Best value in a production knife brand

By Spiraling up, I mean that we must figure out ways to increase wages so we can afford to purchase without seeking the lowest price. We pay our staff as much as we can, rather than as little as we can. We provide good bennies and as much security as possible. I believe we need to do this as a nation. It does mean less profit, which we have to accept.



Not sure of the question? I don't think you will find many knives produced with high cost steels selling for under $50. A lower cost steel will be much less expensive to purchase the raw materials. But the processing costs can be considerably more expensive. Stamping vs laser cutting for example. The stamping equipment is much less expensive and can punch 5 pcs per second. the laser is much more expensive and may take 10-20 seconds to cut out a blade. That's a 50 - 1 difference in processing time not counting the cost of the laser. The same ratios will be evident in heat treat, grinding, drilling, reaming, polishing, sharpening, etc.



I can't speak too much of European manufacturing, as they don't have to show country of origin. When I did some investigating in some European countries, I found much less manufacturing that I would have guessed, and much more importing that I thought. Importation of both completed products and parts. Far more traders and services in Europe.

If you are going to compare knife manufacturers, especially with high cost steels, There are not many knife manufacturers in Europe making knives with high cost steels of which to compare. Of those that we do work with, I find their costs to be similar to US costs.

I personally question the quality of healthcare from single payer systems over what we provide for our staff. But that's just my opinion. I think that our education systems here could be improved quite a bit, but again, that is just my opinion. We have some great schools here, but not all get to experience them. In my opinion,, "whatever the problem, education is the solution".



Most currency swings are workable, It's the Chinese Dollar /Yuan difference that is too great of a variance to compete against.

I would tend to agree, but I have few facts to be sure. Gail and I began Spyderco with $250 in 1976. We were living in and working out of a converted bread delivery truck. I think it would have been very difficult to do that the same way and be successful anywhere but in America.



"Knives this Good" is a relative value. While I have much respect for Victorinox, Opinel and Mora, any of their knives produced in CPM-S90V would cost 10 times as much, assuming they had the equipment and knowledge to be able to process the steel. It's the cost of the exotic steels and processing same that carries the high mfg cost. Remember, these materials are very obstinate and resist change, so they are more difficult to convert from a raw blank to a finished blade. Also quality and close tolerance becomes more of a challenge. On our locks for the Native, we are holding .0005 requiring a wire EDM for production. I don't think that the above mentioned companies could match that.



I think all countries have lessons to learn. We've learned a great deal from the countries with which we do business. In the end, it all gets down to the end line goals.

sal

Hey Sal,

First off thank you for having a presence on this forum and actually interacting with us. I am very impressed with that. I do have a question. Based on the information that you listed regarding cost of production in various countries, what makes Spyderco choose to build certain knives and models in your Taichung Taiwan factory instead of the US? Many of your models from that factory use S30V and other American made steels that would bring the cost close to what it would cost if you produced the knife here in the US (based on the information provided by you). What goes into that decision other than cost of manufacturing?
 
Hi RuggDogg,

Our Golden factory is at capacity producing the current models. We're trying to add several models over the next year as we grow capacity. We added 17,000 sq ft last year and we're adding equipment as we can afford to. Our Taichung factory has capacity. They too are trying to grow their factory capacity. Our Seki factory also has a small amount of additional capacity so we're also trying to introduce more models with them. We also disco models each year which makes room for new models. Hope that helps.

sal

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The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
 
I will humbly admit that I've definitely learned a thing or two by starting this thread and it has opened my eyes a bit and also answered some of my questions/concerns. Obviously there is much more that goes into mass production knife making than I thought. I'm willing to admit when I'm naive to something and this is one area that I truly did not have the right information to form a fair opinion. I guess that's why we ask and post our feelings here, so that we can get a broader perspective of the topic at hand. I still think that some knives on the market are a bit ridiculous with their pricing, and I still think that certain brands base their pricing by gimmick marketing and hype. However I do have an appreciation for anyone who starts and operates a successful business. I will continue to learn and will continue to support these companies when I see something I want. I hope others have learned a thing or two as well.

