calling Cliff Stamp...

[Ken C.]

Sounds like he wants to hear for himself, and isn't too concerned about other peoples' opinions.

I think that's refreshing.

Refreshing? Hardly. Those of us who have been on BFC for a long time know that Cliff's bantering is pretty old and recycled. If it wasn't for the uninformed new members calling upon Ye' Royal Backyard Knife Breaking Hack he would probably just go away. Which to most of us wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[BuckyKatt]

Hmm. In December 05, when asked the same question, Cliff picked the 710...

Which he hasn't used as of today.

 

[Eric Isaacson]

Refreshing? Hardly. Those of us who have been on BFC for a long time know that Cliff's bantering is pretty old and recycled. If it wasn't for the uninformed new members calling upon Ye' Royal Backyard Knife Breaking Hack he would probably just go away. Which to most of us wouldn't be a bad thing.

There are plenty of old members who support Cliff as well, we just aren't as vocal. I also find it interesting and inappropriate that a moderator is doing this name-calling (I'm referring to the "hack" term). I honestly don't care what you think but don't try to come across as the voice for all the "long time" members.

I guess you'll just try to classify me as an un-informed "old timer"

 

[MikeH]

As a retired manager of an ASTM-traceable materials and equipment testing laboratory, I find Cliff's testing and reviews to be as objective and informative as any to be found outside of a certified test lab.

 

[clone7]

I also like cliffs views. I have only been on bladeforums for over a year now and i find his post a good read. I say keep on posting cliff.

 

[Ken C.]

There are plenty of old members who support Cliff as well, we just aren't as vocal. I also find it interesting and inappropriate that a moderator is doing this name-calling (I'm referring to the "hack" term). I honestly don't care what you think but don't try to come across as the voice for all the "long time" members.

I guess you'll just try to classify me as an un-informed "old timer"

Call it what you will. Cliff is fully aware of my dislike for him and his "scientific methods" of testing. More than a few knife makers don't care for him and his testing either. I have stated so publicly on numerous occasions. A good number of members here believe that everything that Cliff says and does to a knife is gospel and they don't bother to form an opinion of their own. Just because I am a mod does not mean that I am not entitled to my opinion and I stand by my opinion of him being a backyard knife breaking hack. If you are not of the group that feels the way that I do about him then you have nothing to worry about. I won't hold it against you. I implore you to contact Bill Harsey and ask him his views of Cliff and his testing and opinions on S30V. You will be enlightened. Cliff isn't as half as smart as he would lead you to believe. He talks a good game but does he really know what he's talking about? Granted, I am no professor but then again, I am not a stupid man either. I know the value of a good knife and I knew the limitations of the knives I buy but I don't need Cliff to tell me that. I said it before and I will say it again...I would trust the word and review of a real world user over Cliff's reviews any day of the week, month or year.

 

[digdeep]

Here's another high five :thumbup: for Cliff. His reviews and information on steel have broadened my knowledge in these forums.

 

[J85909266]

Call it what you will. Cliff is fully aware of my dislike for him and his "scientific methods" of testing. More than a few knife makers don't care for him and his testing either. I have stated so publicly on numerous occasions. A good number of members here believe that everything that Cliff says and does to a knife is gospel and they don't bother to form an opinion of their own. Just because I am a mod does not mean that I am not entitled to my opinion and I stand by my opinion of him being a backyard knife breaking hack. If you are not of the group that feels the way that I do about him then you have nothing to worry about. I won't hold it against you. I implore you to contact Bill Harsey and ask him his views of Cliff and his testing and opinions on S30V. You will be enlightened. Cliff isn't as half as smart as he would lead you to believe. He talks a good game but does he really know what he's talking about? Granted, I am no professor but then again, I am not a stupid man either. I know the value of a good knife and I knew the limitations of the knives I buy but I don't need Cliff to tell me that. I said it before and I will say it again...I would trust the word and review of a real world user over Cliff's reviews any day of the week, month or year.

Indeed, a man that performs very well thought out and well executed experiments (scientifically speaking, not saying the actual tests are always that useful) with many knives over several years that stands by his results and always keeps a level head, regardless of the status and "real world experiences" (this is incredible stupid to me because a person's back yard is no less real than a battlefield, albeit much less impressive) of the person attacking him and his data is a terrible thing.

