Busse or Fehrman knives?

[PeterPHWS]

Vassili,

From looking at your post of the pics of the edge you can see how the sharpened V grind has greater depth towards the tip, this is usually indicative of a shallower angle being created from the belly of the blade to the tip.

A common occurance when using a Lansky type system...or in your case by looking at the video of your sharpening....by not raising the heel of the handle to compensate for the belly curve of the blade when reaching the beginning of the belly.

For the edge to have the same profile and strength the depth of the "polished" "V Grind" should be a constant throughout the travel of the edge itself. Otherwise there is a lot less "metal" at the tip compared to the commencement of the edge at the ricasso.

Think of it like the pitched roofs on a house. Your pitch along the flat of the blade is the same until you reach the curve....then you are getting much steeper....in effect building a roof on a house to the same height as the preceeding houses but this house is narrower in depth....just like the spine narrows towards the point. This gives a steeper angle of pitch and a thinner blade.

To compensate for this the height variable where the spine decreases in depth as it tapers to the point you need a corresponding increase in angle of holding the blade.

This should then give a uniform polished edge.

This is a Skinny Ash I stripped and convexed to about 28 degrees after sharpening a V Grind to 30 degrees and it has been the subject of many edge testing re-profiles since working out which is the best edge for my knives. For me a Convex edge of about 40 degrees works best. Similar to the V grind edge suggested by Spyderco in their studies when designing the Sharpmaker....

 

[Cobalt]

a equivilent size busse (ffbm, cgfbm, nmfbm) will cost you more then the fehrman final or extreme judgement. goodluck on your knife quest!

true, but after 10 years of hard use, one busse will have cost less than 4 Fehrmans

 

[1whobuys]

Nice try, but that is not any Game Warden like I'v ever seen!



.

This is what happen to my Busse Game Warden Blck/Tan G10

After few minutes on working with this wood

I was trying to get rid of many holes where crickets can hide from my dragon. It was not of course gentle cutting - I use it with force, but using only hands. However this is not steel pipe but wood. Dry wood of course, but you may see damage - areas of depression etc.

...I guess I was not patient enough to wait while it get sharpen back...

This is just an example, but in many cases I notice that Busse get dull relatively quick. Of course it is tough and may be used for steel pipe batoning as Noss4 shows - so to me this is steel you can always relay on and it will not break etc, but in terms of edge holding it is not the best obviously.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

nozh2002, as far as I'm concerned if the knife isn't in factory condition then it's modified. You didn't lightly sharpen your blades, you put a ridiculous edge on them.

The failing which you've experienced is not the fault of the knife, manufacturer or steel used. It's the fault of the user and the modifications that were applied. The blame rests entirely on you.




If you had started off this conversation with "look at the retarded things I've done to my knives, and now they're broken..." nobody would be arguing with you.

It seems like my fault was to think that 30 degree is normal for Busse as it is normal for all my other knives...

I learn my lesson no more 30 degree edge for Busse.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cobalt]

It seems like my fault was to think that 30 degree is normal for Busse as it is normal for all my other knives...

I learn my lesson no more 30 degree edge for Busse.

Thanks, Vassili.

you can't measure angles just like you can't interpret your own data. your angle is closer to 15-20 degrees

 

[Cobalt]

Nice try, but that is not any Game Warden like I'v ever seen!



.

Chuck, talking to this guy is like talking to the Berlin wall. He's got an iron curtain over his head.

 

[Grimspoon]

I've put a 15 degree edge on my Benchmade 710D2 using the Lansky sharpener, it's a very thin edge and I use it mainly for light work around the house.

The edge on my 710D2 looks nowhere as extreme as the edge you've put on your knife. I know the difference in blade thickness accounts for some of that appearance, but you've taken sharpening to an extreme.

You've now claimed that your other knives with similar edge modifications perform better than Busse?

The responsibility is on you to prove it.

