Brands comparable to busse

[bodog]

One thing that Joe brought up that is actually very important and extremely relevant was industrial use of steels. Once we start looking how they are actually used in the industry outside of knives and start to understand what the steels where developed for things start to get clearer.

The actual knife industry is a very small percentage of the overall steel industry, less than 3% overall and that's being positive as it's actually much less than 1% from the information that I have.

So actually doing some research into how some of the steels are actually used in industrial use and what they have been developed for could be enlightening for a lot of people.

For tools that have to cut a lot of material the lower alloy steels aren't used at all, they just aren't and is the fact of the matter due to the down time that would be involved in changing out blades/cutters and the down time that would be required.

When those machines etc. aren't running they aren't making any money so the less downtime the better.

In the mining industries a company can lose a million or more a day if their buckets' teeth break off or some other similar seemingly inconsequential thing. They may own two buckets per hoe because the buckets alone may cost several hundred thousand dollars each. One for use and one as a backup. They may be running only one several million dollar hoe per site. If both of those buckets go down, the company may go out of business. Industrial use of steel is far more important to them than knives are to us. When you're digging coal out of granite there is a whole different set of needs than cutting fiberglass insulation into roll sized strips all day. Both are just as important to the companies' livelihood and both are completely different in their attributes needed to do the job.

 

[Ankerson]

In the mining industries a company can lose a million or more a day if their buckets' teeth break off or some other similar seemingly inconsequential thing. They may own two buckets per hoe because the buckets alone may cost several hundred thousand dollars each. One for use and one as a backup. They may be running only one several million dollar hoe per site. If both of those buckets go down, the company may go out of business. Industrial use of steel is far more important to them than knives are to us. When you're digging coal out of granite there is a whole different set of needs than cutting fiberglass insulation into roll sized strips all day. Both are just as important to the companies' livelihood and both are completely different in their attributes needed to do the job.

Sure, a lot of research goes into what steels to use for those types of uses.

I was referring to cutting, high wear tools/parts etc.

 

[Cobalt]

Sure, a lot of research goes into what steels to use for those types of uses.

I was referring to cutting, high wear tools/parts etc.

True but there are lots of cutting industries. You have metal shearing or cutting, cement cutting/breaking, wood cutting. Some of the toughest steels have been the ones used in the cement breaking and wood cutting industry, ie, saw blade steel, wood chipper steel, jack hammer bit steels, chisel steels etc. I was surprised to find a few steels from industries that have nothing to do with cutting or high wear, yet they used steels that could easily be adapted for knife use.

 

[Ken44]

"Shiny Footprints"

Cobalt, you are a strange one.
*snip*
Get stuffed again.

Really, still with the insults ???
No need for it in this forum IMO.
You may want to work on that "Shiney Footprint" philosophy.

 

[shqxk]

I feel this thread gonna get locked soon...

 

[inkynate]

Busse is dead, long live Busse!

Came across this marker in a local cemetary today. The inscription reads "Immaculate Virgin, pray for us" in German. Seemed appropriate here

I don't have any Bussekin yet, but I decided to finally check them out and have some stuff coming my way.

 

[sodak]

Haven't talked to you in a while, friend. Hope all is well.

The challenge is in no way a stunt.
If a manufacturer has the guts to step up to the plate they would get instant notoriety if they beat Busse at a live test at Blade.
Their sale's would go through the roof overnight !

Don't think for a second that many haven't thought about boosting their sales/name by doing this.
They KNOW it would, but they also know they could come out looking pretty weak.

I also can't see why so many people get so worked up over Busse claims. Why bother ??? If you choose not to believe Jerry, or the many that use Busse harder than any knife I've seen, just move along to a brand you like, and one that has an owner and fans that you do trust. Plenty of other brands out there.

Hi Ken,

Nice to talk to you again also!

I'm not worked up at all, I just see some things that don't ring true and I'm saying so. Again, I like my Busse's but they are only marginally ahead of some of my other large knives in hard use (except for 3V), and they are significantly behind my smaller knives in edge holding.

So this challenge - IIRC, back when it was issued, it was simply a rope cutting challenge. Busse wanted someone to see if they could beat his 1861 (is that right?) cuts on rope in front of a live audience. That was it. No other aspect to the test. So when I now mention that I have knives that can easily beat it, the conversation turns to "well, they're not as tough". That's a true statement that I will agree to. But toughness wasn't part of the challenge, rope cutting was.

I think that it wouldn't be a problem finding someone to take on that challenge, but Busse says it has to be a knife maker. Why? Does he really want to belittle and possibly embarrass another knife maker in front of an audience? Real classy.

Here's the thing - 1800 cuts isn't a big deal anymore, if it ever was. That's my point. I simply think this is a ridiculous challenge, like a 50lb bench press. That's the point I was trying to make, and why I was calling it a stunt. I see a lot of people taking basically good knives and steel, and trying to turn them into something they're not. That's when I speak up. Just like Mora knives, but let's not open that can of worms again either...

