Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

Status
Not open for further replies.
Roy Batty said:
You can hurl all the insults you want, but I don’t know Spark, he isn’t my friend, and I’m not sucking up. Just annoyed by your little vendetta you persistently wage against the owner of a forum that has obviously been doing something right given how long it has been here and how many members there are.

You constantly have some issue with the owner that seems more like it’s personal, and your sarcastic remarks do nothing to address the seriousness of the matter and everything to detract from it.

Ironic, considering how much of this company’s service you seem to enjoy every day.
Click to expand...

“Constantly?” Oh, you mean the couple of comments I made in the other thread (where you white knighted there also) and now this thread? Alrighty then. :rolleyes:
 
Roy Batty said:
You can hurl all the insults you want, but I don’t know Spark, he isn’t my friend, and I’m not sucking up. Just annoyed by your little vendetta you persistently wage against the owner of a forum that has obviously been doing something right given how long it has been here and how many members there are.

You constantly have some issue with the owner that seems more like it’s personal, and your sarcastic remarks do nothing to address the seriousness of the matter and everything to detract from it.

Ironic, considering how much of this company’s service you seem to enjoy every day.
Click to expand...

You seem to have a personal vendetta against Quiet Quiet as this problem is something that many other members take issue with. Get over yourself, you’re not that important.
 
The Aflac Duck said:
You seem to have a personal vendetta against Quiet Quiet as this problem is something that many other members take issue with. Get over yourself, you’re not that important.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you and some of your friends here should memorize that last sentence and repeat it to yourselves anytime you get the urge to hurl insults at Spark.
 
Spark said:
We cannot police what people sell on their sites. That's not our job or place. We can only control what's sold here on the forums. Selling of clones on the forums is not tolerated. Selling outside the exchange areas is not tolerated.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that Spark's drawn a very reasonable line here, whether we like it or not.
Similarly, Spark doesn't go do background checks on us members to make sure we don't make our money through illicit methods.
Actually, luckily for some, Spark doesn't even require us to even have exemplary character to have an account.

Really what we'd want is for these clone manufacturers to go away altogether, but we're not going to get that. They're out there, and if they mistakenly believe that getting a dealer membership on a forum full of aficionados is going to boost sales, so be it. If I was Spark, I don't think I'd want to set a precedent of picking and choosing who gets the right to buy a membership based on activities outside the scope of the forum. He instead chooses a battle he can win, which is what products get sold on the forum, and forum conduct. Aside from what we'd ideally prefer, what practical impact does this have on us? I'm not really worried about getting enticed to buy some "clone" knife.

If I want a Benchmade, I'm going to pony up the money at one of my favorite Blade Forums reputable dealerships and get the real deal.
(and I do want a Benchmade... ;))

Let's not open Pandora's box and start picking and choosing who earns the right to pay money for a membership.
Instead lets battle unethical behavior in the way that matters- spreading knowledge and information.
 
.
EngrSorenson said:
If I want a Benchmade, I'm going to pony up the money at one of my favorite Blade Forums reputable dealerships and get the real deal.
Click to expand...
Here you have displayed the problem perfectly. Do we now have to choose the reputable Bladeforums dealer over the disreputable Bladeforums dealer? Shouldn't they all be reputable?

Further, the rules say that clones obviously hurt the hobby. What good comes from having a dealer support our community if they do so by hurting the hobby?
 
EngrSorenson said:
It seems to me that Spark's drawn a very reasonable line here, whether we like it or not.
Similarly, Spark doesn't go do background checks on us members to make sure we don't make our money through illicit methods.
Actually, luckily for some, Spark doesn't even require us to even have exemplary character to have an account.

Really what we'd want is for these clone manufacturers to go away altogether, but we're not going to get that. They're out there, and if they mistakenly believe that getting a dealer membership on a forum full of aficionados is going to boost sales, so be it. If I was Spark, I don't think I'd want to set a precedent of picking and choosing who gets the right to buy a membership based on activities outside the scope of the forum. He instead chooses a battle he can win, which is what products get sold on the forum, and forum conduct. Aside from what we'd ideally prefer, what practical impact does this have on us? I'm not really worried about getting enticed to buy some "clone" knife.