Very well said!
Joe
 
My question is if USA knife manufacture have to charge more for a knife why are they sticking with MAP . It doesn't make any sence to me . USA knives are going to see some really tuff completion in the next couple of years . We Kife company is producing some amazing knives for a really nice price . I mean you are going to get milled out TI frame locks and super nice machining with great blade steel for 250 to 300 . Reate make some nice stuff and kizer has the budget line . I bought a benchmade 484-1 and the first thing I notice was the steel frame that they cover with CF . Priced at 250 they should have done insert the frame for $250 . That's what bothers me . I will stick USA made knives but I won't make the same mistake again .
 
Hi Miltmaldo,

MAP helps our smaller dealers compete with the very large dealers like Amazon & Walmart.

sal
 
Just a thought.. make your own knife and consider all the costs that go in, including time. Yes, production brands get huge savings in bulk materials and efficient machining, but some of those cost savings are exchanged for huge shop rents and wages for a large crew.
 
MAP helps our smaller dealers compete with the very large dealers like Amazon & Walmart.

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!

While MAP may be protecting smaller online dealers and brick & mortar stores, is it helping the End Line User and Spyderco?

The astute ELU is paying more and Spyderco is selling to the dealers at the same price as before.
 
Hi RamZar,

Thanx for the great videos.

MAP doesn't help Spyderco except for happier and more dealers. It was because of requests from our dealers that we began MAP. At 40% off, the ELU isn't really getting hurt and there are more sources available than just the Big Guys, which was the way it was going. I will admit that finding a balance is challenging.

sal
 
So if spyderco is not benefiting from MAP why put your self at a disadvantage against the completion . To protect small business . Still doesn't make sense . There is a small military shop by me and they have a lot of benchmade all at MAP they have been sitting behind the counter for more than two years they don't even have knives with the new box . And benchmade is willing to protect a small shop like that when they can sell way more knives on line and benefit from not having MAP . The funny thing about it they are next to the cheap Chinese made knives those sell fast .
 
Hi RamZar,

Thanx for the great videos.

MAP doesn't help Spyderco except for happier and more dealers. It was because of requests from our dealers that we began MAP. At 40% off, the ELU isn't really getting hurt and there are more sources available than just the Big Guys, which was the way it was going. I will admit that finding a balance is challenging.

sal

Sal if you are enforcing MAP pricing then why are some of my local stores selling a PM2 for example for around the $130-$140 mark and others are selling the same knife for around $200. I literally just went thru this at a local gun store that I frequent. I try to give them business but Amazon and other online retailers like bladehq are beating their prices by a big margin. I just don't understand what the point of MAP pricing is if some dealers are going to ignore it and try to gouge customers in an area where there isn't much local competition for them. There are only a couple Spyderco dealers in about a 60 mile radius in the area I'm talking about, so is this type of gouging acceptable, or is this something they should not be doing in order to keep your account? Spyderco knives aren't the only ones that are much more expensive at this place. They also carry Benchmade, Zero Tolerance, Buck, Victorinox, Sog, Kershaw, and even a few Hinderers. I haven't paid much attention to any other brands prices besides the Benchmades and Spydercos because that's primarily what I buy, but both brands pricing at this location is inflated by at least 20% over MAP list pricing and some as much as 40%_50%. This place has basically just become a showroom for me to try out the knife I want before I order it online at the MAP price. So what would be your take on these types of situations?
 
So if spyderco is not benefiting from MAP why put your self at a disadvantage against the completion . To protect small business . Still doesn't make sense . There is a small military shop by me and they have a lot of benchmade all at MAP they have been sitting behind the counter for more than two years they don't even have knives with the new box . And benchmade is willing to protect a small shop like that when they can sell way more knives on line and benefit from not having MAP . The funny thing about it they are next to the cheap Chinese made knives those sell fast .

I cannot speak for other companies. bit I believe that Benchmade's MAP is a much lower percentage off. Management discussed this question for more than a year before doing what we are doing. We believe it is a good balance for all parties concerned.

sal
 
MAP is Minimum ADVERTISED Pricing. If you want to sell a knife in your B&M shop for 2 dollars over what you paid for it, that's your business....but likely not for long.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
MAP is just the Minimum Advertised Price. Dealers can sell between MAP and MSRP. Actually, dealers can even sell below MAP as long as they're not publicly advertising that price anywhere.

