Bring back Cliff

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Here's a short answer: No.

Long version: I defended Cliff plenty of times against people in this industry simply because I'm not a fan of the bandwagon principle. Cliff chose to repay that by kicking me in the teeth and directly insulting this site; at the same time, he conveniently ignores his own substantial role in the "problem" he decried. For that, he can go play elsewhere.

I'm moving this thread to S&S and any further commentary can be dealt with there
 
noss4 said:
Who is Cliff Burton ? LOL ....No truly I don't know who he is.
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Original bass player of Metallica...died in a horrific automobile accident. Very talented, but Jason is a machine, I tell ya!!

To the OP....read ALL of Cliff's postings...then come back and whine about how he was railroaded.

He did this to himself.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Spark said:
Here's a short answer: No.

Long version: I defended Cliff plenty of times against people in this industry simply because I'm not a fan of the bandwagon principle. Cliff chose to repay that by kicking me in the teeth and directly insulting this site; at the same time, he conveniently ignores his own substantial role in the "problem" he decried. For that, he can go play elsewhere.

I'm moving this thread to S&S and any further commentary can be dealt with there
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Thanks for clarifying. I think like you do on the "bandwagon principle" but was unaware of your history with Cliff and his behavior.

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I was not even aware there was a S&S forum until it was pointed out.
 
tomcrx said:
Thanks for clarifying. I think like you do on the "bandwagon principle" but was unaware of your history with Cliff and his behavior.

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I was not even aware there was a S&S forum until it was pointed out.
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Lots of forums here; took me forever to find the Pirate's Cove.
 
I am also a relatively new member who has read alot of Cliff's posts, including
those where he trashed some of the best knifemakers (IMO) in the business.

Instead of going back through his 17,000 + posts, can someone tell me if
there was a steel and/or maker that Cliff did approve of ?
 
He had his favorites and he had his targets and he was always willing to focus on minutiae instead of accepting that a knife is more than its blade steel. Ultimately, his unwillingness to play nicely with others led him to very deliberately insult the owner of Bladeforums.

Sympathy beyond that point is beside the point.
 
If I were new and wanted to learn about knives, or about how to make better ones I would focus on other makers and people getting their hands dirty doing what I want to do not those sitting in an arm chair doing nothing but reading and then feeling they have a grasp greater than those that do it everyday. Cliff would not hesitate to tell experts at Sandvik steel how to properly heat treat their steel for crying out loud! Sandvik!

He tried to school Chris Reeve among many other known experts in things that were so far out of line for a man in his position that its beyond ridiculous in my opinion to even take him seriously!

Don't get me wrong. I admire Cliff's wit and he is smart. Oh I'll give him that. The problem is he is book smart. Thats only going to get you so far and certainly not far enough to start telling those that have both book smarts and practical experience from OJT how to do anything they do.

I said it last night like this. A guy like Cliff knows everything, and can come off as the expert quite easily. So much so that if he wanted he could convince you he knew all about a musical instrument. Last night I said violin. Imagine a guy that has never played violin at all professionally, not once, but perhaps he has one, and perhaps he has picked away at it a time or two with his bow, but now he is telling conductors how to do their jobs, and other violin players the proper techniques for this and that. So go ahead and take lessons from this guy. Note he doesn't really even play that well himself but you decide to give us a concert. So I ask you, will the music be sweet or will it be sour? I guess when you get hit with eggs you'll figure out that you should have been taking lessons and listening to someone that actually plays the violin and can actually school you on how to do it from their own experiences and learning.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just telling it like it really is. You can ask Wayne Goddard or you can ask Cliff Stamp. But I know who I'll believe first.

STR
 
I often found his posts and the ones he provoked to be interesting to read.

I just visit the forum occasionally throughout the day for short periods, and a little longer once I'm home in the evening. I'm a fairly new member and as such have a simple version of the history of this place.

Unlike a moderator, I'm not absorbed into this forum, and as such have my own perspective on Bladeforums in general, and it's very casual.

I think it's serious business to ban a human from a community, especially one which the banned person obviously makes a focus in their life.

I'm not saying that the decision to put Cliff out on his ear is right or wrong. But in my view, based on my type of involvement in this forum, I think I will miss his presence here, (when it gets deep, I go to another thread).

There are lots of opinions in here that I find not only counter to mine, but super sketchy and some downright psycho. I don't think Cliff is psycho, I think he's argumentative and opinionated without a care of what others think, which might be construed with arrogance, (duh!). Psychos should be avoided, in my opinion, with more diligence than annoying people.