 

[Lycosa]

fwiw- I was just at the local saw mill and sitting on the office desk was a box of huge chisel ground blades. The next time I go over there, I will find out which steel these blades are made out of.
Chisel Ground, Jerry.
rolf

 

[Ken44]

*snip*
I think that it wouldn't be a problem finding someone to take on that challenge, but Busse says it has to be a knife maker. Why? Does he really want to belittle and possibly embarrass another knife maker in front of an audience? Real classy.
*snip

We'll just have to disagree on most, and move on. I've mostly given up on trying to take up for Busse knives years ago,lol.

But I will say that I've met Jerry several times, and I do think he has class.
And I don't think he excludes individuals just to belittle and possibly embarrass another knife maker in front of an audience.

I think one reason he excludes individuals is because there may be many every year just wanting to do it. I doubt they have time to do it every year, much less with several every year. That would be some process trying to figure out what individual you would pick each year for the challenge too. Having it with individuals makes no sense at all. I would also think anyone that had a challenge would only want to have it with their competition, and not some random individual.
Take care.

 

[sodak]

Ok, fair enough, thanks for a rational discussion! I always do enjoy reading your posts no matter what. :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

True but there are lots of cutting industries. You have metal shearing or cutting, cement cutting/breaking, wood cutting. Some of the toughest steels have been the ones used in the cement breaking and wood cutting industry, ie, saw blade steel, wood chipper steel, jack hammer bit steels, chisel steels etc. I was surprised to find a few steels from industries that have nothing to do with cutting or high wear, yet they used steels that could easily be adapted for knife use.

One can cut stuff with a can lid if they needed to, but that isn't really the point though.

I was talking about use in industrial like in manufacturing/fabricating were the blades etc. have to last for a very long time before being changed out. When down time just can't be tolerated so the less the better.

As far as the wood cutting goes I worked in a factory and all of those blades were carbide tipped, used to run the main component cutter personally for years.

All of the cement cutting blades I have seen have been abrasive blades and or diamond tipped.

One wouldn't use any knife steel to make the landing gear for an F16 and that steel used wouldn't make for a good high wear cutter.

The steel industry is very large as a whole.

 

[Cobalt]

Hi Ken,

Nice to talk to you again also!

I'm not worked up at all, I just see some things that don't ring true and I'm saying so. Again, I like my Busse's but they are only marginally ahead of some of my other large knives in hard use (except for 3V), and they are significantly behind my smaller knives in edge holding.

So this challenge - IIRC, back when it was issued, it was simply a rope cutting challenge. Busse wanted someone to see if they could beat his 1861 (is that right?) cuts on rope in front of a live audience. That was it. No other aspect to the test. So when I now mention that I have knives that can easily beat it, the conversation turns to "well, they're not as tough". That's a true statement that I will agree to. But toughness wasn't part of the challenge, rope cutting was.

I think that it wouldn't be a problem finding someone to take on that challenge, but Busse says it has to be a knife maker. Why? Does he really want to belittle and possibly embarrass another knife maker in front of an audience? Real classy.

Here's the thing - 1800 cuts isn't a big deal anymore, if it ever was. That's my point. I simply think this is a ridiculous challenge, like a 50lb bench press. That's the point I was trying to make, and why I was calling it a stunt. I see a lot of people taking basically good knives and steel, and trying to turn them into something they're not. That's when I speak up. Just like Mora knives, but let's not open that can of worms again either...

Sodak, I think, but am not sure, it was 2771 cuts and that was for the basic 9. And for only manufacturers accepting the challenge, the fact is that any individual who wants to can perform all the same challenges that Busse originally stated on their own knife. I am sure that if the entire thing is done in front of a live crowd at a knife show it will be known and no one can stop anyone from doing this if the knife show sponsors allow it. There was a flex test, a steel penetration test, a 2x4 cut test, the rope cut test, etc. I do not have the numbers on all this, but it was a full page add in many magazines of the time.

Remember when Mike Turber compared the Trailmaster to the Basic 9 and how the basic 9 blew it away in every category? You have been around long enough to have read that. Remember when Noss was destroying knives? Remember which two lasted the longest?

As for Jerry belittling other knife makers, that is your opinion, but I know him personally and he is not the type to do that unless they try that on him. He did not target any knife makers in his test. In fact there were many knife makers present the day he did the rope cutting at blade. Bassed on your bolded quote you think he had no class in doing what he did. When you get to know him, you will see that is not the case. How many times has lynn thompson popped into the CS forum when people are arguing over something he said or a knife breaking? Never. I much prefer an interactive guy like Busse or Sal Glesser to Lynn Thompson, who I have met and talked to at length and I consider him a nice guy as well. But he has no time for his customers. I am one of his customers as well by the way.