I'm guessing that with MAP some dealers will end up with even more idle inventory. Last year I was getting many Spydercos at 45% off MSRP which is below the 2016 MAP. With idle inventory eventually you could find some slow-moving items (perhaps heading to the discontinued line) at 50%+ off last year.

Spyderco Sprints/Dealer Exclusives are and have been selling for somewhere between MAP and MSRP. For example, the Military CTS-204P Green G-10 which is exclusive to KnifeWorks is selling for $199.95 which is only 26% off the MSRP of $269.95.

I don't know where this is all heading. There are more knife makers than ever before and a dizzying array of choices for the buyer. Custom makers have theirs customs, mid-techs, plus collaborations with other custom makers and big knife makers. There will continue to be increasing competition from competent knife companies overseas specially China. Prices for knives keep going up with no small help from MAP.
 
Sal if you are enforcing MAP pricing then why are some of my local stores selling a PM2 for example for around the $130-$140 mark and others are selling the same knife for around $200. I literally just went thru this at a local gun store that I frequent. I try to give them business but Amazon and other online retailers like bladehq are beating their prices by a big margin. I just don't understand what the point of MAP pricing is if some dealers are going to ignore it and try to gouge customers in an area where there isn't much local competition for them. There are only a couple Spyderco dealers in about a 60 mile radius in the area I'm talking about, so is this type of gouging acceptable, or is this something they should not be doing in order to keep your account? Spyderco knives aren't the only ones that are much more expensive at this place. They also carry Benchmade, Zero Tolerance, Buck, Victorinox, Sog, Kershaw, and even a few Hinderers. I haven't paid much attention to any other brands prices besides the Benchmades and Spydercos because that's primarily what I buy, but both brands pricing at this location is inflated by at least 20% over MAP list pricing and some as much as 40%_50%. This place has basically just become a showroom for me to try out the knife I want before I order it online at the MAP price. So what would be your take on these types of situations?

Your local dealers do not do near the quantity that the big online retailers do. Less quantity means they need a higher profit margin to continue to compete. They are not gouging, they are offering you the product you want right now instead of waiting at a price that keeps them in business.
 
As a knife guy who has spent lots on folders before.... 1k customs and 5-600 for production folders.... ivve recently found myself trying to find better knives for the money.

The gb2 is the best bang for the buck production folder out (in my opinion)

After swearing off cold steel for years i recently purchased my first cold steel talwar. It has yet to be delivered but seems like a good deal at 80 bucks.
 
There are many choices on the market, the buyers vote with their wallets.

I don't buy knives from China, that's how I vote. For all the people who love the Reate or Kizer.....I just don't see lasting value on the aftermarket....that affects things greatly.

Prices on premium US knives continue going up, because in many cases, buyers demand new designs, exotic steels, and flashy fitting.

As in the case of many ZT knives for example, the knives sell for pretty close to MSRP, and then, when that special knife is discontinued, they sell on auction sites for MORE than MSRP.

This happens with Benchmade, CRK, Microtech, Spyderco......

There are PLENTY of values to be had for US made knives....Benchmade Griptilian, Buck 110, Kershaw Leek/Blur, Spyderco Native/Paramilitary...but those models are utilitarian and don't have "flash".

That "flash" costs.....collectibility, top quality or value......pick two.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The gb2 is the best bang for the buck production folder out (in my opinion)

Spyderco Gayle Bradley 2 is really a great case of getting more for less. The original GB was (still is) a great folder at MSRP of $279.95. GB2 is radically improved (slimmer, lighter, rounder) and costs less for $229.95 MSRP or at a MAP of $137.97 it has great value.
 
Your local dealers do not do near the quantity that the big online retailers do. Less quantity means they need a higher profit margin to continue to compete. They are not gouging, they are offering you the product you want right now instead of waiting at a price that keeps them in business.

Unfortunately for them Amazon delivers overnight and two day. So lots of their knives are just sitting in the same spot every time I walk in. They do have great pricing on guns though and they seem to keep those moving.
 
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