I have to deal with people all the time in my business, and I'm pretty certain that a guy like Cliff is harmless, if also annoying. I wouldn't kick him out of my store, just for being who he is. I learn to work it to my advantage so maybe he'll buy something;)

There's lots of guys who happily add little glib, glad bits to every discussion, and there's not much interesting to read into that tripe, compared to the words flying when Cliff gets in on it. Don't get me wrong, I think being supportive is good, but like I said I don't spend enough time in here to have conversations, so what do I know.

However, I do think casual forumites like me are helping Bladeforums to grow, and taking out characters like Cliff, (like him or hate him) who add a rare element to discussions here could diminish that growth. We'll see I guess.
My .05 cent's worth.
 
STR

I realize you are not being a smart ass. I just do not have the history with CS that a lot of members do. I kind of see him as the book smart curmudgeon around the checker game that is always being a little bit of a crank. Through all the crap sometimes a nugget of wisdom filters through.

In a world view, cheap (by our definition) knives have killed, saved and built more then any ZDP-189/Titanium/G-10 wonder ever made. We here are on the far end of the bell curve of knife users. We all try to analyze the wonder that is a knife and search for the perfection by trying to find objective tests and comparisons. We can't though, because we are so enamored by the aesthetic that all tests will be subjective and colored by our experience,geography,definition of use etc. I guess I just recognize the fanatic in us all when it comes to knives and see a little of Cliff in myself.
 
Look at the direction the D2 thread went after Cliff was removed from the conversation. It got down right useful and informative. Something it should of been from the start.

I'm not sad to see Cliff go I would doubt he'd be as smug and know it all in person that he is behind that keyboard.

Ya did right Spark, thanks for the great site.:thumbup:
 
You know I'm as sensitive to gang mentality as the next guy but I think we still can openly be candid with each other here. People want to now point fingers and say its gang mentality and a double standard. I don't see that at all. This was nothing like that. Spark didn't do this because of any gang mentality or because of popular opinion! Hell he has known how many of us feel for some time. It didn't change anything then now did it?

No and it had nothing to do with it now either guys. Kevin (Spark) and Blade forums was insulted and pretty damn badly with a good swift kick you know where and out of no where from CS. You want to lay blame look right there at the source and no where else. Cliff did this to himself. Thats the real blame and guy that needs to take responsibility for it right there.

Here we have a professor. A PHD making a living teaching and he can't even pay for a basic membership to support this forum but he chased off those that would have gladly and how many times?? Anyone? Frankly if it were my forum and you guys missed him that badly I'd say fine, go find him and you guys start your own forum and run it however you please. Spark need not explain himself for doing what he had to do. But I support his decision and even applaud it!

STR
 
If some of you newer folks here would do a search of Cliff's posts, and read a very good sampling of them, then maybe you'll really understand why he's gone.

He has been banned from just about every other knife related forum for the same reasons; read his posts.

Now that he is gone, we might be able to convince some of the heavy hitters in the knife industry to come back here to Bladeforums. Cliff drove a great deal of these makers away because of his hyperbole.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
This is where Bladeforums shows how far it has degraded since Turber left.
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This line had nothing to do with the question of D2 being brittle, it had nothing to do with the discussion itself, it was nothing but a snide remark targetting Spark and the website he's running.

And for what? This is Cliff's trademark, the off-hand insult, too minor-seeming to debate, so it goes unchallenged. And it drives off serious people.

It is a rule we enforce, that insulting a moderator will get you banned. Cliff deliberately insulted the owner. End of story.
 
I have defended Cliff several times myself as well. I believe he has contributed to the knife community in more than one way not least of them through sparking those controversies.

However, I think, NOT to ban him would be a double standart. From the beginning of this year (and I firmly believe that his behavior has become worse, or less resonable) he has been caught lying multiple times and we are not talking about little white lies here. Most importantly he has lied about his professional experience. He has also been proven to be inconsistent in his statements. He has called for example one edge from one manufacturer, measured to 0.020" as "obtuse" and way too thick while calling only days later a different edge from a different manufacturer, measured to 0.018", "generally a high performance edge". And all that while calling other people (the most unlikely candidates on top of that) shills.

Despite his contributions, I think it was high time for him to walk the plank.
 
Guyon said:
You have 34 posts, and you've been here since June '07. I hardly think you're the best judge of character when it comes to Cliff. When you're done reading his 17,000+ posts, get back to us with what you think.
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Being new also, with a limited amount of posts, I am not a good judge of Cliff or yourself; but this sounds like something Cliff would say.
 
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