If I want a Benchmade, I'm going to pony up the money at one of my favorite Blade Forums reputable dealerships and get the real deal.
(and I do want a Benchmade... ;))

Let's not open Pandora's box and start picking and choosing who earns the right to pay money for a membership.
Instead lets battle unethical behavior in the way that matters- spreading knowledge and information.
Click to expand...
Well said! :thumbsup:
 
EngrSorenson said:
If I was Spark, I don't think I'd want to set a precedent of picking and choosing who gets the right to buy a membership based on activities outside the scope of the forum.
Click to expand...
There are direct links on the forum to the dealers website where clones are sold.
 
craytab said:
.

Here you have displayed the problem perfectly. Do we now have to choose the reputable Bladeforums dealer over the disreputable one? Shouldn't they all be reputable?

Further, the rules say that clones obviously hurt the hobby. What good comes from having a dealer support our community if they do so by hurting the hobby?
Click to expand...

Well friend- and I mean that genuinely- between you, me, this computer screen and the millions of people that have access to this post, there are already blade forums dealers which have less-than-desirable reputations in my eyes. To me this other... what's their name again?... Doesn't matter... This other dealer membership in question is just by degrees worse than my already unfavored dealer members.
 
craytab said:
.

Here you have displayed the problem perfectly. Do we now have to choose the reputable Bladeforums dealer over the disreputable Bladeforums dealer? Shouldn't they all be reputable?

Further, the rules say that clones obviously hurt the hobby. What good comes from having a dealer support our community if they do so by hurting the hobby?
Click to expand...

Who are we to judge who comes and goes based on conduct outside the forum? The forum is the domain. Spark can control this world and what occurs within it’s walls. It’s a slippery slope to take on the task of “arbiter of truth and character”, and rather clique-ish. I’d prefer this place not become some elitist club that requires a thoroughly vetted application for joining.

Let the rules stand for themselves and judge according to the rules and not “group-think intuition”.
 
EngrSorenson said:
Well friend- and I mean that genuinely- between you, me, this computer screen and the millions of people that have access to this post, there are already blade forums dealers which have less-than-desirable reputations in my eyes. To me this other... what's their name again?... Doesn't matter... This other dealer membership in question is just by degrees worse than my already unfavored dealer members.
Click to expand...
Sure, we all have our individual reasons for liking or not liking specific dealers. That said, the rules here are clear that this dealer is actively hurting our hobby and by extension this community. They hurt other dealers. They hurt several of the large makers who are pillars of this community, the hobby, and cutlery in general.
 
Roy Batty said:
Who are we to judge who comes and goes based on conduct outside the forum? The forum is the domain. Spark can control this world and what occurs within it’s walls. It’s a slippery slope to take on the task of “arbiter of truth and character”, and rather clique-ish. I’d prefer this place not become some elitist club that requires a thoroughly vetted application for joining.

Let the rules stand for themselves and judge according to the rules and not “group-think intuition”.
Click to expand...
This will be my only response to you in this thread. It is easy to see why you are here and I won't be taking the bait. Have a good night.
 
Look, I get that if you own an establishment and ban face-punching in said establishment you don't particularly care if a few of the folks that come in have punched a few faces on their own time and may continue to do so. There's nothing really to gain by losing their patronage. But if Face-Punch Sam, life motto, "I just love punchin' faces!" who everyone knows punches faces every chance he gets becomes a regular I think it's reasonable that a lot of people are going to assume your policy on face-punching has either changed or is, at minimum, a lot less clear, nor do I think it would be unreasonable to toss Sam out even before he has a chance to start punching faces.