 

[Cobalt]

One can cut stuff with a can lid if they needed to, but that isn't really the point though.

I was talking about use in industrial like in manufacturing/fabricating were the blades etc. have to last for a very long time before being changed out. When down time just can't be tolerated so the less the better.

As far as the wood cutting goes I worked in a factory and all of those blades were carbide tipped, used to run the main component cutter personally for years.

All of the cement cutting blades I have seen have been abrasive blades and or diamond tipped.

One wouldn't use any knife steel to make the landing gear for an F16 and that steel used wouldn't make for a good high wear cutter.

The steel industry is very large as a whole.

YEs modern saw blades are carbide tipped. You wont see cpmS30V used for it but you will see L6. Not cost effective to carbide tip wood chipper blades. Well a jack hammer does not use a diamond tip, and I mentioned that as well.

As for F16 landing gear. You never know right. How about H1 with no carbon. It's being used for knives. You could easily use 4140 for knives and that is one of the most popular super strong steels used in making tons of parts for all industries. It should easily outperform H1 at every task except for corrosion resistance.

I agree that the steel industry is huge.

 

[Ankerson]

YEs modern saw blades are carbide tipped. You wont see cpmS30V used for it but you will see L6. Not cost effective to carbide tip wood chipper blades. Well a jack hammer does not use a diamond tip, and I mentioned that as well.

As for F16 landing gear. You never know right. How about H1 with no carbon. It's being used for knives. You could easily use 4140 for knives and that is one of the most popular super strong steels used in making tons of parts for all industries. It should easily outperform H1 at every task except for corrosion resistance.

I agree that the steel industry is huge.

I don't think you quite got what I was getting at here.

But then that is usually the place and the overall general idea that always seems to get talked around or completely ignored for various reasons.

Again, manufacturing/fabricating were downtime can't be tolerated to replace cutters/blades etc.

People aren't stopping every few mins to strop/sharpen the cutters because if they had to they would never get anything done.

But then the topic always seems to go sideways when stuff like manufacturing/fabricating comes up because that conversation is serious and time is money so it gets ignored.

 

[Cobalt]

I don't think you quite got what I was getting at here.

But then that is usually the place and the overall general idea that always seems to get talked around or completely ignored for various reasons.

Again, manufacturing/fabricating were downtime can't be tolerated to replace cutters/blades etc.

People aren't stopping every few mins to strop/sharpen the cutters because if they had to they would never get anything done.

But then the topic always seems to go sideways when stuff like manufacturing/fabricating comes up because that conversation is serious and time is money so it gets ignored.

I understand where you are coming from, but you are using carbide tip and diamond coatings as an exaomple. I am talking steel not coatings. Not sure if you see where I am coming from. We are probably talking about to different aspects of the same thing.

Sodak, here is a quote from someone who was there:

I still have the board here that we used to make those 2,771 cuts. I keep it for some reason but now I am glad I did. The cool thing to remember is that while we were cutting the rope we were also making HUGE cuts in the board. In fact we had to turn the board over. This means that not only did we cut through 2,771 peices of hemp rope but we also chopped the hell out of that board.

During the test I removed the blade from Jerry to look at the edge. It appeared to be that we were not removing any of the edge but we may in fact be polishing it! Seriously folks even though we cut the hell out of the board the knife stayed sharp, and razor sharp just past 2,000 cuts.

I am not sure what this prooves but it is damn impressive.

My head to head test will be done very soon. I really want as many people here as possible when I do this test so there will be no question as to the results. Of course someone will not like the results but that is tough ****.



------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

 

[Ankerson]

I understand where you are coming from, but you are using carbide tip and diamond coatings as an exaomple. I am talking steel not coatings. Not sure if you see where I am coming from. We are probably talking about to different aspects of the same thing.

I tried to talk steel in the manufacturing/fabricating but you went right back to the predictable place were it always tends to go.

And that had nothing at all to do with what I was getting at or even the same industry.

 

[Lycosa]

The chisel ground blades at the sawmill were all steel. I will ask the owner how they are used.

 

[Ken44]

Why not just start another thread for all the off topic stuff.

 

[Lycosa]

Good idea, Kenny!

 

[Cobalt]

I tried to talk steel in the manufacturing/fabricating but you went right back to the predictable place were it always tends to go.

And that had nothing at all to do with what I was getting at or even the same industry.

I know exactly where you were coming from. By the way I have burned my fair share of lathe cutting bits. The reason why bits are small and not part of the lathe is because you burn them up quick. Same goes for saw blades. By the way I mentioned 4140 and you must have missed the point of 4140. That steel is used in places where you cannot afford failure, like a crankshaft. So you see, maybe you did not get my point since I was speaking in your terms. You would not use a tin can metal for a crankshaft would you?