Yeah, enough sarcasm.

Seriously, Cliff doesn't do anything that deserves any ill will from what I've read. He is mature, he doesn't fly off that handle, he doesn't blatantly parade biases, he merely stands by his results and remains consistant even in the face of people like Mr. Harsey, which I find commendable.

The problem isn't Cliff, it's the naive members that immediatly take in his very imperssive looking and reading tests and become annoying fanboys, or followers, if you will.

I read the whole ordeal between Mr. Harsey and Mr. Stamp, and I wasn't enlightened at all. What I saw was an angry, offeneded Mr. Harsey being condescending and bitter, and using his reputation and position as some sort of advantage (even though that is one of the biggest and easiest fallacies to identify in any arguement) because Cliff stated fearlessly what he found while using his knife.

Now, if he would have bent under Mr. Harsey's reputation and denounced his own findings in the face of that kind of intimidation, then I would have lost some respect for him.

That's how I see it. Resorting to petty insults means nothing and only shows bitterness and takes away from one's credibility. You should consider that when you go around calling him a hack just because you disagree with his methods.

Now, I don't go looking up Cliff reviews every time I buy I knife. I know what I like, and I know my own experiences, but I certainly don't mind his opinion or findings, nor do I anybody else's. That's what I come here for, isn't it?

 

[MrPres]

This was a cool thread, thanks Cliff!

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Ya, agreed, regardless of the personalities, Cliff's reply was solid, and the reasoning of interest to anyone interested in learning about knives

 

[Boozoo Chavis]

Indeed, a man that performs very well thought out and well executed experiments (scientifically speaking, not saying the actual tests are always that useful) with many knives over several years that stands by his results and always keeps a level head, regardless of the status and "real world experiences" (this is incredible stupid to me because a person's back yard is no less real than a battlefield, albeit much less impressive) of the person attacking him and his data is a terrible thing.

Yeah, enough sarcasm.

Seriously, Cliff doesn't do anything that deserves any ill will from what I've read. He is mature, he doesn't fly off that handle, he doesn't blatantly parade biases, he merely stands by his results and remains consistant even in the face of people like Mr. Harsey, which I find commendable.

The problem isn't Cliff, it's the naive members that immediatly take in his very imperssive looking and reading tests and become annoying fanboys, or followers, if you will.

I read the whole ordeal between Mr. Harsey and Mr. Stamp, and I wasn't enlightened at all. What I saw was an angry, offeneded Mr. Harsey being condescending and bitter, and using his reputation and position as some sort of advantage (even though that is one of the biggest and easiest fallacies to identify in any arguement) because Cliff stated fearlessly what he found while using his knife.

Now, if he would have bent under Mr. Harsey's reputation and denounced his own findings in the face of that kind of intimidation, then I would have lost some respect for him. That's how I see it.

Resorting to petty insults means nothing and only shows bitterness and takes away from one's credibility. You should consider that when you go around calling him a hack just because you disagree with his methods.

Now, I don't go looking up Cliff reviews every time I buy I knife. I know what I like, and I know my own experiences, but I certainly don't mind his opinion or findings, nor do I anybody else's. That's what I come here for, isn't it?

Excellent post, J85909266 - especially the bolded part. I'm always surprised at at how well Mr. Stamp maintains his composure in spite of all the petty name calling he has to endure .

Now if you want to see a reaaaally interesting thread get a sandwich and a beverage and check out the Cliff Stamp - Ed Fowler fandango from back in 2003. It's a good (long-15 pgs) read with lots of drama, all the usual name calling, and a twist of an ending that no one expected. (hint: by the end of the thread the silence of all the Cliff haters is deafening )

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257608&highlight=FOWLER

 

[OilMan]

There are plenty of old members who support Cliff as well, we just aren't as vocal. I also find it interesting and inappropriate that a moderator is doing this name-calling (I'm referring to the "hack" term). I honestly don't care what you think but don't try to come across as the voice for all the "long time" members.