Now, I don't run a forum and I don't claim to know anything about it. Getting rid of Topomart might be a much bigger headache than I can imagine. But I know I'm not happy with them here, and I know that I feel like I pretty much have to stop condemning clones and the companies that make them to newer members, simply because I don't know how to respond if they point out that they can buy them from Bladeforums supporting dealers.
 
craytab said:
Sure, we all have our individual reasons for liking or not liking specific dealers. That said, the rules here are clear that this dealer is actively hurting our hobby and by extension this community. They hurt other dealers. They hurt several of the large makers who are pillars of this community, the hobby, and cutlery in general.
Click to expand...

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying- I think if I went through the effort to weigh severity of the impact with the frequency, it would in fact probably reveal the net effect to be injurious to the industry. If I did go through the effort of trying to quantify that, I believe I would also bear out that the effect isn't as great as you might think. They'd probably do as much business as a pencil salesman at a store that sold Apple computer products.

I very much appreciate your passion- I find the existence of these clone products to be irksome. I'm tempered by the decisions Spark must make, which is the unenviable task of deciding what is justifiably in his domain. He's stated that he will not allow the sale of the knives to be transacted through this forum, which I think is (unfortunately) the most reasonable choice available to him.

As an exercise, you can try and quantify the impact you believe this dealer membership will have on this site.
  1. On a scale of 1 to 5 (1 being almost no one, 5 being everyone), how many people on this forum do you think would buy one of these clone knives?
  2. On the same scale (1 being never, 5 being all the time), how frequently do you think people on this forum would by one of these clone knives?
Take the answer from question 1 and multiply it with question 2. If that number is 15 or higher, I'd say that you are rightly concerned that this is a big deal.

My personal assessment would guess that number would not exceed 5, which is why I'm not feeling very passionate about trailblazing new territory, which here would be screening members based on things they do outside of the scope of the forum.
 
We don't want people selling these questionable items on the forum, but instead we allow them to advertise.
[link to your favourite ganzo here]

When one is to purchase a dealer membership, there is a disclaimer that reads: when a dealer violates paid subscription rules they will be banned.

Rule number 3 that applies to all paid subscribers states the following:
  1. Do not list items or offer services that are illegal. This includes counterfeit, clone, and knock off items. We don't want them here, period.
The service topomart offers, your honour, is selling knock off items ( an imitation of something popular ) .
I believe there is a violation.
Prosecution rests your honour.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Look, I get that if you own an establishment and ban face-punching in said establishment you don't particularly care if a few of the folks that come in have punched a few faces on their own time and may continue to do so. There's nothing really to gain by losing their patronage. But if Face-Punch Sam, life motto, "I just love punchin' faces!" who everyone knows punches faces every chance he gets becomes a regular I think it's reasonable that a lot of people are going to assume your policy on face-punching has either changed or is, at minimum, a lot less clear, nor do I think it would be unreasonable to toss Sam out even before he has a chance to start punching faces.

Now, I don't run a forum and I don't claim to know anything about it. Getting rid of Topomart might be a much bigger headache than I can imagine. But I know I'm not happy with them here, and I know that I feel like I pretty much have to stop condemning clones and the companies that make them to newer members, simply because I don't know how to respond if they point out that they can buy them from Bladeforums supporting dealers.
Click to expand...

Besides being hilarious, you do have a good point about the appearance of allegiance, which is a concern. Thankfully this situation isn't really that dire- it's like a bunch of folks enjoying a Christmas party and we watch one of the attendees stand up, go over to the punch bowl, and relieve themselves in it. We all know just what to do. I think getting rid of Topomart would be the easy part- I think the hard part would be establishing the precedent that we're going to start screening members based on conduct outside of the forum. If I was a gambling man, however, I would guess that Topomart might at some point give Spark and the moderators the opportunity for a ban.
 
craytab said:
Sure, we all have our individual reasons for liking or not liking specific dealers. That said, the rules here are clear that this dealer is actively hurting our hobby and by extension this community. They hurt other dealers. They hurt several of the large makers who are pillars of this community, the hobby, and cutlery in general.
Click to expand...
Of course, the owner of this site can make his decision based on whatever criteria he wants.

What I have learned by Topomart being a Dealer here, is that the "Paid Dealer Members" list is not the endorsement I thought it was. It simply means that those vendors paid to have Dealer level membership.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top