble is basically the same no matter what materials are used when we're talking about quality construction. These companies all use the same basic equipment and source their materials from probably one or two of the same places. So it basically all comes down to how much can a company hype their product up to justify how much they sell it for.
Click to expand...

Sal Glesser said:
Interesting thread. Certainly a lack of understanding for sure. MJP, you say you are in business, but I would guess it's not manufacturing?

First of all, the first major difference in the cost of product is the country of manufacture. To compare a knife made in China to a knife made in the US is not realistic. I will try to share some info for you.

USA - $1.00 = $1.00
Japan - $1.00 = about $1.00 (although the price of the Yen varies and it could go from the $1.00 costing $.80 to $1.25
Europe - $1.00 = about $1.20 (although this also varies from $1.10 - $1.50)
Taiwan - $1.00 = about $.80 (Spyderco ships US steel to Japan which brings it to about 1 /1
China - $1.00 = $.18

I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for the cost of the raw steel used to make a knife in Golden. A knife being sold for $50 almost has to be made in China, regardless of what the maker says. This is primarily because the Chinese value their Yuan at about 1/6th of a dollar. (equivalent to a 3rd world country). That's why they are taking over the mfg world. Try to buy a coffee pot made in the US.

It is very difficult to make a knife in the US, Japan, Europe or Taiwan that would sell for less than $100. Makers are almost forced to make knives (or parts) in China to meet the market demands for a low cost product.

This is not counting quality levels which can change costs by about 4 to 5 times as much. These differences are just country of origin.

Equipment for knife making is very expensive. $800,000 for a laser, $500,000 for a grinder + the interest to the bank for the money to purchase this equipment. This is typical and doesn't add in CNC equipment, assembly equipment, etc. Labor at $20 / hr, FICA taxes cost the company 7% in addition to wages. Facility costs and maintenance for same (rent or mortgage). Now add in benefits (medical insurance, vacations, marketing costs (shows, advertising, etc) and the costs just to get a decent knife to the market is high.

D2 can be had for $5 / lb, CPM and CTS steels are closer to $20 / lb. some steels cost more. There is close to a lb in an average fixed blade and half that for a folder. Victorinox and Opinel steels are much less. Processing a steel like S90 can cost twice as much as 440C.

This is just basic info. If you need more specific info, I'd be pleased to share. I think the real issue is that the costs of mfg are growing and salaries or not. The so called "Hype" may be true of some companies, but not most.

Now add in CQI, new tooling for model improvements, close tolerances (.001 or less), R&D and development costs, royalties for designers and the toll goes up. I believe that most of the opinions expressed here are with little knowledge of manufacturing.

sal
Click to expand...

And this why I I buy 95% American knives the rest spyderco made in Japan or Taiwan . This why I don't buy made in China knives . It has nothing to do with quality I'm sure Reate and Kizer are great but I'll pass .
 
Hi MJP,

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to explain how it happens. Prices are not "selected" at random. At least not at Spyderco. Price = cost to mfr + overhead + margin. And because of the situation in mfg costs rising, we keep lowering margins. At some point, we have to stop a model because the costs become too high.

The only solution I see is to "spiral up" with wages. Hard to do in this economy. As a country, we keep "spiraling down" for: lower prices - lower wages - lower quality - lower prices, etc.

sal
 
mjpgolf1 said:
Great points Sal. You are correct in that my business is not manufacturing. However as a consumer there has to be a point of a product becoming too expensive for what it is. I'm sure you can appreciate this as a consumer yourself.
Click to expand...
So, what exactly is your business? The biggest way that a consumer can express themselves is through their wallet. If you don't like the pricing on a product, don't buy it. I'd rather companies produce a wide range of products, including those you seem to think are overpriced. I buy those "overpriced" knives and enjoy them.
mjpgolf1 said:
I will say that as a value your company probably does the best in offering those knives like the PM2, Manix, Sage, Delica, Endura, Native, Gayle Bradley, etc. for a price point that is affordable to most and still providing good materials "g-10, CF, Good steels" along with good warranty. My complaint arrises when knives made with similar materials begin to creep up over that $200 range and sometimes even more. I would think that something so simple as a pocket knife made from a production line in high numbers can only be priced so high before it becomes a bit excessive. Every year they just seem to creep up more and more. I know there are costs that rise for companies and they most certainly deserve to make a profit, however when does it become "too much"?
Click to expand...

There is nothing "simple" about a pocket knife, even for models produced from CNC or laser parts. There is still an incredible amount of handwork that is done. Have you ever been to a knife factory? Your statement about "simple" reads as uninformed. Production knifemaking as an industry CAN be profitable, but it is also frequently a struggle to keep the lights on, I point to Schrade, Camillus and Canal Street Cutlery as an example.

mjpgolf1 said:
Also Sal thanks for being so involved here. That is a big selling point in what knives I choose to buy when I see that the owner of that company is humble and interested in what his customers are saying. I watched companies like KAI run from here and even with Benchmade I don't see higher ups getting involved with "the people", so that is nice that you are still involved. Don't ever change that my friend. Some get a bit big for their britches and feel as though they are too good to hang with regular folks so it's nice to see. Just adds a personal touch when you buy a product and are able to interact with the companies owners.
Click to expand...