For myself, I know that when I put a 15 degree edge on my knife, the knife is now a slicer, not to be abused. If I decide to use this knife to dig holes out of a dried out stump of wood, and the edge fails - it'll be my fault, not the knife.

 

[nozh2002]

Vassili,

From looking at your post of the pics of the edge you can see how the sharpened V grind has greater depth towards the tip, this is usually indicative of a shallower angle being created from the belly of the blade to the tip.

A common occurance when using a Lansky type system...or in your case by looking at the video of your sharpening....by not raising the heel of the handle to compensate for the belly curve of the blade when reaching the beginning of the belly.

For the edge to have the same profile and strength the depth of the "polished" "V Grind" should be a constant throughout the travel of the edge itself. Otherwise there is a lot less "metal" at the tip compared to the commencement of the edge at the ricasso.

Think of it like the pitched roofs on a house. Your pitch along the flat of the blade is the same until you reach the curve....then you are getting much steeper....in effect building a roof on a house to the same height as the preceeding houses but this house is narrower in depth....just like the spine narrows towards the point. This gives a steeper angle of pitch and a thinner blade.

To compensate for this the height variable where the spine decreases in depth as it tapers to the point you need a corresponding increase in angle of holding the blade.

This should then give a uniform polished edge.

This is a Skinny Ash I stripped and convexed after sharpening to 30 degrees like yourself and it has been the subject of many edge testing re-profiles since working out which is the best edge for my knives. For me a Convex edge of about 40 degrees works best. Similar to the V grind edge suggested by Spyderco in their studies when designing the Sharpmaker....

I think I kind of know how to sharpen knives and as you may see I calculate that angle at the damage point - it is 30 degree bit more actually because it is convex edge. Edge does widen to the tip - because blade itself get thicker but not too much. On that video I sharpen AD which has sharper tip.

Anyway damage happen on 30 degree angle (I think it is more like 35 on very edge).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[dbltap45acp]

Guys, how about we get back to Fehrman and Busse, not Vasilli's blade angle. Thanks

Just agree that you both disagree with each others opinion.

 

[Kloneducci]

good. now that you posted this. 1/8 inch bevel is only at the very bottom of the blade. As you move to the tip the width gets greater and it is closer to 1/4 inch bevel from midpoint on. So what does that make your angle, definitely not 30 included. More like 20 or less which is where the damage happened. makes sense to you. the width of your bevel is not constant, like most well sharpened blades. Yours gets wider as you go towards the tip. Big problem there. Again a screwed up sharpening job?.

why do you bother....Vasil smokes the wacky weed

 

[nozh2002]

I've put a 15 degree edge on my Benchmade 710D2 using the Lansky sharpener, it's a very thin edge and I use it mainly for light work around the house.

The edge on my 710D2 looks nowhere as extreme as the edge you've put on your knife. I know the difference in blade thickness accounts for some of that appearance, but you've taken sharpening to an extreme.

You've now claimed that your other knives with similar edge modifications perform better than Busse?

The responsibility is on you to prove it.

For myself, I know that when I put a 15 degree edge on my knife, the knife is now a slicer, not to be abused. If I decide to use this knife to dig holes out of a dried out stump of wood, and the edge fails - it'll be my fault, not the knife.

Width of the edge line depends on edge thickness. Busse has thickest edge on the market. Of course thick GW edge will be wider then thim 710 edge.

If you are interested on how different knives performs on manila rope testing (all sharpened to same 30 degree edge) - look here, I tested about 25 knives so far from different manufacturers and different steels:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Kloneducci]

Width of the edge line depends on edge thickness. Busse has thickest edge on the market. Of course thick GW edge will be wider then thim 710 edge.

If you are interested on how different knives performs on manila rope testing (all sharpened to same 30 degree edge) - look here, I tested about 25 knives so far from different manufacturers and different steels:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

Thanks, Vassili.

200 cuts means nothing to quality steel. That test is worthless. Call us and post it when you get to 2000 and the only steel left is INFI, and maybe 4 other steels..........

 

[Cobalt]

Guys, how about we get back to Fehrman and Busse, not Vasilli's blade angle. Thanks

Just agree that you both disagree with each others opinion.

Vasilli will not let it go. But you can read the links I posted earlier and that should tell you all you need to know...

 

[Grimspoon]

I just want to see how those edges look after nozh2002 has been digging out holes from a dried out stump for a while.

Cutting string isn't tell me anything I dont already know; knife edges can be sharp.

 

[thatmguy]

Vasslli, I am having a hard time with the assertion that the edge width is 1/8", given the relative scaling against/in relation to the rest of the blade.

Can you provide a pic with a ruler or some measure of scale against the sharpened area(s) on your blade?

I think this will help a lot.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[PeterPHWS]

Yes, I have read your tests and was suprised at the standing of Infi.....also some other steels....what I am thinking at present is whether there are consistant 30 degree edges on the blades because from your video you are free hand sharpening...and if you subsequently convex an edge it is very hard to get a consistant angle thereafter because this also has to be done free hand.

The other side to this ought to be that the higher a steel has been Rockwell tested to then the better the edge should hold....albeit 30 degrees is for me a too thin edge for an outdoor general purpose knife. However your results show some anomolies here as well.

What I will agree with is that a custom blade which has a custom heat treatment is likely to be able to perform to the best of the steels capabilities as compared to batches of larger mass produced knives. Some custom makers actually test each blade and give it a specific hardness....which also gives some comfort.

Here is a pic of a Damasteel Damascus blade and Titanium folder done by Mike Lamprey from England....this blade has the Rockwell dimple from being tested.

This blade can take a very sharp lasting edge but I would not go as low as 30degrees.

 

[Cobalt]

Yes, I have read your tests and was suprised at the standing of Infi.....also some other steels....what I am thinking at present is whether there are consistant 30 degree edges on the blades because from your video you are free hand sharpening...and if you subsequently convex an edge it is very hard to get a consistant angle thereafter because this also has to be done free hand.

The other side to this ought to be that the higher a steel has been Rockwell tested to then the better the edge should hold....albeit 30 degrees is for me a too thin edge for an outdoor general purpose knife. However your results show some anomolies here as well.

What I will agree with is that a custom blade which has a custom heat treatment is likely to be able to perform to the best of the steels capabilities as compared to batches of larger mass produced knives. Some custom makers actually test each blade and give it a specific hardness....which also gives some comfort.

Here is a pic of a Damasteel Damascus blade and Titanium folder done by Mike Lamprey from England....this blade has the Rockwell dimple from being tested.

This blade can take a very sharp lasting edge but I would not go as low as 30degrees.

wow, nice design......nice large pivot. Frame lock?

 

[PeterPHWS]

Yes, it is a frame lock. :thumbup: Don't want to go off track though.....

Just trying to say that scalpel edges don't make good prizing tools....and maybe put in some of my own perspective. I might not have posted a lot but I have knives of every type of steel....and like others am looking for what is perhaps the best for a given use...and I use them.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Here is a pic showing the frame lock and the clip. You can also see the Rockwell test dimple...on the ricasso nearly shrouded by the frame.

 

[nozh2002]

Vasilli, I am having a hard time with the assertion that the edge width is 1/8", given the relative scaling against/in relation to the rest of the blade.

Can you provide a pic with a ruler or some measure of scale against the sharpened area(s) on your blade?

I think this will help a lot.

Thanks,
Mike

Sure no problem, GW is relatively small knife so it is easy to get confused like this:

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. It was re modified of course - again to 30 degree edge.

P.P.S. Sorry it was other side. Here the same:

and you may see how convexed edge is - probably 1/3 of the edge is actually convexed shoulders, especially close to tip - where coating is just get scratched out...