I guess you'll just try to classify me as an un-informed "old timer"

Ditto. Well said. Some people just like to consistantly thread crap... Til they start doing testing of their own they should just pass the thread instead of stopping to dump off more crap.
And it's not cool to trash mods Ken but when that mod has the same old broken record derogatory comments EVERY TIME anyone is interested in someone elses opinion they should expect some backlash themselves.

oil

 

[Dog of War]

..... Those of us who have been on BFC for a long time know that Cliff's bantering is pretty old and recycled.....

I don't feel that's a fair argument KV .... you could say the same thing of anybody with a good deal of experience who's been involved on discussion forums for a number of years.

A new guy comes along, expresses an opinion, and some are going to say, "Your experience is limited, your opinion isn't as informed." Now at the other end we're going to say, "You've been doing this so long it's old and recycled" .... ??? So who's the arbiter of what amounts to just the right amount of experience, and which opinions are too green and which are too ripe?

Besides the original poster is fairly new (I think ....?) and asked a very broad question, I assume interested in Cliff's opinion based on his broad experience. I'm actually surprised Cliff went to the trouble of putting together the reply he did which is very broad in scope and covers a lot of ground. A lot of us I suspect appreciate Cliff's work and his willingness to answer questions he's undoubtedly addressed many, many times before. How can you criticize a guy for being helpful and answering questions asked of him?

 

[Ken C.]

The problem here is that the new members ask for his opinion and only his opinion. There are over 55,000 members on this forum. Others besides Cliff are qualified to make an assessment of a knifes ability. What makes him the guru? Because he holds a degree he knows more than those who don't? Please.

If the original poster asked the question to the whole of the membership he would have received a broader perspective on peoples likes and dislikes and I would not have a problem if Cliff jumped in.

How can you criticize a guy for being helpful and answering questions asked of him?

Very easily when he compares every knife he tests to an axe. I don't agree with his methods of testing when they go far above and beyond what a knife is designed to do and then badmouths the maker when the knife fails after the knifemaker lets you know what his knife is capable of. That's why I don't like Cliff.

 

[OilMan]

The problem here is that the new members ask for his opinion and only his opinion. There are over 55,000 members on this forum. Others besides Cliff are qualified to make an assessment of a knifes ability. What makes him the guru? Because he holds a degree he knows more than those who don't? Please.

Ya, but nobody asked anyone else's opinion about it, they asked Cliff. Are you jealous of the attention? Who would you pick to ask such questions and why is your opinion of who to ask any better than anyone elses? Pah lease...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you don't mind, what did it run you?

Phil has chosen to not put up his prices on his website, you can contact him for specifics, the prices are really low, the price of the South Fork is actually so low it is absurd. What a lot of people don't realize is the amount of work he does both in evaluating the geometry and the steel.

He doesn't just take a new steel, run a stock heat treating on the existing geometry, he checks the profile to make sure it is optimal, will experiment with different soaks and tempers to find the optimal hardness. He even has a friend verify the cutting tests and compares his results to make sure he is being objective.

It is really refreshing to work with someone like that, awhile ago when I was discussing problems with S30V, he took one of his knives and did really harsh cutting until the edge was damaged and then we went over the results, what it took, the extent of the damage, etc. . It really is a large part of his knifemaking time and it shows in his knives.

Hmm. In December 05, when asked the same question, Cliff picked the 710...

Which he hasn't used as of today.

What I actually said was similar to the above, but more specific as I was only considering one knife where as the above are five fairly different types :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3422524&postcount=7

I have used Benchmade's M2 and the axis lock, as I noted in the above I have not used the 710, but I still rank it very highly because of the features I am familiar with and commentary from guys like Joe and Steve who have worked with it extensively and have been very critical of knives in the past so their praise of it is meaningful.

I'm always surprised at at how well Mr. Stamp maintains his composure in spite of all the petty name calling he has to endure .

Once you realize the goal it is fairly trivial to ignore, ad hominem arguements are used by people without the ability to use fact or logic, it is an open admittion that thier viewpoint is baseless, why should that bother you.

K. V. is the same person who said :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3049175&postcount=16

and yet he calls other people uniformed about knives, and is quite willing to spam that label across everyone who doesn't agree with him, which again is just absurd. At some point the irony is so high that I often if it isn't Thom because they arguements really can't be taken seriously.