Pretty much all of the owners of knifemaking companies are very humble, and great people to boot......and I know most of them very well. Participation on forums is NOT an indication of humility or lack of interest in the opinion of "regular folks". Many of the knife company owners simply don't have the time to be on forums. They are dealing with supply chain, logistics, HR, marketing/sales.....these are some of the more pressing issues involved in running ANY company.

You, my "friend", need to get a WHOLE lot more educated on knife companies, and business in general before you continue spouting off at the keyboard. If you have the means and time, Blade Show in Atlanta is coming up real soon, and would be a highly productive and educational opportunity for you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'm not in manufacturing either, but have been in the HVAC field for over 40 years. It is impossible to explain to a customer they'll be paying $450 for a $50 part. To the dude that says required tooling can't be figured into the price....he's wrong.
Sal spends $800,000 on 1 machine......that should be a wash?? Don't think so. It must be figured into the selling price.
To all the guys that KNOW how Sal, and others, should be pricing their goods.....you don't.
If you like it....buy it......but if you think taking $50 worth of materials and turning it into a knife is only worth a 20% mark up, you obviously have no clue.
Interesting thread, and lots of the posters remind me of some of my customers. They want to tell me what I should be charging.
Joe
 
Being that this is a hobby for me(and most of us, IMO), I approach the idea of value from a different perspective. Price is only one part of the equation when I'm looking for a knife. If the knife doesn't appeal to me, a lower price doesn't matter. I've got a Buck 110 that was a gifted to me about a decade ago that has never been carried. It sits in the back of my drawer. To me, other than the fact it was a gift, it's no different than everything else in the back of that drawer-it's junk(not indicative of quality of product). The lower price doesn't matter, as it's not something I'm gonna use.

To me, something that's a good value is something I want to own, use and enjoy. Would I ideally like to spend less? Sure, but that applies to everything I buy. That being said, I'm not basing my knife purchases on what's simply the best price.
 
Last edited:
Well said flipe.......pride of ownership plays a role also. Sure, my $12.00 box cutter cuts well, but I won't carry it instead of my Southard.
Everyone sees value differently. I play pool with a $3,000 custom cue. I shoot $1,000 air rifles. Some people say I'm nuts.....those same people spend $300 on a driver, they have 4 of them, and have a +40 handicap. I guess we're all nuts?
Joe
 
OP,

I'm sure there are a lot of "mjpgolf1" handles out in the world, but by any chance, would this be you?

Mike Partridge ‏@mjpgolf1 24 Jul 2011

check out this article! I made $350 today! http://ow.ly/5LyCY?zety

If so, I can truly understand your reticence to pay big money for knives, gotta keep hustlin'!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
REVDH said:
Lol they dont make anything.


But on topic the PM2 is one of the best values. Check out the HK AXIS if you dont mind an HK instead of a Benchmade. Its D2 and g10 with an axislock all for just about 100 bucks
Click to expand...

Most of the companies now outsource their products to various countries, pretending CS is the only company to do this is fanning the flames of an irrelevant topic.
 
Sal Glesser said:
The only solution I see is to "spiral up" with wages. Hard to do in this economy. As a country, we keep "spiraling down" for: lower prices - lower wages - lower quality - lower prices, etc.

sal
Click to expand...

Sal,

Thanks for being willing to join the discussion.

Could you say more about this idea of "spiraling up" in terms of workers' wages? In particular, could you reflect on the differences between manufacturing in the US vs in Europe?

To compare apples to apples, let's focus on knives in the sub $50 range. These knives are mostly made with fine blankable steels of varying quality with 12C27, 420HC and Aus8 being near the top of that group.

As a consumer, it appears that European manufacturers are doing a better job of competing with US manufacturers but they're doing that under a fundamentally different social contract with their governments and societies in which the companies pay higher taxes but in return get:
+ Release from paying health care costs (provided by a variety of single payer systems)
+ Release from paying other worker benefits (provided by more robust social services of European governments).
+ Benefit of a healthier work force (the US trails many developed countries in most health metrics)
+ Benefit of better educated work force (US the US trails many developed countries in most education and worker training measures)

There are confounding factors to be sure. Swings in currency exchange rates are obviously linked to the ebbs and flows of imported goods in the US.

And there are some basic trade-offs. My understanding is that it's easier to start companies in the US and European style social-democracies tend to produce more long term under-employment.

But one can't go to a local retailer, buy a Victorinox SAK or one can't get an Opinel or Mora, all of which can be purchased for less than $30 and not wonder, how can these companies produce knives this good for so little while paying their employees so much and guaranteeing such good social benefits?

Maybe the US has some lessons to learn?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top