BladeForums 2024 Traditional Knife

[lambertiana]

How are Case, Rough Ryder, Marbles, Rosecraft and other far cheaper brands able to do it? If GEC can get some of the scales dyed end to end I would think they can get them all dyed end to end.

My ignorance might show right now, but I would assume that there are dying methods that get the dye deeper into the bone, so that when it is ground to fit bolsters you still see well dyed bone. I have bone handles from Case that are quite light where it is finished to fit the bolsters, and some that are still deeply dyed at the bolster transition.

 

[FLymon]

Well, that's a result of using traditional techniques. You will see paler corners on antique knives as well.

That would require them to mount a bone slab to the liner, grind it to the satisfying state, unmount, dye, mount it back. And they'll have to track down which slab goes with wich liner while slabs are umounted for dying. That is a realistic work for a custom maker, but not for the big production plant with hundreds of copies.

You have to have the bone pinned into the liner/bolster assembly before assembling the knife. As long as the dye process doesn't effect the metal in the liner/bolster/pin used you just dye them after fitting/jigging/shaping the scale, but before assembly.

 

[Alex.Y.]

How are Case, Rough Ryder, Marbles, Rosecraft and other far cheaper brands able to do it? If GEC can get some of the scales dyed end to end I would think they can get them all dyed end to end.

Like L lambertiana said. Plus some scales might require less grinding to fit, especially with the natural/pioneer style bone.

You have to have the bone pinned into the liner/bolster assembly before assembling the knife. As long as the dye process doesn't effect the metal in the liner/bolster/pin used you just dye them after fitting/jigging/shaping the scale, but before assembly.

I always thought that, as you mentioned, dying might damage liners and bolsters (and even pins), some components might react with metals and cause corrosion, and that's why slabs are being dyed before the assembly.

 

[Modoc ED]

Eric ea42 would be the one to answer this for us.

 

[Bluf6]

Oh Pshaw...it helps to be a complete Bonehead View attachment 2697430
But what would I know?

What say ye, Dr. Smith?

 

[lithicus]

You have to have the bone pinned into the liner/bolster assembly before assembling the knife. As long as the dye process doesn't effect the metal in the liner/bolster/pin used you just dye them after fitting/jigging/shaping the scale, but before assembly.

I believe you're at least partially (or perhaps completely) right. I do think that jigging often occurred much later on very old vintage/antique knives. And, on newer knives, I think custom makers (that do their own jigging) do their jigging later in the process than one might expect as well. I'm not sure how this relates to dye, but I'll try to tie it all together below.


When everyone started bringing up the bone and jigging and dye, I had a memory of a Tony Bose video that was relevant. I couldn't find it. But, today had better luck. The video below should be timestamped to 22min 15secs.

"Learn this. Look at that piece of bone. That's old Napanoch bone off a slimline trapper. They shaped it and rounded it over on the edges, then jigged it. That's the reason old knives don't have square corners on them. They shaped them before they jigged them."
- Tony Bose


I'm still not certain if Tony Bose was saying this was how he did things or if that was just how this example was done. But, I got the impression Tony Bose did it this way himself.

I think this is confirmed by some of his knives. Their jigging goes all the way to the bolsters; the very edges. However, if you tried to do this jigging after shaping while the bone was still on the liners, you'd end up jigging the bolsters as well. So, my assumption is Tony Bose and old knife manufacturers such as Napanoch first "shaped it and rounded it over on the edges", then removed it from the liners (my assertion), "then jigged it." If it was already off of the liners, I'd see no reason not to dye it after the jigging was done to ensure you didn't get lighter tones in the jigging. And if dying was done after shaping, you wouldn't get lighter tones on the bone near the bolsters (save for some lighter tones that might occur when polishing).

I shouldn't have to point this out, but just in case... GEC knives shouldn't be compared to the great knives of the one and only Tony Bose

EDIT: For example, not my image... but I don't see how Tony Bose could've achieved this jigging before shaping or while the bone was still on the liners. Especially if you look around the bolsters/pins. I also think it would be hard to achieve this result if you dyed before shaping or jigging as the dye is consistent from end-to-end edge-to-edge. This is what leads me to believe that Tony Bose shaped the bone, removed it from the liners, jigged it, dyed it, and then assembled the knife. And, per his quote above, at least some of these steps were performed by very old production knife manufacturers such as Napanoch. This would obviously be too expensive for a factory to do today. So, instead, I believe they jig it, dye it, shape it, and then finish assembling the knife.

 

[Leslie Tomville]

This is a knife Tony made for me. He would shape the bone, then jig it, then dye it. He told me he did that so the jigging would not be lost during the finishing process. Lots of makers buy pre jigged and dyed bone from places like Culpepper. You can always tell, because the edges are smooth without jigging with only the center of the handle showing good jigging. Tony did not like that. Because the handles were pre shaped, he also maintained saturated dye color through the process. He painted on the dye and then put the handles in a microwave to cause the dye to really sink in.

GEC can get a dark saturated dye color. Just take a look at Charlie’s Red Soup Bone Barlows. Charlie once told me that he asked Bill Howard to soak the bone for as long as he could in the dye or something to that effect. I cannot remember exactly. Whatever GEC did, it worked. But I don’t know how easy it is to get that result. Perhaps it runs up production time and costs. Or maybe it simply varies with the density of the bone.

 

[dsutton24]

It's a funny thing to see GEC and Rough Rider compared to each other.

GEC is obviously capable of doing reasonable jigging and uniform dye jobs. I also have GECs with the scale ends polished white, and with jigging that extends into the bolsters. I think a lot of these things are design elements, or at least I hope so.

Go back to knives made before 1970 or so. There were a lot of cheap knives on the market, they didn't typically have bone handles, and fit and finish wasn't a concern. Today's blade wobble and blade clash crowd would have a bad spell just picking one of these up. Better knives had bone scales. They were almost always well fitted, well jigged, and dyed consistently from bolster to bolster. This was an upgraded product, and I guess the master cutler on the job made sure these things were done properly. Materials like stag and horn were further upgrades.

So what?

There's really no point other than that I've seen a few things. Any time I get a chance I try to steer folks toward old knives, they will teach you a lot. If you need a knife tomorrow, or have to chase whatever the fad of the day is you're going to have to accept whatever knife gets shoved into a box and shipped to you. If you consider yourself to be a discerning consumer, but you gotta have it, you're going to be conflicted.

My own method is: See knife, like knife, can afford knife, buy knife. It goes against every How to Collect Knives article ever written, but it works for me. No conflicts.

 

[waynorth]

View attachment 2698041View attachment 2698040View attachment 2698042View attachment 2698043View attachment 2698045View attachment 2698046

This is a knife Tony made for me. He would shape the bone, then jig it, then dye it. He told me he did that so the jigging would not be lost during the finishing process. Lots of makers buy pre jigged and dyed bone from places like Culpepper. You can always tell, because the edges are smooth without jigging with only the center of the handle showing good jigging. Tony did not like that. Because the handles were pre shaped, he also maintained saturated dye color through the process. He painted on the dye and then put the handles in a microwave to cause the dye to really sink in.

GEC can get a dark saturated dye color. Just take a look at Charlie’s Red Soup Bone Barlows. Charlie once told me that he asked Bill Howard to soak the bone for as long as he could in the dye or something to that effect. I cannot remember exactly. Whatever GEC did, it worked. But I don’t know how easy it is to get that result. Perhaps it runs up production time and costs. Or maybe it simply varies with the density of the bone.

Wow!!! A blast from the past, Greg!! Tony sure loved Saddlehorns!!
I gave that Ebony Empire to Tony, and he prototyped it for a Case Collaboration!! A deco-style Saddlehorn!!
It is nice that you have a record of the WIP for your knife!!

 

[lithicus]

This is a knife Tony made for me. He would shape the bone, then jig it, then dye it.

I'm happy you were able to confirm my research and suspicions!! And what amazing pictures to go along with it. A fantastic knife, no doubt!

The one thing I didn't realize that is clear from your pictures is that Tony clearly shaped the bone without pinning it to the liners. Makes sense, but very impressive! I wonder if he used clamps of some sort or truly did it free hand...

 

[pvicenzi]

Where's my tracking number? LOL

 

[Leslie Tomville]

I don’t know for sure L lithicus , but I suspect he held the bone and liner together somehow, traced the pattern onto the bone, and then cut it out and shaped it. You can always ask Kerry KnifeHead . He saw it all!

Those are beautiful Charlie, waynorth ! They definitely led to one of the best Bose/Case collaborations.

With reference to this Forum Knife, all I can say is GEC has so many different jigging patterns. Some are incredible and some are not very nice at all. This one is a bit of a gut punch. Yes, it resembles the original rendering, but the drawings often look very different than the finished product. I have never seen this type of golf ball jigging since their first couple years. Of course it all comes down to personal preference. Regardless, I have rarely seen GEC produce anything as nice as the random pattern on the vintage knives we all love so much. I really don’t know why. Case can still do it. I visited the Case factory a couple years ago, and I got the impression they still used some of the jigging machines from the 70’s and before. Maybe that is why they can still do it. However Case currently also has trouble with dye saturation, and their jigging also usually does not extend all the way to the bolsters like their vintage knives.

dsutton24 , I agree with you. You just have to wait until they produce something you like and then hope you can get it and afford it. I have passed on many GEC knives because I did not like the jigging. They just seem to struggle with that a bit.


.

 

[Henry Beige]

I have not been following this thread, just jumping in late. I paid for my knife some months ago, but have not seen any acknowledgement of my payment. Is it buried somewhere in this thread, did I miss an email or something, or has it just not happened yet?

 

[dsutton24]

I have not been following this thread, just jumping in late. I paid for my knife some months ago, but have not seen any acknowledgement of my payment. Is it buried somewhere in this thread, did I miss an email or something, or has it just not happened yet?

I think the only acknowledgement would be in your PayPal history.

 

[justsomedude]

I don’t always love the forum knife but I do always love the forum knife thread.

 

[meako]

What say ye, Dr. Smith?

Danger Danger thread derailment approaching!
Ohhh button your bubble you babbling birdbrain dont start me. If you look close thats a Jonathan Harris autographed photo....a prized possession.

 

[AusLoX]

How many knives was Tony producing in a run with that method?

 

[lithicus]

How many knives was Tony producing in a run with that method?

I shouldn't have to point this out, but just in case... GEC knives shouldn't be compared to the great knives of the one and only Tony Bose

I certainly hope we're not trying to compare Tony Bose knives to those of GEC... This discourse started with complaints about the forum knife being light on the edges. This sparked discussion about why this is common on factory knives and what is required to avoid it. Tony Bose did it as close to perfect as anyone can reasonably expect. And, we can see from the discussion above exactly how much work is required to do that. It's not reasonable to expect GEC or any other manufacturer to achieve the same results.

The counter argument being made by others is that Case and even Rough Ryder are able to achieve pretty consistently good results. Why can't GEC meet that bar? I don't think anyone can answer this question, but it is also very subjective. It assumes you like the aesthetics of a Case or Rough Ryder's bone over GECs. While, in my opinion, some GEC knives fall short in the dying/jigging department, on other knives they blow Case / Rough Ryder out of the water; see Charlie's City Stock.

 

[Jiki]

The counter argument being made by others is that Case and even Rough Ryder are able to achieve pretty consistently good results. Why can't GEC meet that bar?

This is assuming that GEC sees this as a problem. As stated before some customers like, even prefer the color change. Some beautiful examples below.

 

[lithicus]

This is assuming that GEC sees this as a problem. As stated before some customers like, even prefer the color change. Some beautiful examples below.

I'm in complete agreement with you. Whether or not Case or Rough Ryder is consistently better than GEC is subjective. I tend to like GEC's bone. I also tend to like Case's bone. Saying you like one doesn't have to imply your distaste for the other. Both companies have good and bad examples in my opinion.