What makes him the guru?

Divine mandate, I thought that was obvious, didn't you get the memo?

Very easily when he compares every knife he tests to an axe.

I don't. A lot of the early knives I reviewed were large, khukuris, bolos, bowies, etc., so chopping was a significant part of it, you don't buy an 18" Ang Khola for whittling. Knives like the South Fork which are mainly cutting tools don't have a lot of such work done with them, the reviews are mainly about cutting (shocker) :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/south_fork.html

That one isn't done, but it is halfway there, enough to show what a current review looks like. They constantly change as I figure out better ways to do thing. The old ones get rewritten on a semi-regular basis to clean them up, about half of them are where I want them to be.

...badmouths the maker when the knife fails ...

I don't, I talk about the knives.

As for opinion, this is the other nonsensical part, commentary on knives isn't just opinion, the work Mike Swaim did with cutting ability influenced by angle and grit wasn't an opinion, the work Joe Talmadge and Steve Harvey did on liner locks isn't opinion, what Jeff Clark has written about sharpening isn't just opinion. Some things are opinion, for example if I asked HoB if a natural japanese stone "feels" better than a synthetic that is opinion and would change depending on who you ask, however if I asked him about the cutting speed vs arkansas stones it would not be opinion then. Most reviews have parts that are subjective and parts that are not. You can easily write a review either way, Kevin Cashen awhile ago noted that you can easily define objective standards for performance of knives and thus by performing those tests give knives a rating which has nothing to do with opinion. But then again he is just another one of the uninformed people who doesn't share your opinion of me.

-Cliff

 

[Ken C.]

Ya, but nobody asked anyone else's opinion about it, they asked Cliff. Are you jealous of the attention? Who would you pick to ask such questions and why is your opinion of who to ask any better than anyone elses? Pah lease...

Emailing Cliff would have been fine if he was seeking only his opinion. He brought it to the forum and excluded others who may have had something to add.

Attention? Uh, no. Sorry.

Anyone can ask what they want and anyone on this forum could have answered the vague question that was asked.

Picking and pulling single posts again, huh, Cliff? That was one instance where I didn't get to involved and should have been clearer in my thinking. I know alot more than you think about knives having used and carried numerous knives over the past 20 years. 8 of those years spent in the military in some harsh conditions. With the little knifemaking skills that I have I could get the bumper of Yugo to perform well as a knife if I wanted to. You probably could as well.

You and I will never agree on anything. That much we can agree on. Tell you what, you keep breaking knives. I'll just sit here and wait until you anger a few more knifemakers.

 

[Dog of War]

The problem here is that the new members ask for his opinion and only his opinion. There are over 55,000 members on this forum. Others besides Cliff are qualified to make an assessment of a knifes ability. What makes him the guru? Because he holds a degree he knows more than those who don't? Please.

If the original poster asked the question to the whole of the membership he would have received a broader perspective on peoples likes and dislikes and I would not have a problem if Cliff jumped in.

I can see your point on this .... but the fact is you didn't take the original poster to task, you were critical of Cliff. Is Cliff responsible for somebody using the forum to ask him a question?

Very easily when he compares every knife he tests to an axe....

I guess I missed his comparisons of the 1095 paring/utility blade and ZDP-189 Caly Jr. with the Gransfors Brux.

 

[db]

"Cliff posted...
Originally Posted by Halfneck
If you don't mind, what did it run you?

Phil has chosen to not put up his prices on his website, you can contact him for specifics, "

He didn’t ask what Phil charged. He asked what IT RAN YOU. Yes, I’m suggesting what a knife costs you, Cliff, influences your Opinions wither your willing to admit it or not. And if it doesn’t you shouldn’t have a problem letting us know knives not paid for through the regular retail basis. Discounts, free and/or full price are all facts that are part of a scientific test, and or back yard hack test.

 

[DaveH]

I typed this often enough I should make it a keyboard macro:

All those that complain about Cliff and his tests should start doing their own or quit complaining. No one has though, so I guess it's easier to complain about someone then actually trying to do it better themselves. :jerkit: